PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pictures

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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Mechniki » 14 Jan 2019, 17:09

"Powerful Jump Starter:This jump starter is able to jump start up to 4.0L petrol,motorcycles or 2.5L diesel engine up to 15 times and it's 12000mAh polymer lithium battery with 600 crank amps.LIMITED TIME HOLIDAY PROMOTION"
You can get one for the promotional offer
It doesn't say it could go boom - I was going to set it up as a reserve power supply, just in case..
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jan 2019, 17:28

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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Mechniki » 14 Jan 2019, 17:37

Thanks BM
Guess it could get a little warmer.
I am not great when it comes to understanding tech, i'm a bit of a luddite. Mechanical stuff I understand. So I guess I need to go back to post 1 and read through them again. Then get someone else to explain them. :wave:
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Mechniki » 14 Jan 2019, 22:09

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So in theory I could just change the Lipo for lithium ion for a better result? cheaper too
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby ex-Gooserider » 15 Jan 2019, 01:40

NO!!!! Different battery chemistry, different voltages etc. so you would have MAJOR problems if you just tried to swap out the LiPo cells for LiFePO4 cells....

You would be much better off to pass those boosters to someone else, and build a proper LiFePO4 based add-on or just do a total conversion, with a PL8 charger and so on as described earlier in this thread...

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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jan 2019, 01:48

And buy new lead batteries that are both high quality and charge correctly.
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby shirley_hkg » 15 Jan 2019, 03:45

Where did he learn that dangerous treat ? :ban
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Scooterman » 15 Jan 2019, 15:32

shirley_hkg wrote: Where did he learn that dangerous treat ? :ban

:lol:
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Mechniki » 15 Jan 2019, 16:31

ex-Gooserider wrote:NO!!!! Different battery chemistry, different voltages etc. so you would have MAJOR problems if you just tried to swap out the LiPo cells for LiFePO4 cells....

You would be much better off to pass those boosters to someone else, and build a proper LiFePO4 based add-on or just do a total conversion, with a PL8 charger and so on as described earlier in this thread...

ex-Gooserider

i guess I don't understand it at all even with pictures, charts, diagrams. If the voltage is the same. 3 x 3.7v = 11.1 the only difference is amps, and if the specified amperes are the same, why wouldn't it work. The device would use the same charger except the new batteries wouldn't blow up. Or could they

When things are over complicated I need to see, physically see to duplicate. Not everyone can afford to do this stuff. I cannot buy the right lithium batteries
right now, and even if I did buy the right batteries, how would I know they were the right batteries. Many batteries look very similar. If it says on the label they are LiFePO4 but they're not? Or in the case of the ones I was looking at, there's no label to suggest they are actually LiFePO4

Thanks for trying
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jan 2019, 17:55

You are confusing 3 different chemistries.

Lithium polymer, as you have now are good for really high currents so a small battery can start car or drive a chair, as both need up to 200A to do... Those are nominal 3.7V. They are USED from 3.6 to 4.2V and are damaged if higher or lower or can explode. These need 7 cells in series, not 6, so wont power your chair. 100 to 200 cycles. Or about 1 year in storage.

Lithium ion, as used in laptops, would be able to be charged in your car jump starters, but they still burn or explode. And while they have the same ish 3.6/3.7V nominal voltage they have a lower empty voltage so are used from 2.5V up to 4.2V and again you need 7S not 6. And they cant do high currents like your LiPo. So you would need about 70Ah to make any sense. 200 to 400 cycles, and about 2 years in storage.

Lithium ion phosphate, or LiFePO4 are safe, dont burn or explode, and also cant do big currents. So you really need about 90 to 200Ah ideally, or say 30Ah minimum to HELP your healthy quality lead batteries. And 8 in series. Not 6. They are 3.2 or 3.25 nominal volts. And are 3.600V charge. So your devices cant charge them. They also cant do big currents, and have 2000 cycles, and a 10 year calendar life.

Theres no cheap or easy safe way to do it.
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Mechniki » 15 Jan 2019, 18:45

Burgerman wrote:You are confusing 3 different chemistries.

Lithium polymer, as you have now are good for really high currents so a small battery can start car or drive a chair, as both need up to 200A to do... Those are nominal 3.7V. They are USED from 3.6 to 4.2V and are damaged if higher or lower or can explode. These need 7 cells in series, not 6, so wont power your chair. 100 to 200 cycles. Or about 1 year in storage.

