vsi fault?

[duke1]

hi all hoping for help and maybe a miracle but here goes!
i have a problem with my good lady tinas wheelchair i fitted a pg drives vsi controller several years ago now with the help of the good folk here and apart from a few tweeks to the programming since it has worked very well and reliably but a few days ago it showed the battery lights etc all flashing with a red one on the end,so i plugged it in to the pc program and ran the diagnostic which said left motor wiring fault so having examined the connectors (andersons) which are perfect still all wires secure and no rust or dirt so checked the cable right up to where it enter the motor body and again all is in good sound condition so i switched it of shut the power of at the main switch and restarted ran diagnostic again and this time it says left motor brake wiring fault! so i checked the connections and again all are good so switched of again restarted ran diagnostics with no faults found and chair worked fine for 2 days and now showing the same warning lights and left motor fault on the diagnostics but i am certain as a man can be that the wiring is all intact,so any ideas very happily taken,is it possible to wipe the memory of the vsi and rerun the saved program or am i dreaming?
sorry for the wall of text!
if anyone has a vsi going spare/cheap i would be interested,thanks in advance for any helpful input,duke

[woodygb]

Have you checked the motor brushes?

[duke1]

Have you checked the motor brushes?

hi woody yes i have checked both motors now and all 4 brushes in each are in good condition but in the process of removing the motors i found a very spurious connection made on the lh motor brake wire they look to have been cut and extended badly using those horrid solderless mini crimp on terminals and in order to fit the cover they had bent the mini connectors at an acute angle and stressed the terminal and cable so i changed it out for a new wire (damn fiddly with only 1 good hand) and i also checked every terminal/connector for rust etc and all is very good so have reassembled and bless it so far it switched on and whizzed round our kitchen
but the afternoon dogwalk should test it out better,nothing like a good bounce round a muddy playfield to show up a loose cable!
i just hope and pray it stays working now as tina so hates the spare chair as they lie about top speed its so bloody slow even at top speed i can keep up easily on foot something ive no chance of with the old faithful chair,i do love older german engineering but imo this modern stuff is naff all style and no substance and dont get me started on the entire crapness of the so called swing away joystick mickey mouse eat your heart out!
i shall report later,thanks

[Burgerman]

The dreaded crimp joint strikes again...

SOLDER...

[duke1]

The dreaded crimp joint strikes again...

SOLDER...

hi bm well despite all my efforts the damn thing is now possessed i am starting to think i need an excorcist!i do not understand this at all as one minute it switches on as normal will drive etc then switch it of and on again the full array of lamps all flash and checking the diagnostics gives seemingly random faults first left brake solenoid wiring,then left motor then switch of and on and sometimes it works sometimes flashes again! idk what to try next?i have scrutinised every mm of wire with a fine toothcomb all my andersons are as good as the day they was fitted as are the single 4 way block terminal for the brakes the connections inside the plastic housing of the motor are all clean and secure motor brushes and wires and joints all secure and tight i have check the run of the cable from the vsi the full run to the motors,so im either stuck with a sad tina or a very poor xmas if i have to replace the vsi again,idk how long they meant to last and being as it was a used ebay item (log showed 185 hrs) but was carefully fitted and has been perfect for nearly 3 years,any thing im missing?thanks for input it sorely needed!!!!

[woodygb]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/electric-whe ... Sw8DJZ7Ris

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Whe ... SwzilZ1hfT

[duke1]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/electric-wheelchair-joystick-Control-D50422-01/332421966234?hash=item4d65e4a99a:g:XawAAOSw8DJZ7Ris

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Whe ... SwzilZ1hfT

funny enough that first one is already on my watch list!,but stranger and stranger after my lappy battery died i gave up and closed the program just after reinstalling the copy of the settings i saved earlier and went of to bed thinking it was knackered,well it switched on perfect today and been out on a real long run switched on and of many times (all the while praying i not have to push it home!) but it so far has been perfect as normal but im not sure you can trust it now and just wish i could be certain the controller is at fault,but atm its working and saved my ears from the missus as she hates the spare chair and is rather vocal about it the whole time she on it!
the diagnostic now says no faults found so im baffled and just keeping fingers crossed it stays working though i am glad she has the spare chair as she would be unbareable stuck indoors 24-7! im in need of a rest as the taking apart of the motors has caned my hand and i need a
thanks for helping peace

[woodygb]

Buying a 2nd VSi would seem sensible..... I have in the past picked one up on Ebay for under £20.

[rustyjames]

I just repaired a chair with a VSI control system. Found one on ebay for $160.00 shipped. That price is on the high side, but it had the seat elevator option. Actually, it turned out to be an excellent deal since it only has 4 hours on it, and fixed the problem . I have made a lot of purchases on ebay for spares because I couldn't resist the price.

