Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 17 Feb 2018, 21:29

Re the rims and Shirley. Without wishing to appear nosey, is Shirley someone you know living china?


Those 9 uk pound rims are available in the EU/UK from monkey bike (those little hondas) in 2.5 or 3.5 wide. For 50 to 100 each! :clap And you wonder how they stay in business. Heres the cheapest tubeless 3.5J X8 one bit rims in the UK https://www.minibikecraze.co.uk/shop/wh ... less-3-5j/ but way more than 9...

So Shirley_hkg on this site is kind enough to buy and ship from HK because we are too stupid to read chinese on their version of ebay/industrial sellers site...
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 17 Feb 2018, 22:17

Before and after!

Bicycle tyres, fragile weak looking, overloaded, and tubes, and narrower than the arms so less stable laterally than it could be, for nothing. All stock powerchairs are like this with their flimsy stock 3.00 x 8 tyres. Looks so institutionalised and spindly with skinny grey tyres and they are too fragile for a 185kg rehab chair. And it looks bad, I cant drive this without a bag over my head.
Quickie-Salsa-2.jpg

Doesent look quite so fragile or effeminate now!
810_2132.JPG

Wider base, greater stability, tubeless, heavy highway construction tyres with far higher max weight or load rating capability. No tubes to fail or go pop or deflate when you run over a thorn...
-Puncture seal installed, although much less likely to ever be needed due to lighter loading low pressures and stronger tyres. it actually works 100% garanteed on tubeless tyre/rims up to a 8mm hole.
-Also its now wider (bad for most people). But since I am fat, and have wide comfortable arm tops (P shaped jay ones), and an 18 to 20 inch cushion, the tyres are still only the same total width at 27.5 inches as the arms are across the top. So they are not going to stop me getting through any doorway that the arms also fit through. Wider tyres spread load, so dont sink as much on my lawn, last massively longer, and look better, and offer better lateral stability.

More comparisons! Before:

Quickie-Salsa8.jpg


After, lnow ooks more like a grown mans chair... I can venture out without a bag over my head. Rather than looking like some institutionalized flimsy motorised deck chair.
810_2136.JPG
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby expresso » 17 Feb 2018, 22:45

Burgerman wrote:Expresso, I think this is going to be another thing thats hard to find in the US.

Try searching for:
Heidenau K75 120/70-8
or
Duro Or Kitaco 120/70-8

Both are the same diameter as what you have now actually a fraction less. But are low profile and so wider. You need the 3.5J wide rims for these - very cheap. From that chinese auction site or if shirley will ship them too you even better. If you ask him nicely! But right now hes still in 2017 and drunk. drunk2

If you want to fit the same size as you have now, those are available in 3.50 8 as well, and are on one of my chairs. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... r-1024.jpg and in this case with a cheap steel tubeless rim.


thanks - i know if i go down that road its going to give me headaches - but also i dont want to widen my chair if i ever do it - 3.5J rims may be wider than they are now - its already wide now - i was curious about the tire and use it on my split rim with tubes - if i ever decide i want to try tubeless - its going to be a pain - i dont have the kind of help i need to try and test and change tires etc, - besides the spacer or adapter i will need -

thats not on my agenda yet - but can change if i feel i can pull it off - i have spare rims - same ones i have on my chair - split for tubes - i am thinking of getting a spare set of tires - tubes and have them mounted and ready if ever needed - i will do a search - google to see what i come up with -

what tire size would be best if i stay with a 2.5 wide rims - or 2.75 wide ?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 17 Feb 2018, 23:09

Your rims may be 1.75, 2, or even 2.25. Its highly unlikely they are 2.5 wide. It may say so, but that may mean a 2.50 tyre can be used and not rim width. As fitted to many mobility chairs. If your rim is not 2.50 wide as I suspect, then the rims I have are also available in a narrower 2.50 inches. And still tubeless.

So to know what tyres you can use you need to measure between the rims. Like this:

Image

If its really 2.5 inches you should be able to use stock 3.00 x 8 but the rim outside would be as wide as the tyre is. Or 3.50 x 8 perfectly as you have now, just about get away with a 110/80 - 8.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby expresso » 17 Feb 2018, 23:46

i have the spare rims away now - next chance i get - i will measure just to know for myself - if using a 2.5 inch rim with same 350-8 tire i have now - would that make the chair wider than what it is now - ?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 00:47

Not by enough to notice. It will just look better and use all of the tread rather than the middle.
A 3.50 tyre is about 3.6 on a 2.5 rim. And about 3.4 on a 2 inch rim.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby expresso » 18 Feb 2018, 01:04

i see what your saying - instead of more oval looking - would be more flat wide looking - gives the impression is wider but really not by much

if i stick with a 2.5 rim - going any wider on the rim will affect the width -

to keep it the same width as it is right now - i would have to use a 2.5 inch with a 3.50-8 tire or similar - but not any wider tire on a 2.5 rim
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 18 Feb 2018, 10:16

The chair looks really good, the new rims and tyres make so much difference :thumbup:. I wish I had a tenth of your engineering and powerchair knowledge.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 18 Feb 2018, 10:28

Burgerman wrote:
Re the rims and Shirley. Without wishing to appear nosey, is Shirley someone you know living china?



