Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

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Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 23 Nov 2017, 22:04

Forgive the long and unspecific description and questions that follow. All of the detail is pertinent which is why its included (i.e., before you say "they should..." consider the resources that they've available!)

I work with a few groups (USA) that, loosely speaking, "recycle" items. Their mission statements (charities) range from "simple recycling" (i.e., diverting materials from land fills/dumps/incinerators) to more exhaustive reuse-repurpose-recycle operations (i.e., find a new user for the item else find a new use for it before resorting to recycling it as scrap material). Most have "charitable" goals (though some have profit motives).

All tend to be sorely understaffed, relying heavily on volunteer labor to meet their mission goals. Volunteer labor tends to be sporadic and unreliable -- you can't effectively "advertise" for volunteers with specific skill sets (when you're opting not to pay them!)

The materials involved run the gamut from household/industrial electronics to medical equipment/supplies. The sizes of the donations varies from "truckloads" from corporate donors to onesie-twosies from private individuals. E.g., a donation may be hospital beds and gurnees and examination tables... or personal computers, monitors and printers... or large flat-screen TV's... or new/used clothing (unsorted/sorted by size)...

And, of course, timing of donations is virtually unpredictable. As is the availability of "staff" to process those items.

Storage space is at a premium -- if you can't process it NOW, it inevitably ends up in the tip (i.e., scrap)!

"Disposition" to client groups (e.g., other charities) may involve shipping to another country (costly). "Local" uses may be limited (partly due to inadequate "outreach" efforts -- letting people know what's available to them in the community)

Bottom line, these groups have to cherry pick what they can do on any given day and often lose/miss opportunities simply because they are operating beyond their instantaneous capacity

"Simple" mobility aids (walkers, manual wheelchairs, etc.) are relatively easy to handle; their quality can be assessed and they can often be collapsed to minimize the space they consume. If "too many" start to accumulate, you can indiscriminately load up a few dozen and send them off to another group (e.g., a charity in Central America).

OTOH, powerchairs, powered wheelchairs, scooters, etc. are often simply "recycled" (scrap value) owing to a lack of on-site skill to assess their fitness for reuse or make simple repairs. Batteries are inevitably dead ("This belonged to my Dad; he died 3 months ago and we're trying to clean out the house..."). Parts missing. State of wear can be dubious. There may be hidden faults in the mechanics/electronics/etc.

In the ideal case, these groups would like to be able to find END USERS who could benefit from having these items (i.e., "reuse") gratis or at greatly reduced cost (to help cover operating expenses at the charity in question).

The problems (that I see) with this are:
  • - labor/skills to assess the state of the item
  • - labor/skills/components to affect any necessary repairs
  • - locating/identifying appropriate recipient/client
  • - programming the chair to their needs/capabilities
  • - education in use/maintenance
  • - ongoing support (repairs)
  • - liability

E.g., a chair with bad batteries, missing key, etc. poses some problems in assessing its general state, driveability, etc.

[I use an 80A 24VDC power supply w/ an assortment of, e.g., Anderson connectors as a large "battery eliminator" to do some simple screening of chairs worth salvaging soas to eliminate the need to keep a variety of battery case sizes on hand *just* for testing]

For a chair to see "reuse", the organization would have to purchase and install the requisite batteries -- passing those costs directly along to the end user. The organization is then "invested" in finding a buyer (as those battery purchases can strain their financial resources and compete with other services that the organization may be more effective in offering to their targeted client base).

Unlike a "store"/supplier, they can't afford the luxury of holding onto several chairs that may never find users. Or, the hefty markups to accommodate these "investments". Additionally, the makes/models that are "available" are unpredictable (one group has a permobil m300, boss 6 and pronto m51 presently "in limbo")

Offering the chairs on Craig's List, eBay, etc. means they have to be warehoused for some time until a buyer is found. Then, potentially crated and shipped. And, the other issues that arise in any such "long distance" sale (remember, labor is in short supply).

[One possibility might be to resell to "mobility providers" locally and let them sort out these issues. Can/do they resell "used" kit? Creating a "relationship" with such an entity could then simplify handling all donations of this type!]

Moving a bit from the "reuse" towards the "repurpose" approach, the chairs could be "parted out" and offered for sale much easier -- no need to fabricate large crates, no programming issues, etc. For some groups, this would be an acceptable compromise ("Better to find some use than to see it scrapped!")

The "recycle" approach, by far, involves the least effort -- heft the chair on the forklift and drop it into the dumpster (3 minutes of effort).

So... with that as a "backgrounder", can you shed any advice on how these groups might want to proceed? It's disheartening to see all this kit headed towards the tip. OTOH, the chairs/scooters that I (personally) have been able to rescue have consumed a fair bit of my time -- time that could have been spent providing other services to these groups (instead of effectively servicing one "client"/recipient).

I guess I don't know how these items are "normally" acquired. E.g., if "insurance" is buying them for people, then they have little incentive to find a second-hand unit through one of these charities. OTOH, if they are buying them out of personal funds, then a "used" chair could have considerable value (ignoring the training/programming/support issue).

In an ideal world, there'd be enough labor, money, storage space and time to restore all of these items to useful purpose. (In a TRULY ideal world, there'd be no need for any of them!)
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Burgerman » 23 Nov 2017, 23:13

Same happens with all goods. Not sure there is a viable solution, other than stripping for spares and ebay.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 25 Nov 2017, 20:21

Burgerman wrote:Same happens with all goods. Not sure there is a viable solution, other than stripping for spares and ebay.


Yes, but with most goods, it's relatively easy to find ways to reuse them without even resorting to repurposing. Even "exotic" things (Xray machines, dental chairs, examination tables, etc.) have ready/eager clients awaiting them. One would have thought that something as expensive -- and commonplace! -- as a powerchair would be much easier to get back into use, intact.

I'll try listing one of the nicer chairs (maybe the m300) on Craig's List ("local pickup" saves the hassle/cost of crating and shipping). Then, if no local takers, I'll try eBay listing. Finally, parting the chair out and seeing if it can find a home "in pieces".

This will give me an idea as to how much effort folks should be willing to expend for each of these potential disposal methods. I.e., don't waste time listing, disassembling, etc. if you can more easily/effectively just drop it in the tip for $X/pound, "as is".
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Burgerman » 26 Nov 2017, 02:52

Then theres this.