[duke1]

Buying a 2nd VSi would seem sensible..... I have in the past picked one up on Ebay for under £20.

i messaged the seller of the first one on your list but they cant tell me if it is a 70amp and im sure i seen a list somewhere that tells specs from the part number,was it here and if so could someone kindly point me to it?not being lazy honest i have looked!thanks again

[ex-Gooserider]

I'd agree with the value of having spare controllers, (as well as Joysticks, motors, etc.) that can be swapped out.... However even if the wiring LOOKS good, regard it with a great deal of suspicion... Even the soldered connections can fail, they just do so differently and can be harder to detect when they do.... Soldered joints particularly, but ANY wire can fail internally under the insulation such that the wire looks perfect, but is intermittent...

Look for any signs of kinks, bulges, thin spots, or any other sort of imperfection in the wires, including very sharp bends. Pay special attention to the areas right next to connectors, and any areas that get flexed a lot (i.e. where the harness goes between moving bits...)

Give connections a good tug to make sure they are still solidly attached to the wires.

Ideally put a swing meter or continuity light across both ends of each wire and watch for any signs of flickering or changes in resistance while shaking the crap out of the wire...

Intermittents are about the worst sort of fault to try and find, basically if boils down to detective work, and patient going through every little bit... (Might be easier to replace the wiring...)

ex-Gooserider

[duke1]

I'd agree with the value of having spare controllers, (as well as Joysticks, motors, etc.) that can be swapped out.... However even if the wiring LOOKS good, regard it with a great deal of suspicion... Even the soldered connections can fail, they just do so differently and can be harder to detect when they do.... Soldered joints particularly, but ANY wire can fail internally under the insulation such that the wire looks perfect, but is intermittent...

Look for any signs of kinks, bulges, thin spots, or any other sort of imperfection in the wires, including very sharp bends. Pay special attention to the areas right next to connectors, and any areas that get flexed a lot (i.e. where the harness goes between moving bits...)

Give connections a good tug to make sure they are still solidly attached to the wires.

Ideally put a swing meter or continuity light across both ends of each wire and watch for any signs of flickering or changes in resistance while shaking the crap out of the wire...

Intermittents are about the worst sort of fault to try and find, basically if boils down to detective work, and patient going through every little bit... (Might be easier to replace the wiring...)

ex-Gooserider

hi all well it seems i have a faulty brake on the lh side with the brakes turned of and the disconect alarm turned of the chair works perfect but as soon as i switch the brakes on the alarm goes mental so my question is can anyone tell me if the brake is sold seperate anywhere as ebay only has the entire motor and brakes and none are same as mine!i know the motors are later than the chair and are 4 pole but none of the labels are recognised by a google search and i cannot afford to buy a pair of motors and she insists she does not need the brakes as its all flat and she a good driver but i am a mechanic by trade and bodging stuff goes against the grain!
so if anyone has any ideas i can post pics of the motors,infact i think i have on my previous thread here any help truly welcomed!

[woodygb]

http://www.nithsdale-wheelchairs.com/el ... rakes.html

[duke1]

http://www.nithsdale-wheelchairs.com/electromagnetic-brakes.html

thanks woody i did have a look but impossible to work out the right one,i take it there are no user serviceable bits i can mend?could it be the microswitch?i only say that as it if im correct it operates and stops you engaging motors in neutral yes? so is an essential part of the circuit,or am i miles out? i dont mind stripping it down again if there a chance i can fix it but dont want to be wasting time on it if its a pointless excercise,thanks again all for input peace

[LROBBINS]

Yes, as normally used the microswitch inhibits joystick-to-motor commands if the brake is moved to freewheel. An intermittent or misadjusted microswitch can cause intermittent engagement of the brake (it engages when it's not powered). These are parking brakes - they are not used to slow or stop the chair. You can drive with them in freewheel as long as you shunt the microswitch, and you can even drive with the brakes removed from the motors. However, if you stop on a slope, the chair will drift down hill. Without the brake clickety-clack the chair gets a lot quieter, and some people prefer to get rid of them and drive in stealth mode.

Some brakes are also adjustable, and I did once have one go out of whack. The brakes on Rachi's current motors have no adjustment at all. If adjustable, there are screws to set the distance between the steel disc and the solenoid that pulls it in. The correct distance is pretty small and fairly critical - too close and it may not release from the solenoid, so it's like disconnecting the brake. To far away and it may not pull in, so your motor will be working against the brake - very bad for both. If not parallel, it will bind and be erratic. Use feeler gauges if adjusting them.

Replacement parts are sometimes available for some brakes, but you'd first have to exactly identify the brake by mfr and model and then do a lot of searching. If you can find someone who stocks the brake itself, new or used, it will probably cost you less than getting the parts, if indeed they can be found at all.