Lithium ion, as used in laptops, would be able to be charged in your car jump starters, but they still burn or explode. And while they have the same ish 3.6/3.7V nominal voltage they have a lower empty voltage so are used from 2.5V up to 4.2V and again you need 7S not 6. And they cant do high currents like your LiPo. So you would need about 70Ah to make any sense. 200 to 400 cycles, and about 2 years in storage.

Lithium ion phosphate, or LiFePO4 are safe, dont burn or explode, and also cant do big currents. So you really need about 90 to 200Ah ideally, or say 30Ah minimum to HELP your healthy quality lead batteries. And 8 in series. Not 6. They are 3.2 or 3.25 nominal volts. And are 3.600V charge. So your devices cant charge them. They also cant do big currents, and have 2000 cycles, and a 10 year calendar life.

Theres no cheap or easy safe way to do it.

I think I am beginning to understand, i read a different post about a modified golf buggy, that made sense.
So if I need 50Ah batteries in my wheelchair, I should use at least 100Ah if I upgrade to lithium, but I would need a different charger - and I need to balance the nominal voltage in each of the cells for it to work properly.

Thanks BM and everyone else that got me here
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Scooterman » 08 Feb 2019, 16:32

What's this app you're using called expresso?

Also does anyone know of any other decent speed, distance, avg speed, map route, etc Apps?

Must be available on iOS, me being an apple fanboy, not really :fencing
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 08 Feb 2019, 17:15

Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
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Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Dan » 20 Apr 2019, 10:35

Another good side effect of the little add on pack is that it really perks the chair up or at least it does mine a brushless storm 4, top sped is up a little and its averaging almost 1MPH faster.

12 miles cruising around a seaside town. 12Ah returned to the lead Voltage on the 30Ah pack was down to 3.21V but 20Ah returned seems a little high?
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Burgerman » 20 Apr 2019, 10:51

12Ah returned to the lead Voltage on the 30Ah pack was down to 3.21V but 20Ah returned seems a little high?


I am sure this made sense when you typed it! Can you explain?
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Dan » 20 Apr 2019, 11:06

I'm using a 30Ah add on pack connected to my chairs lead battery. Hanging off the back of the chair.
After doing about 13 miles in the chair I charged the pack and the chairs batteries separately.

The lead batteries are fully charged after taking about 11A returned.
The add on pack is still charging with 21A put back into it.

The chair is taking a lot more out of the add on pack than its lead batteries.
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 20 Apr 2019, 15:40

You dont have to charge them separate - you can leave it all connected and charge from the ADD ON pack Charge Cable if you made one with the Subd ?

use a combined preset - i use - i have one chair with the same setup - only a 60Ah ADD ON - also you may not be fully charging those leads

are you using a dumb charger for the lead ? most likey wont be fully charging them correctly - you can make these easier if you leave them always connected and charge all together once with the pl8 -

you can also try adding a diode that is talked about - i have and it gained me a bit more mileage - you add it on the ADD On pack to slow down its discharge. they should discharge more evenly after -

if you feel its not enough for you - later on - add another 8 Cells - giving you 45ah ADD ON - i have done that also to use up the free space.
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Dan » 20 Apr 2019, 16:28

What is the Subd?

I have two PL8's so wanted to charge them separately just to see. I thought that taking about 25A from the add on pack and only 11 from the chair might be a problem? What type of diode might help?
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 20 Apr 2019, 17:42

this is a Subd - every pack i build - i build a charge cable for it - which is a Subd - to use one cable - you dont have to use a subd or one cable - you can use what ever you like - make two parts - etc, - how do you charge your ADD ON now ? have a pic ?

this cable is for the PL 8 side - you make it same way for the ADD ON side - using the correct connections you use - i used XT90 on my ADD ON etc, you can use what ever works best for you - Male Subd for the pl8 - Female for the pack side -
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IMG_20170120_160933_resized_20170120_050015455.jpg
IMG_20170120_155631_resized_20170120_050029089.jpg
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 20 Apr 2019, 17:43

this is a 30ah ADD ON - which i now added 8 more cells - its now 45ah - same thing setup
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IMG_20170512_162430.jpg
IMG_20170515_152739.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
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Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 20 Apr 2019, 17:46

this is the Diode i have since added to the ADD ON thats connected to lead - you dont need it with all lithium - only if you are using the ADD ON with Lead in the Chair - i made an extra cable to connect inline between add on pack and cable going to the chair -
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Dan » 21 Apr 2019, 00:13