In the US and in UK at least most people do not ever buy a powerchair. They get new ones for free from either insurance or UK wheelchair services.

And then theres this 2.

If you showed me the first 100 chairs you found on ebay I wouldnt want them even if free as they would be front or mid drive, too slow, wrong control system, 2 pole weedy motors, wrong seating width, depth, or seating optiones, too small batteries, no suspension, small casters, no seat lift or it has one but I dont want that as it makes the seat too high to transfer etc etc. Or have swing away footrests, or any number of other things that didnt suit. These things are all very different and ordered to suit a persons wants, and clinical requirements. An things like, does it have enough ground clearance to fit my vans tie down, or is it crash tested to drive from?

So just grabbing one to ride about isnt usually an option for most of us. Theres a bit more too it.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby ex-Gooserider » 28 Nov 2017, 01:06

I would tend to go with the 'minimal test' approach on nicer chairs - and NOT try to be a battery supplier, just have a set (or a power supply possibly) that lets you do a short distance of driving it around, test seating functions, etc...

The odds are extremely good that a chair that passes the minimum test will not have any serious problems as usually stuff either works or it doesn't...

That done, clean up the nicer units and put them on e-bay, craig's etc... In the US, also check with your state Disability Commissions, many have equipment re-use programs of various sorts and can at least be another place to list stuff...

The ugly / non-fully working units, part out... Post e-bay etc...

As BM said, the vast majority of folks get new chairs funded by insurance / gov't, so the market for used stuff is limited, but there is some... Ironically, I suspect it will actually be bigger for the 'mobility aid' level chairs targeted at the folks that don't need a full on rehab chair, and having the features that BM so dislikes - as the kids may think Grandma needs some help getting around, but don't want to deal with the hassles of getting it paid for... The other use case is more for folks looking for a backup chair, but as said, the people needing a rehab chair have to be fussier in order to get something that works for them....

In some places there are also businesses that do chair parting out / recycling for profit (many of them list parts on E-bay) I suspect that a charity could make some sort of deal to pass the pre-owned chairs on to them in return for a donation or other support...

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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 29 Nov 2017, 02:03

ex-Gooserider wrote:I would tend to go with the 'minimal test' approach on nicer chairs - and NOT try to be a battery supplier, just have a set (or a power supply possibly) that lets you do a short distance of driving it around, test seating functions, etc...

The odds are extremely good that a chair that passes the minimum test will not have any serious problems as usually stuff either works or it doesn't...


For the (local) group with which I'm affiliated, I pull the (invariably dead) batteries from the battery box and drop in a pair of 12V 70A power supplies as "battery eliminators". A 50-100ft extension cord then lets me drive the chair around and get a feel for any "obvious" problems -- as well as how its programmed (how suitable it would be to various types of potential owners).

If there are other actuators (tilt, lift, etc.), I give them a crude test -- but, don't bother (or know!) verifying their proper range of motion. I don't bother verifying that it can carry its rated load, etc.

That done, clean up the nicer units and put them on e-bay, craig's etc... In the US, also check with your state Disability Commissions, many have equipment re-use programs of various sorts and can at least be another place to list stuff...

The ugly / non-fully working units, part out... Post e-bay etc...


Available (suitably skilled) labor usually limits how much can be done. E.g., Depending on the orgainzation's needs, I may spend a day playing forklift operator instead of servicing powerchairs -- or rebuilding computers, etc. It's hard to decide which are the "nicer units" -- when your only experience with them is as an observer.

As BM said, the vast majority of folks get new chairs funded by insurance / gov't, so the market for used stuff is limited, but there is some... Ironically, I suspect it will actually be bigger for the 'mobility aid' level chairs targeted at the folks that don't need a full on rehab chair, and having the features that BM so dislikes - as the kids may think Grandma needs some help getting around, but don't want to deal with the hassles of getting it paid for... The other use case is more for folks looking for a backup chair, but as said, the people needing a rehab chair have to be fussier in order to get something that works for them....


This seems to correlate with my personal observations. The folks who "genuinely need" the chairs (due to a particular disability) already have a means of acquiring and maintaining their chairs. The folks who've expressed an interest in the surplus chairs tend to be "average joes" who've just decided that a motorized chair would make getting around easier (instead of being a genuine mobility enabler)

In some places there are also businesses that do chair parting out / recycling for profit (many of them list parts on E-bay) I suspect that a charity could make some sort of deal to pass the pre-owned chairs on to them in return for a donation or other support...


We'd have to invest some effort in locating such a group. Lower-tech solutions, ironically, are more readily disposable as there is a lower threshold for the receiving group to process them (no batteries, electronics, etc.). Also, there seems to be a lot of variation in the (specific) designs of the powerchairs we've seen vs. the manual chairs.

I'll also see if I can find homes at one of the local robotics clubs
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Sully » 30 Nov 2017, 17:51

NOT every needy powerchair user can rely on some agency funding a "NEW" chair for their use. It takes months for many to get a "NEW" chair from Govt or Insurance Companies. One day of immobility, is a century of need. Every wheeler should have a spare chair and NO Govt or Insurance company will supply or support a spare chair. So if your chair fails you you are totally screwed.

When visiting my son in Bellingham, Washington U.S., years ago, I found an agency that supplied well used Wheelchairs manual or powered. This was a public service charity organization. BUT such organizations are few and far between. Perhaps your organization might be interested in starting such a charity based system. Of course batteries are always an issue with powered wheelchairs and likely always will be.

It seems to me a useful piece of equipment of any sort is wasted when torn down for parts. Setting the junkers aside and advertising them as such, may clear you of large numbers of chairs (not individual chairs) at one time to tinkerers as I used to be.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 01 Dec 2017, 06:51

Sully wrote:When visiting my son in Bellingham, Washington U.S., years ago, I found an agency that supplied well used Wheelchairs manual or powered. This was a public service charity organization. BUT such organizations are few and far between. Perhaps your organization might be interested in starting such a charity based system. Of course batteries are always an issue with powered wheelchairs and likely always will be.