Did you notice that the dealer Woody linked to asks that you send them the chair/motor model information so that they can help you find the right brake?

[duke1]

well im confused (NOT UNUSUAL)i found today that her chair has been driving in "push mode" for the last few days since i rewired the lh side brake wiring i thought this was not possible but having put it back into drive i now have brakes working perfect again and no warning lamps/annoying buzzers and the diagnostic shows no faults found again! so though im puzzled by this im glad it must have been the wiring i have replaced at fault and now dozey bollocks here put it back in drive its working and that means a happy tina!
we did get a call from the hospital today and she has surgery either 24th or 27th of this month,damn scary as its her upper spine this time and 4 vertabrae have moved and caused a big kink in her spinal cord so all being well she may not need the chair for a while but whatever she says we are never going to part with it as imo it is a one in a million as hunt though i might i cannot find another the same or even similar quality,old german engineering is pukka stuff imo,just a shame about the later chairs as the meyra is crap!good night and thanks for the replies,idiot signing of,peace

[Burgerman]

You can drive with them in freewheel as long as you shunt the microswitch, and you can even drive with the brakes removed from the motors. However, if you stop on a slope, the chair will drift down hill. Without the brake clickety-clack the chair gets a lot quieter, and some people prefer to get rid of them and drive in stealth mode.

I am one of those. You can on some systems alter the delay before coming on too. Depending og programming tool and type on controller. Set to say 1 second or longer, it becomes far less annoying. But you will roll on a ramp for eg and will need to hold it on the stick.

[duke1]

hi all im back again!i bet your glad?well as normal im after picking some brains if possible i have a problem again with my tinas wheelchair this time as you are driving along it suddenly like someone hits the of button and the chair stops real fast,so fast that myself being of smaller stature i get launched out the seat!i ran the mobility programmer and diagnostics showed no current faults ,this time theres no just switching back on either it seems to have a delay some 5-10 minutes and it switches on again then try drive it does same but the vsi lights are all flashing,i have been through the wiring again and checked end to end and had a good tug on the connectors etc with all appearing to be well fixed still typical just spent this months pay on getting the bloody car through mot and cant afford another vsi atm or any time soon.
i am at a loss this time so if anyone has any helpful ideas i be grateful,ps its an 1985 invacare chair 4pole motors and 50 amp vsi .
next question is do the vsi have intermitent faults and also if this is knackered could i fit the vr2 system from the crappy spare 4.5 mph meyra if i reprogram it would it work on a 6mph chair?though not ideal i do allready have that sat in my kitchen doing nothing except being spare!!thanks for any advices im of for a big fat one! im allowed its missus birthday today!peace

[woodygb]

https://support.pgdt.com/Online-Diagnos ... Flash-Code

[duke1]

https://support.pgdt.com/Online-Diagnostics/Flash-Code-List/VSI-Flash-Code

woody i shall have another look in the morning,do you think the vr2 idea viable?maybe its a better idea as i think the vr2 is 70 amp which is more like the original capacity ?idk its one thing after another and i feel like i just flit from one to the other perpetually!tinas dead grumpy as it happened on her birthday thanks for help,peace

[woodygb]

There should be no problem.... other than the motor connections.... in swapping over the control systems.

[duke1]

There should be no problem.... other than the motor connections.... in swapping over the control systems.

hi woody and all well i decided to go back to the fundamentals and investigate properly the entire wiring system from the batteries and back to the controller connections i found an anomaly the main 2 battery feed wires go into what was the original loom a kind of anderson connector and through the side of the battery box via a grommet the wires go through a tight bend idk why they made it such a tight bend as theres plenty of room there for a gradual sensible bend anyhow i attached the volt meter and when you wiggle the bent bit the voltage goes up and down,so further strip down and close exam shows a crimped area on the live side so i have ordered a new proper anderson connector and plan to replace the old worn cable and connector then pray a lot!
i so far resisted stealing parts from the spare meyra chair as i decided i would feel awful if after neither chair was useable!
typical though i could easy have spent lots of money on another vsi only to find the same happens so sometimes going back to the start aint such a bad thing
in a couple of days i shall find out if it fixes it,thanks for the place to ask my questions and i am grateful for the help more than i can say,peace

[Burgerman]

Crimps are an endless source of problems. Been keeping auto electricians and boat and wheelchair tech guys in work for decades.

Solder them...

[duke1]

Crimps are an endless source of problems. Been keeping auto electricians and boat and wheelchair tech guys in work for decades.

Solder them...

hi bm woody and all well i think lady luck maybe on my side for once after renewing the crimped cables with nice new good quality wire and a new anderson connector for the main battery supply cable it switched straight on and a quick testdrive went ok so optimistic its fixed,sometimes the simplest of things are hardest to find!peace thanks again for this forum and helping