I lacked the dexterity to solder a Subd plug so kept it simple. Just a lead from the lead batteries terminating in a SB50. I have the same on the add on pack, just an SB50 on a cable from the plus and negative and a balance cable that plugs straight into the PL8.
When I charge the pack I just disconnect it from the chairs batteries then plug its SB50 into a cable with banana plugs at the other end for the PL8. Then plug the balance cables into the charger.
When its done charging I just plug it back into the chair and tuck the leads into the bag.
It works great apart from the chair draining the add on pack and not using much lead. If a diode would help what type should I try?
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Burgerman » 21 Apr 2019, 00:28

The two batteries work differently. You will use more lithium than lead. Because while both charge at the same overall voltage, the lead soon drops below that after you stop charging. And the lithium voltage will stay much the same for the first 50% of its charge. So you will not lose a green light for around 50 to 70% of the lithium battery range. From this point on, your lead and lithium will work together. With the lithium ending the trip at around 24.0V which coincides with about 2/3rds your battery gauge used up. And with a little lead remaining. Since the lead doesent like being discharged deeply and soon dies if you do that its OK this way. The lead battery will last years!

But to get ultimate range, and better match the two batteries, you can use the Low voltage drop diode I spent a while figuring out for expresso. But I dont remember which one it was. But expresso can help there as he will have made a note (I hope). It will still never mean that you will use the same amount of each in Ah though. Because the two discharge curves do not match. And are different to each other depending on load as well.
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 21 Apr 2019, 00:55

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vishay-VS-100B ... 5d7ed75ff8

this is the one i used - - but like BM said - if you want the lead to last many years longer - dont use a diode
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Dan » 21 Apr 2019, 01:05

I don't want my lead batteries to last for years czy
The reason I built the little pack was mostly to gain some knowledge about lithium and then eventually do a full lithium conversion on the chair when its lead died.
Like a lot of people here I have come to this cold with zero electrical knowledge and could not of done it without the help of people on here. Its been fun.

Maybe I will try a longer run tomorrow and see how it goes but the lithium pack running down so low was a bit of a worry. About 22 amps put back into the pack.
Thanks expresso, I should order one just to have it handy.
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Burgerman » 21 Apr 2019, 01:06

Well, add that 1 diode, and you will use more lead, less lithium.

How does that work?
That diode has a forward voltage drop of around .23V so that even unloaded, the lithium is now .23V lower in output voltage. So now the lead begins to be used earlier. It has an even higher votage drop under a heavy load, Maybe .4 or .5V so that it matches the lead, because lead does this too, on its own...
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Dan » 21 Apr 2019, 01:15

I see. I will only add it if the voltage on the pack gets to low without using much lead.

BTW I guess now that I have a lead coming from the 24V from the chairs batteries I could plug that directly into the PL8 and charge the chairs lead much faster? I have just be using the joystick port up until now.
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 13 May 2019, 02:31

Dan - you can charge your chair from the PL8 all at once - the chair i have the ADD ON with lead - i charge it from the charge Cable i made with the Subd - on the ADD ON - i leave the ADD ON connected to the lead all the time and just plug in the PL8 to the Sub d i use on the ADD ON and charge the whole thing at once - 15A or 25A charge is fine -

hope you like the ADD ON and its giving you some extra freedom :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby Dan » 15 May 2019, 18:01

I do have the PL8 setting for charging both together but I prefer to charge them separately for now. The little pack is holding up quite well and by the look of it is giving me at least an extra ten miles. I know it does not mean much but I did about 15 miles the other day and still had not lost a light on the joystick.
I bought the diode but have not fitted it yet. The way things are now after about 13 miles traveled the lead starts to kick in and about that point the lithium pack has lost about 25Ah.

I am 100% going to do a complete lithium conversion if @shirley_hkg can get me 16 of the cells hes testing :dance
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Re: PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pict

Postby expresso » 15 May 2019, 19:49

thats great and 10 extra miles is very good when you consider the most you may get with a brand new Lead is about 15 miles when Brand new and will get worse each time you do another 15 miles - so that little pack is doing good for you - you can keep a volt meter and check it when out or just once you see the first green light go out - head on home -

this is with lead and 60ah ADD ON - and i have one bad weaker cell in this one - never took it apart to replace - i have a spare but since it works fine this way and more than enough range for this Chair - i dont use this chair anymore for long range - its more of a short range - doc. visits since its compact - easy to move around and indoor chair -

i am sure Shirley will get you the Cells and that would be amazing to have all that range - you wont have to worry about the green light anymore - i did the same thing - i started with small ADD ON just to learn it a bit - and once i used it a few weeks after - i jumped right into a full chair pack - i knew i wasnt goin back to lead at that point.
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IMG-20180807-WA0000.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
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