Most of these groups already do that sort of thing. E.g., the group I work with makes "durable medical equipment" available to folks... who are willing to come pick it up! (sorry, we don't have the resources to bring it to you) This includes hospital beds, bedside commodes, crutches/walkers/wheelchairs, CPAP's, glucometers, etc.

But, you can stack 10 hospital beds in the floor space required for 2 -- maybe 3 -- powerchairs. And, those beds will be reasonably "universally" usable (no need for an assortment of small chairs, large chairs, scooters, etc.) as might be required to address the needs of different potential clients/recipients. And, it's relatively easy to find folks (volunteers) who understand how a bed works -- vs. trying to understand how to assess the "life left" in a donated powerchair.

Then, when/if you can mate a chair to a potential user, there is the expectation that the user will be able, fiscally and technologically, to purchase/install the batteries and other supplies that may be needed to put it into use -- to say nothing of the ongoing "support" they may require ("No, we don't service the chairs, ma'am. As to who you should call, I don't really know...").

I refurbished a scooter for a woman a few months back and spent more than 20 hours on it -- and her -- to install the batteries that she purchased, troubleshoot the crappy charger that she purchased, fit a (missing) basket to the front and fabricate a dual cane holder for her. She was very grateful -- but that time was diverted from addressing other needs. And, that still relied on her "need" presenting at about the same time as that scooter's "availability"!

It seems to me a useful piece of equipment of any sort is wasted when torn down for parts. Setting the junkers aside and advertising them as such, may clear you of large numbers of chairs (not individual chairs) at one time to tinkerers as I used to be.


If there was a ready, willing and economically accessible, charitable group that wished to take on the task of accepting the items that we (locally) receive, as we receive them, storing them while they are refurbished and finding suitable homes for the completed chairs, we'd be more than happy to offload them on them. We already do this with groups for medical items, pet care items, etc. E.g., donate the furnishings of your "physician's practice" and we'll have them furnishing a clinic in some corner of the world by week's end! Donate a dozen PC's and it will take considerably longer to find them homes (PC's are ubiquitous). Donate a powerchair and it may take months -- or longer!

If "parting out" chairs was a more effective way of disposing of them (easier to ship a part of a chair than have to freight an entire chair!) then I could see pitching that idea. But, if the only option is to try to "distribute"/"dispose of" it intact, I fear most will end up in the tip -- out of expediency.

It's trivial to fantasize over what could be done. Considerably harder to actually get those things done!
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Sully » 04 Dec 2017, 21:22

Scout, you mention this whole resale and recycle thing, but you keep your location rather secret. Where are you and the organization you represent located???? This is a big country. location matters.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Burgerman » 04 Dec 2017, 21:32

This is a big country.


World!

I know most americans think the US is the world but theres a lot more chairs out there in the world than just the US. This is a problem everywhere. Other than poor countries where everything gets recycled if its humanly possible and powerchairs are like rocking horse excrement. Why dont the richer countries bother recycling them? Because to us its not viable. We have higher labour costs, more disposable income, and a free supply of new chairs... So shipping them in bulk to places like india, for THEM to work on with glee, and part out or re-use, is viable. They will happily spend a week fixing a motor and making a part because its worth the effort to them.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 04 Dec 2017, 22:16

Sully wrote:Scout, you mention this whole resale and recycle thing, but you keep your location rather secret. Where are you and the organization you represent located???? This is a big country. location matters.


I'm making no attempt to "keep my location secret". Rather, if you read my original post, I am asking on behalf of several organizations, located in different parts of the country, that all have this common "problem" -- what to do with donated/surplus powerchairs. Each of us, in our respective organizations, see these as "sinful" to discard -- yet the realities that I outlined in my original post apply to ALL of us. They're big, take up a lot of room to store, require "special" knowledge to "process" -- and are difficult to find willing recipients. (No, we can't deliver it to you. No, it doesn't have batteries. No, we can't tune the controller to your specific needs. No, we don't have sip-n-puff controllers. No, we can't service it for you. etc.)

I scrapped a Quickie 525 today and an Invacare (?) Pronto M51. "Scrapped" as in "tossed in the metal recycling container, intact" (technically, I should have pulled the cushions off of it but the metal recycler won't fret too much over that; the batteries went to another recycler for their lead content).

Burgerman wrote:Why dont the richer countries bother recycling them? Because to us its not viable. We have higher labour costs, more disposable income, and a free supply of new chairs... So shipping them in bulk to places like india, for THEM to work on with glee, and part out or re-use, is viable. They will happily spend a week fixing a motor and making a part because its worth the effort to them.


And, if the shipping agency (i.e., any of the groups I'm speaking about) has to pick up the cost of shipping, it detracts from other services that could more affordably be provided. Should we ship a dozen powerchairs to El Salvador? Or, an X-Ray machine, examination table, dental chair, autoclave and a bunch of medical supplies -- to address the needs of an entire village (instead of a couple of folks who will probably not be able to navigate their unpaved roadways on those powerchairs)?

There's a non-profit that builds custom manual wheelchairs in Mexico. We offered to supply them with the chairs that we receive: "No thanks, those tires won't work on the dirt paths in the villages and the chairs don't have high enough clearance to navigate over rocks, across stream beds, etc."
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Burgerman » 04 Dec 2017, 22:21

Then you are screwed.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby ex-Gooserider » 05 Dec 2017, 03:01

When I said "nicer units" above, I was talking more about the ones that are reasonably pretty and clean looking to start with - this indicates a chair that hasn't had a lot of use / abuse, exposure to bad weather, etc... It doesn't guarantee good operation but improves the odds... It also means minimal work to get it ready for passing on - give it a scrub, minimal test and put it on-line...

OTOH a chair like mine, which gets a LOT of use, and looks like it's been through a war (on the losing side) might be in decent shape mechanically, but would take a lot of work to make it look nice...

If a chair / scooter isn't going to be passed on in one piece, it shouldn't take a lot of time to strip it down to the high resale value parts - motors, electronics, actuators, possibly wheels and casters, then bin the rest (which I'd be sorry to see happen, as there would probably be more that I could salvage, but...) This would greatly reduce the space needed, and the biggest part of the job would be generating listings for eBay and putting the parts in boxes to ship.

If done systematically, this wouldn't be horrible to do - have camera (cheap digital) handy, as a part comes off, take pictures of part and labels on it, put in box - listing consists of " <PART-desc> from <brand> <model> [chair | scooter | ???] [tested, working | not tested], sold as is, no warranty ". As soon as listing is made, write number on box, put box on shelf... When item sells, print address label, stick on box, ship... (US Postal service will provide free boxes for flat-rate priority mail that will fit many things...)

Plus side is that it would generate a significant amount of income - much more than one would get from the scrap metal dealer.... Electronics modules seem to get (US $ prices) $50-150 each, motors about $200-300 set, actuators $50 each, etc... I'd expect that a low end 'mobility aid' chair would produce about $300 worth of parts, and a rehab chair closer to $500... Doing a strip on a chair like that shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours, so depending on the number of chairs, the income might even be enough to allow employing an entry level worker to do the job - possibly even one with a disability, so an even bigger win for all...

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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby popschief » 05 Dec 2017, 17:56

Ex Goose
If a chair / scooter isn't going to be passed on in one piece, it shouldn't take a lot of time to strip it down to the high resale value parts - motors, electronics, actuators, possibly wheels and casters, then bin the rest (which I'd be sorry to see happen, as there would probably be more that I could salvage, but...) This would greatly reduce the space needed, and the biggest part of the job would be generating listings for eBay and putting the parts in boxes to ship. oose wrote;


So true. I've purchased seats for all of my chairs but one and many other parts and pieces. Sure my chairs LOOK LIKE THEY WERE BUILT ON A FARM' :hammer but they get rode hard and put away wet almost every day. :biker and keep me rollin. :clap

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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 05 Dec 2017, 21:49

Burgerman wrote:Then you are screwed.


Well, we're not screwed as our (local group) mission statement really is only concerned with keeping things out of land fills. So, any form of reuse/recycling is a win, here! Whether it is the most efficient way to reuse those resources is always debatable: how efficient is it on the use of folks' time to "process" a more "material efficient" solution?

I'm told that a guy purchased the two units I scrapped, yesterday (for a pittance -- but, more than their value as recyclable metal), after I left.

AND, that suggests he will find some way to get them back into use (perhaps parting them out, perhaps refurbishing them, perhaps selling them intact, etc.) If he can make a buck doing this, then he'll be motivated to keep doing it -- one less thing for us to worry about! :D

From our standpoint (and, mine personally) it's a win as it frees up my time to work on things that require even more specialized skillsets (operating heavy machinery; developing hardware/software systems to track resources; refurbishing computers; etc.).

I'll advise my colleagues of this outcome and, hopefully, they can find such people in each of their locations that are willing to take on that chore (i.e., offer the chairs at "just above scrap" prices in the hope that it entices folks to take them off their hands)
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 05 Dec 2017, 22:08

ex-Gooserider wrote:It also means minimal work to get it ready for passing on - give it a scrub, minimal test and put it on-line...


If a chair / scooter isn't going to be passed on in one piece, it shouldn't take a lot of time to strip it down to the high resale value parts - motors, electronics, actuators, possibly wheels and casters, then bin the rest (which I'd be sorry to see happen, as there would probably be more that I could salvage, but...) This would greatly reduce the space needed, and the biggest part of the job would be generating listings for eBay and putting the parts in boxes to ship.


If done systematically, this wouldn't be horrible to do - have camera (cheap digital) handy, as a part comes off, take pictures of part and labels on it, put in box - listing consists of " <PART-desc> from <brand> <model> [chair | scooter | ???] [tested, working | not tested], sold as is, no warranty ". As soon as listing is made, write number on box, put box on shelf... When item sells, print address label, stick on box, ship... (US Postal service will provide free boxes for flat-rate priority mail that will fit many things...)


No one has claimed that any of this is "hard" (i.e., "not easy") to do. But, it all takes time -- which means a person capable, available and willing to undertake that task (for no pay!).

I donate 500 hours of my personal time, annually. I can spend that time refurbishing medical equipment for a clinic, refurbishing PC's for a classroom, dispensing medical supplies, designing systems to track these activities, writing grant proposals -- or, parting out powerchairs. If there was a line of folks waiting to pick up the tasks that I can't address in the time I've budgeted, then it wouldn't matter which of these tasks I took on (cuz someone else would take on the others!). But, as there isn't, I have to choose how best my time is used -- as does the organization.

I'd encourage you to look around your community to see if there isn't a similar organization that could avail itself of your time/expertise -- perhaps, refurbishing donated powerchairs! :) I'm willing to bet that someone, nearby, has this very same "problem" and has probably developed a similarly expedient (inefficient) solution.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Sully » 10 Dec 2017, 17:54

scout everything you said in your last post is probably right. BUT you fail to see the actual problem that you first brought up. The actual location where a person could deliver a used wheelchair and where thes could and would be made available to people who want or use such items. Everything you mentioned is a hypothetical,issue. So there is no answer to your problem as I see it.

Poorer less developed nations, or distant places from the USA are costly to send a power chair that may or may NOT be actually practical and used as suggested by BM.

I mentioned your location was a secret, well you mentioned the "local" place where you donated your time, where might that be? Is this a National secret?

If you locally advertise the need for such items locally (DME of all sorts) you may well eventually get the kinds of response you seek. I, myself do not wish to strip down powered chairs and ship parts to another person, for them to mark it up and sell it.

There are many kinds of DME, some is often discarded because it has been superseded and greatly improved by the manufacturers. Sure most of it is overpriced (originally) and your intentions seem good. BUT you must be very aware of the needs of the actual people you transfer these items. Aside from things like wheelchairs, those many pieces of DME which you may transfer to others, may do more harm than good, even dangerous.

Manual chairs seem to be a better option in some of the less developed areas (countries) of our planet
where power chairs haven't the ground clearance necessary for users, or available electric power to recharge the batteries.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 14 Dec 2017, 23:57

Sully wrote:scout everything you said in your last post is probably right. BUT you fail to see the actual problem that you first brought up. The actual location where a person could deliver a used wheelchair and where thes could and would be made available to people who want or use such items.


If you expect the chair to be delivered to your doorstep (like a vendor would), then you won't be able to avail yourself of "recycled equipment". You could possibly take the initiative and PAY a livery service to pick up the chair from one of these organizations and bring it to you. But, again, all you'll end up with is a chair -- no "support" to even verify it hasn't been damaged in transit.

OTOH, I'd wager most major metropolitan areas probably have a similar firm that receives such equipment. Whether or not they attach special significance to things like power chairs is up to their local management; they may see them as "junk" to be disposed of (lacking the resources to do otherwise).

How distant can client and resource be before you consider the problem impractical? How far (miles or dollars) would you go to acquire something like this? What assurances would you expect from the provider? How much hassle should they be willing to put up with "for free"?

Poorer less developed nations, or distant places from the USA are costly to send a power chair that may or may NOT be actually practical and used as suggested by BM.


A lot depends on the associated logistics. If, for example, we're shipping a container to Guatemala, it costs no more to pack it full than it does to ship it half empty. OTOH, an examination table probably benefits more recipients than a single powerchair. And, an exam table doesn't need batteries, programming, support, spares, etc.

I mentioned your location was a secret, well you mentioned the "local" place where you donated your time, where might that be? Is this a National secret?


I actually am involved with several non-profits. Currently, my physical self is freezing in Illinois while my virtual self is in Arizona (I have a server colo'ed there). I'll spend a bit of the Winter in Arizona before moving off to Florida. A primary motivation for sorting out the powerchair issue is to disentangle myself from that activity (hard to do it when you are thousands of miles away!) and shift my attention to "more portable" activities (hardware/software/systems development). The problem with non-profits is that they will eagerly take twice the number of hours of your time that you are willing to offer them. Its up to you to sort out how to make the hours you actually give them as efficient as possible.

If you locally advertise the need for such items locally (DME of all sorts) you may well eventually get the kinds of response you seek. I, myself do not wish to strip down powered chairs and ship parts to another person, for them to mark it up and sell it.


For things like powerchairs, the experience seems to be that folks want their hands held: "Where do I get the batteries? Which batteries do I buy? How do I install them? Who will transport the chair to my home? How will I get it repaired?" Mobility vendors solve that problem -- for a fee.

These non-profit groups universally seem disinterested in stripping powerchairs. Or, examination tables. Or, whatever. That's extra effort that comes at the expense of some other activity -- or, requires a commitment of floorspace/shopspace that they can't afford. Plus, the hassle of dealing with "sales", shipping, etc. That's what you're paying the mobility vendor for!

There are many kinds of DME, some is often discarded because it has been superseded and greatly improved by the manufacturers. Sure most of it is overpriced (originally) and your intentions seem good. BUT you must be very aware of the needs of the actual people you transfer these items. Aside from things like wheelchairs, those many pieces of DME which you may transfer to others, may do more harm than good, even dangerous.


Folks have different needs based on their local circumstances. A portable EKG is of little value if they don't have reliable sources of power. Or, a sheltered space in which to see patients.

In this country (US), there are strict rules regarding the use of "expired" medications, equipment, etc. Not so in many third-world countries; they'll GLADLY take a carton of albuterol that is months past its expiration date. Ditto diabetic test strips, etc.

And, an autoclave that is in need of repair will be pounced on as there are few practical sterilization alternatives ("We'll find a way of fixing it -- maybe by salvaging parts from a clothes dryer. Thank you!").

Manual chairs seem to be a better option in some of the less developed areas (countries) of our planet
where power chairs haven't the ground clearance necessary for users, or available electric power to recharge the batteries.


Even those are of dubious use. I'll be meeting with a friend who was one of the first responders in Puerto Rico to get a more detailed impression of what things were like, there. His initial comments suggested their overwhelming needs were REALLY "basic". Like almost primal! That hypothetical EKG would have sat idle all this time...
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Sully » 18 Dec 2017, 23:39

Of what use is a wheelchair at the seaport to a crip? But I simply meant the donor's general location to the final user's general location. NOT door to door, that's you're chore. If a person is in Puerto Rico in the country side, how does he get to the location where it is dropped? Please understand many, maybe most. users of battery powered equipment have no clue about batteries, sizing, kinds, even how to practically charge them. Voltage is a mystery to most, let alone Amperage. Most simply look at $$$$ out of pocket and not much more, they are not entirely aware there is a hell of a lot more, than give take! Believe me I get it. If a person "donates" he is hardly going to deliver the item. If a person is on the receiving end, how does he complete the transaction? In my opinion your project is a waste of time.

Now, if you or your organization wants to fill in the blanks between both parties, that is worthwhile. Now, if everyone is dead broke (which is likely) as was reported by the world news media in PR, for instance, NO cash in the credit card machines or banks open to get your cash out, or even if you have any financial resources in the bank. Power chairs maybe not be able to be charged anywhere. Emergency Management Services has a set scheme for allocating electric power, or any consumable services. Individuals come absolute last. Usually Hospital's come near first, Public Services as well. This is why I suggested manual chairs as a better giveaway option.

You are travelling a long very bumpy road, with a ton of curves thrown in.
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby ex-Gooserider » 19 Dec 2017, 07:24

Part of the big issue with trying to give people recycled gear like chairs is how totally lacking in 'clue' I have found most users in my experience - and there seems to be evidence in other contexts that supports it - I saw a study at one point where they looked at the severity of chair breakdowns, ranging from 'level 1' that were problems with adjustments or other simple issue that needed no parts or complex tools to fix - the sort of thing that the kind of cheap bag of tools you get with a Japanese motorcycle, or that I got with my manual chair can cover... Level two were also fairly simple, but needed parts - think flat tires on a manual chair.... Level three was either 'major surgery' parts or more difficult to diagnose, and Level four was 'structural failure' issues that were almost non-repairable...

Not surprisingly, around 90% of the reported problems were level one or two...

They found typical 'down time' where a person was unable to do school / work activities because of a chair breakdown was around a week for a level one or two problem...

They all but eliminated the down time in a test group by running them through a basic training session on basic chair maintenance and simple repairs / adjustments...

I'd estimate the longest amount of down time I'd have for a level one or two problem would be how long it took me to reach the tool box and fix the issue (granted it takes me longer because getting into a position to use the tools is harder, but...) The basics level stuff shouldn't need a training course if the person has any mechanical knowledge at all.....

But it seems like most users shouldn't be trusted with complex tools like screwdrivers, at least not until they have had a course telling them which end to hold onto... Worse, I've tried advising people and they don't even want to hear it - they would rather just call the DME dealer and then complain about how long it takes to get repairs made...

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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 19 Dec 2017, 08:25

Sully wrote:Of what use is a wheelchair at the seaport to a crip? But I simply meant the donor's general location to the final user's general location. NOT door to door, that's you're chore.


No, it isn't. Our "chore" is to apply our resources in the most effective way we can to maximize meeting our mission statement. That statement is not: "Recycle/refurbish powerchairs". Rather, it addresses reusing/recycling/repurposing as many items AS IS PRACTICAL given the operational constraints we face.

"Ma and Pa Oldfolks" will donate their old computer thinking we'll find some poor kid in a third world country who wouldn't have a computer, otherwise. "It's even got Windows 98 on it and here are the books that came with it!" No, we're not even going to look to see if it powers up. We've got a pallet of 500 i5's being shipped out; who the hell is going to research this "antique" to discover that it wasn't worth the time to research!

If a person is in Puerto Rico in the country side, how does he get to the location where it is dropped?


How would that person's "neighbors" take to the idea that the medical supplies they wanted/needed didn't get shipped cuz there was only space/funds available for his powerchair?

Please understand many, maybe most. users of battery powered equipment have no clue about batteries, sizing, kinds, even how to practically charge them. Voltage is a mystery to most, let alone Amperage. Most simply look at $$$$ out of pocket and not much more, they are not entirely aware there is a hell of a lot more, than give take! Believe me I get it. If a person "donates" he is hardly going to deliver the item. If a person is on the receiving end, how does he complete the transaction? In my opinion your project is a waste of time.


We're in complete agreement! My recommendation, to my (elsewhere) colleagues has been to toss the chairs in the tip as soon as they arrive. Take comfort in knowing that they won't end up in a landfill and fault "The System" for the inefficiency/inequality that makes this the most practical solution.

For the local group, I've recommended they contact the guy that bought the last one and ask him if he wants these. Give him a couple of days to stop by AND REMOVE THEM. After that, discard them along with his contact information. I realize he may be busy, short-staffed, lack storage space, etc. -- i.e., all of the problems that WE face. But, we can be rid of these behemoths in short order by tossing them in the metal bin and accepting the ~$10 scrap value for them (remove batteries prior to disposition as the lead is processed differently from the steel). If it's not "profitable" for him at $20/each (recall, we get $10 for "doing nothing") for him to remove them PROMPTLY, then that's a reflection of his costs of picking up, triaging and storing them. The space that those six chairs (this past week) are taking up is sorely needed for other items...
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 19 Dec 2017, 08:41

ex-Gooserider wrote:Part of the big issue with trying to give people recycled gear like chairs is how totally lacking in 'clue' I have found most users in my experience - and there seems to be evidence in other contexts that supports it - I saw a study at one point where they looked at the severity of chair breakdowns, ranging from 'level 1' that were problems with adjustments or other simple issue that needed no parts or complex tools to fix - the sort of thing that the kind of cheap bag of tools you get with a Japanese motorcycle, or that I got with my manual chair can cover... Level two were also fairly simple, but needed parts - think flat tires on a manual chair.... Level three was either 'major surgery' parts or more difficult to diagnose, and Level four was 'structural failure' issues that were almost non-repairable...

Not surprisingly, around 90% of the reported problems were level one or two...


Yup. IIRC, one quarter of all "product warranty returns" test as "no defect found" -- i.e., the user simply didn't understand how to use the product. (e.g., high percentage of "bad" disk drives are not defective at all)

They all but eliminated the down time in a test group by running them through a basic training session on basic chair maintenance and simple repairs / adjustments...


The problem there is that most folks don't want to be bothered with putting in that level of effort. How many times do folks ask questions that are clearly answered in the manual/instructions? It's so much easier to play the role of helpless idiot and expect someone else to solve your problem FOR you.

I'd estimate the longest amount of down time I'd have for a level one or two problem would be how long it took me to reach the tool box and fix the issue (granted it takes me longer because getting into a position to use the tools is harder, but...) The basics level stuff shouldn't need a training course if the person has any mechanical knowledge at all.....


But, they have to be motivated to solving THEIR PROBLEM. Recall, it's YOU who is "immobile", not the guy you're calling to fix it!

Have a neighbor who was always posing (house maintenance) problems and, when I'd tell him how to handle it, he'd put on the idiot face: "How do you do that?" Of course, this invariably meant I'd have to SHOW him. This, of course, means I, effectively END UP DOING IT FOR HIM!

This went on for a few months (felt sorry for him as he was caregiver to a wife who'd been "vegetablized" by a botched surgery). One day, he was lamenting his high gas bill -- first of the "winter" season. I knew exactly what the problem was. And, could already hear the conversation that would ensue. And, see myself climbing onto his roof to do the repair. So, I just shrugged my shoulders and told him to call a plumber.

(i.e., if you don't have the skills to maintain a house, then be prepared to pay someone to do that or move into an appartment?)

But it seems like most users shouldn't be trusted with complex tools like screwdrivers, at least not until they have had a course telling them which end to hold onto... Worse, I've tried advising people and they don't even want to hear it - they would rather just call the DME dealer and then complain about how long it takes to get repairs made...


Or, how much those repairs cost! ("All he did was swap out a little part. He wasn't here for 15 minutes and he charged me $X!")

<frown>
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Sully » 19 Dec 2017, 20:31

Quote; "(i.e., if you don't have the skills to maintain a house, then be prepared to pay someone to do that or move into an appartment?)" :thumbup:

I can agree with this sentiment 100%, however we are comparing apples with oranges. Some person's who uses; for example a power chair, and buys one of necessity not simply because they think it would be an asset, and likely is apprehensive about simply riding in/on it, let alone making the necessary repairs or maintenance it may require. :( These folks use one of necessity is: they're crips such as I am.

Parts (NEW) are expensive, :twisted: the simplest thing like screws or bolts that most dealers or repair shops charge terrible prices for, and can often be bought anywhere such items are commonly sold, for a few cents. But charging some exorbitant price is what causes clever folks to do it themselves. People who cannot physically or have the skills to make such repairs seems to fit the definition of thievery. IN my opinion you are removing the parts, which people who affect their own repairs, from the open market. Your cohorts and yourself are not seeing that taking powered chairs away for a proposed good scheme, and then dumping them in the rubbish bin. :evil: I don't deny your good intentions, but we can all see that those good intentions may well lead to destruction, if not very, very carefully thought out. czy

Do you tell your donors their chairs, may well end up in some junkyard? That it may be of little or no value to most anyone? I have bought several powered wheelchairs in the past, some for parts, some for use. There is always someone somewhere who might make some kind of use of these things. :thumbup: MY POINT IS; you are not being truthful with your donors! :thumbdown: Let "them" make the actual choice with which they want to do with their less than useful chair. I see the same thing promised by many (most) so called charitable organizations, :thumbdown: you are hardly the first nor will you be the last to actually defraud these hopeful and generous people.

NOW this is just my opinion. :argument

These chairs very much like computers have little value on the open market. Their value is to a very limited amount of people. I, now do not have the wherewithal to make such repairs, however, someplace there is someone who will take my place. Don't rob him/her from their chance to become more self sufficient. :thumbdown:
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 21 Dec 2017, 08:53

Sully wrote:IN my opinion you are removing the parts, which people who affect their own repairs, from the open market. Your cohorts and yourself are not seeing that taking powered chairs away for a proposed good scheme, and then dumping them in the rubbish bin. :evil:


First of all, "NOTHING" goes in the "rubbish bin" or the "junkyard". A powerchair will, for example, have its batteries sent off to have their lead reclaimed (presumably to make new batteries, of some sort) and the metal recast into other, "new" metal objects. The copper from the motors might be reclaimed (depends on how aggressive the recycler is). The cushions and plastic parts WILL go in the trash (they are too costly to recycle -- recyclers see no value in their materials).

Recycling is highly inefficient -- as evidenced by the fact that the chair is "worth" $10 to the recycler -- despite having possibly sold for thousands of dollars, originally.

Reuse is the preferred approach as the chair retains it's original purpose and, presumably, "added value".

Repurposing is a compromise that allows it to continue as a useful device albeit in another role (e.g., as a motorized platform for a local youth robotics club)

Trash/rubbish/landfill represent total losses of value; the item is discarded. It costs us money to throw things away -- just like it would any business (the city charges for waste disposal).

Do you tell your donors their chairs, may well end up in some junkyard? That it may be of little or no value to most anyone?


We tell people that our goal is to "reuse, repurpose and recycle, in that order". We commit to keeping the items out of the "trash". Nothing is hidden from donors -- the dumpsters/rolloffs that contain the materials destined for recycling (steel, copper/aluminum, paper, cardboard, wire, etc.) are located right alongside the dropoff location (where donors park their vehicles). Folks who spy something in one of those containers are welcome to ask for it -- the understanding being that they will then be reusing or repurposing it (thus saving it from the "recycle" fate to which we've already condemned it).

[I can't speak for every such facility; only those that I've visited]

You've not considered the many reasons why things find their way to us.

Most "corporate" donations are either write-offs or "required" by the organizations financial structure (they have to donate them to a certified 501(c)3 -- or, undertake the hassle of auctioning them off). It's not uncommon to have a panel truck drop by each day with 2-6 pallets of goods to be "processed". Most of these donors know the routine and will ensure the donation is "clean" (contains nothing that we would have to toss in the trash).

Individuals are "costlier" donors. They want to believe that their donations have value -- even though they are really looking to discard them:
  • used clothing that wouldn't be suitable to wash a car
  • half bottles of shampoo
  • (someone donated a roll-on antiperspirant that was half used -- do you think anyone wants to put that up against their skin??)
  • expired medications
  • National Geographic magazines (everyone thinks the pictures are "so wonderful")
  • laptops that are missing their power adapter
  • a printer/scanner/FAX/etc. that is unsupported in every OS more recent than Windows 98 ("maybe you can find a use for it?")
  • etc.
If they are honest with themselves, they already know the answers to these questions. If we tell them that we'll just be recycling the items because they have outlived their useful life, they won't retract their donation... they want to be rid of the items!

Note that each of these items has to be examined, triaged and processed -- by a volunteer.

In the case of powerchairs, it's most often: "Mom/Dad passed away and we're moving Dad/Mom into a retirement home. Dad/Mom has no need for Mom/Dad's powerchair and the trash folks won't accept items like this. Hopefully, you can find a new home for it with someone who can use it. (No, we don't know where the key is and the batteries are run down and we didn't realize there was a charger involved... sorry!)"

I have bought several powered wheelchairs in the past, some for parts, some for use. There is always someone somewhere who might make some kind of use of these things. :thumbup:


Sure! In an ideal world, we'd have unlimited warehouse space, people with all varieties of technical abilities and skill sets, a full workshop with all the "right" tools to fix anything that comes along, a large staff willing to work for free and a small army of "distributors" wandering through the population looking for folks that are in need so the fleet of freely maintained trucks can deliver whatever items might be needed to whomever might need them. Plus the support network to maintain and service those items, free of charge, in perpetuity!

In reality, we have a handful of volunteers working out of cramped, unheated quarters processing MILLIONS (literally) of pounds of donated goods each year (i.e., about 5000 pounds daily).

MY POINT IS; you are not being truthful with your donors! :thumbdown: Let "them" make the actual choice with which they want to do with their less than useful chair. I see the same thing promised by many (most) so called charitable organizations, :thumbdown: you are hardly the first nor will you be the last to actually defraud these hopeful and generous people.


I've advocated refusing donations from individuals. They are, invariably, more work than they are worth. Let "Mom" figure out some other way to dispose of "Dad's" powerchair. Or, the "hospital bed" that they had purchased (and in which he died). Or, his CPAP. Or his oxygen concentrator. Or, the lift sling. Or, the medications he didn't live long enough to consume. Or, the clothes that he used to wear. Or, his PC, rear projection TV, etc. At pennies on the pound, the loss of these items would easily be offset by the time saved by not having to process them! We've enough "clean" donations (from hospitals, businesses and other organizations that can do the first level assessment of the reusability of these items) that can tax our resources to their limits, already! When a panel truck drops off 6 pallets/gaylords of equipment, the next day or two may be shot just trying to sort through it all to decide how to process it and locate "clients" to whom we can unload large amounts of those goods ("maybe Charity X will take all of this clothing off our hands?"). Mom/Dad showing up with a car that we'll have to unload takes a disproportionate amount of resources to process their "donation".

Hint: most municipalities won't take any of these things in their "trash" -- many being considered as "hazardous waste" requiring separate processing "regular household waste". Let alone the environmental impact (landfill, incinerator) of "more trash". Our accepting them is a service to the individuals who would otherwise be unable to dispose of those items (at least not in any "legal" way). E.g., try legally discarding a CRT monitor (or a projection TV) in most municipalities: we'll actually ensure that it gets routed to folks who will disassemble the tubes and reclaim the heavy metals, etc.

These chairs very much like computers have little value on the open market. Their value is to a very limited amount of people. I, now do not have the wherewithal to make such repairs, however, someplace there is someone who will take my place. Don't rob him/her from their chance to become more self sufficient. :thumbdown:


You don't have the "wherewithal" to make those repairs. How about offering storage- and work-space to someone who does? And, cover the cost of shipping these items to you for that processing? I can probably arrange for a truck to arrive at your "facility" every day, indefinitely! Of course, you'll have to find the folks to do those repairs and distribute the repaired items. And, the truck driver won't unload (he's typically only paid to drive) so be sure you've got folks on hand to unload WHEN he arrives (he gets paid by the hour whether he's driving or not so you don't want him standing around waiting for your guys!).

If you don't have the space for that, maybe just write some checks to folks who can undertake those actions in your name? Surely you must care about this issue?!

[Wanna bet the "local" guy who bought those last chairs (no doubt thinking he was going to resell them and make a few bucks) doesn't come back for this next batch of six? He'll discover that they are hard to get rid of and take up space -- the same issues that we face! Watch Craig's List and notice how many "repeat" listings you see... week after week.]

That will leave the rest of us time to process the low vision aids for blind and visually impaired clients. And, build the computers for those school children who can't afford to have their own computer at home. And, sort through the diabetic supplies for folks who can't otherwise have access to them. And, refurbish the equipment from that retiring dentist's office so folks in some underdeveloped part of the world can have dental care.

Before you go looking down your nose at those of us who are actually trying to do something about these problems, maybe you should drag your ass out and give some of your time or money to claim some aspect of the "high moral ground". I volunteer alongside folks who are developmentally disabled, autistic, blind, confined to wheelchairs, deaf, etc. There's always something they can do -- what's your excuse? I.e., even if ALL you can do is type on a computer (to participate in a web forum), you can type up shipping manifests, grant proposals, write thank you notes to donors, etc. -- all things that someone has to do thereby freeing up their time to work on those things that you can't!

Or, are you just a freeloader? Who are you preying upon (defrauding)?
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Burgerman » 21 Dec 2017, 10:20

Summary. Nobody wants old wheelchairs. Or they have no value. What exactly do you want?
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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby ex-Gooserider » 27 Dec 2017, 05:00

Won't work every place, but there are a LOT of people doing seemingly successful (as in they seem to stay around...) businesses on e-Bay selling used chair parts.... Check on fleabay for some and see if any are in the local area, and give them a call, if they are within driving distance, I'm sure there would be interest in making arrangements to pick up the donated chair offerings at low cost....

I believe the reason you see so many repeat listings of chairs from private sellers on e-Bay, Craig's list, etc. is that most people have grossly inflated ideas about what those used chairs have for resale value - they see the over-inflated price that was on the invoice they got from the DME, and think that offering a discount off that price makes a 'bargain' - which might even be reasonable if it was a used car or other good normally sold in the retail market... They don't get that the real market value is closer to 90-95% off the 'invoice' so they keep re-listing it at slightly lower prices each time until after several months they either give up and try to make a charitable donation of it or finally reach a reasonable price... Given the US tax laws (at least in the past, not sure how the latest law changes it) the 'value' of the tax deduction can be greater than the market value of the used chair, which makes for more incentive to 'donate' it....

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Re: Disposition of "previous owner" chairs

Postby Scout » 20 Jan 2018, 01:33

ex-Gooserider wrote:Won't work every place, but there are a LOT of people doing seemingly successful (as in they seem to stay around...) businesses on e-Bay selling used chair parts.... Check on fleabay for some and see if any are in the local area, and give them a call, if they are within driving distance, I'm sure there would be interest in making arrangements to pick up the donated chair offerings at low cost....


I checked in with those folks yesterday. The guy who'd been buying the chairs for $20 obviously discovered the same thing they had -- that they take up a lot of room and are hard to "move" (as in "get rid of"). So, he's not interested in buying any more. As a result, they've been processing the chairs as scrap metal. It's "sinful" but a matter of practical economies (space, labor, time, etc.)

I believe the reason you see so many repeat listings of chairs from private sellers on e-Bay, Craig's list, etc. is that most people have grossly inflated ideas about what those used chairs have for resale value - they see the over-inflated price that was on the invoice they got from the DME, and think that offering a discount off that price makes a 'bargain' - which might even be reasonable if it was a used car or other good normally sold in the retail market... They don't get that the real market value is closer to 90-95% off the 'invoice' so they keep re-listing it at slightly lower prices each time until after several months they either give up and try to make a charitable donation of it or finally reach a reasonable price...


I see many listings that are obviously originating from "mobility vendors". You'd think they, of all people, would understand this depreciated value...? OTOH, they probably already have storage space for "one more chair" so the possibility that someone will nibble is pure profit (doesn't cost anything to list something that doesn't sell!)

Given the US tax laws (at least in the past, not sure how the latest law changes it) the 'value' of the tax deduction can be greater than the market value of the used chair, which makes for more incentive to 'donate' it....


Therein lie dragons. The donor sets the value of the donation. And, the donor has to justify that to the IRS in the event of an audit -- all the charity will do is attest to the fact that an item roughly meeting that description was donated on a particular date and acknowledged by "employee X". E.g., when we make significant donations, we do a search of CL and eBay for similar COMPLETED transactions and save copies of those listings -- along with photographs of the items we've donated -- to justify the value we declared (i.e., "Similar items ACTUALLY SOLD for $X at that time"). At the very least, it demonstrates that you made a conscious effort to come up with a real value instead of just pulling a number out of the air (what you HOPED it would be worth).
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