So Shirley_hkg on this site is kind enough to buy and ship from HK because we are too stupid to read chinese on their version of ebay/industrial sellers site...
Ah! I remember seeing the guys name now. Before asking I googled shirley’s Wheels and all the hits I got was www.sheliaswheels that old aussie ins company. Lol
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 10:29

Fitting the wheels doesent need much engineering. Just a big fat alloy "washer" with some holes drilled in the right place. As long as you can measure, you can order what you need directly even with holes lazer cut, from an online lazer cutting service in 2018. You just need to tap 4 holes in the precut holes yourself in your hands, and countersink 4 blank non threaded holes with a drill.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby shirley_hkg » 18 Feb 2018, 10:49

Burgerman wrote:
These tyres are 18mm bigger diameter and 6mm narrower than the other set. But they are harder to get off the bead after inflation so safer if you want to run really low pressures. Both types are fine at 20psi or higher. Been testing. Down to 10 both types, they are OK. So 20 is very secure. running at the recommended 36psi they are super safe. I think I had a leaking valve core before, that let one tyre go to a real low pressure. Its hard to tell because the sidewalls are stiffer than mobility sized tyes. So you cant easily tell its deflated a lot.



Glad that the rims I recommended are up to standard , or shame on me otherwise ! :dance givebeer
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 11:14

Wouldnt be your fault anyway! Are you in this year yet? :mrgreen: cheers
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 18 Feb 2018, 12:07

Burgerman wrote:Fitting the wheels doesent need much engineering. Just a big fat alloy "washer" with some holes drilled in the right place. As long as you can measure, you can order what you need directly even with holes lazer cut, from an online lazer cutting service in 2018. You just need to tap 4 holes in the precut holes yourself in your hands, and countersink 4 blank non threaded holes with a drill.

WCS are coming round for a home visit tomorrow, I'm hoping I might be able to persuade them to get me a Salsa R2. If not a few SR2s do pop up on eBay most weeks. But all the 'used' SR2s I've seen have the leg hangers rather than the centre footplate.

If WCS provide me with an SR2 or I buy one privately can it be improved without too much work or modification? Especially if it's a WCS chair which won't be mine. You've shown how you upgraded the rims and tyres.

For Example

1) you've moved your seat back to improve the handling by shifting your COG, was that quite easy to do?
2) you've got a centre footplate which I think you ordered with the chair? If I end up with a chair that has leg hangers can I remove them and fit a centre footplate?
3) BTW have you changed the programming on your new chair? Someone in this forum kindly supplied me with the PGDT and a lead that I used to program a couple of S-Drive but I'm not sure if the software and lead would work with a powerchair controller which I'm imagine is a bit more complicated than a scooter.

This is a picture of my manual chair which has a fixed centre footplate and active COG set up. The chair is set up for wheeling rather than sitting stationary, and I'd like a fixed footplate and active set up on a powerchiar as well, although not as extreme as my manual chair. Also a more relaxed seat back angle for comfortable sitting and chilling. NB: The manual chair has more seat bucket than the picture shows because it has a scalloped cushion for your bum and thin 5.5mm plywood seat base which flexes when I park my derriere in it.

PS: Sorry if this is a bit 101 and I am a bit of a nuisance to all you powerchair gurus :oops:
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 12:33

WCS are coming round for a home visit tomorrow, I'm hoping I might be able to persuade them to get me a Salsa R2. If not a few SR2s do pop up on eBay most weeks. But all the 'used' SR2s I've seen have the leg hangers rather than the centre footplate.

The centre legrest, or the power centre legrest is a "build for me" option. When ordering. Fitting one afterwards is possible but expensive.
They generally also have wobbly lift up arms that dont allow good control since the joystick wobbes with them. And they have an unbelievably loose wobbly swing away for the joystick. That sits it both too low, and too outboard for comfort or any chance of good control once programmed so it steers and goes.
And it also will have weal low powered controller, and weedy 2 pole motors. Because thats what they think is adequate for 4mph when supplied by wheelchair services...
If WCS provide me with an SR2 or I buy one privately can it be improved without too much work or modification? Especially if it's a WCS chair which won't be mine. You've shown how you upgraded the rims and tyres.

Only by throwing away controller for a bigger one, 2 pole motors for 4 pole ones, smaller batteries for bigger grp 24 ones, added lights, possibly a better joystick, swing away mont for a better non wobbly one, chair arms and fitting single post ones, swing away foortrests and replacing with centre ones. By the time you do that you may as well order the chair right in the first place. But the WCS will likely not do that so you will need a budget, and discount to do it instead or find a used one with centre footplate, and 4 pole etc.

For Example

1) you've moved your seat back to improve the handling by shifting your COG, was that quite easy to do?

I altered the base angle, by drilling a couple of new holes, and the tilt/recline module that most dont have, has a lot of holes to allow movement. But you also need to modify the oversized centre footplate to stop the actuator hitting the tyre if you have powered legs. And you cant do it at all with swing aways, meaning its always going to be nose heavy and unsteerable... And long.

2) you've got a centre footplate which I think you ordered with the chair? If I end up with a chair that has leg hangers can I remove them and fit a centre footplate?

At considerable expense. And a power one is a lot more! And needs correct actuator module, different joystick, and programming etc.

3) BTW have you changed the programming on your new chair? Someone in this forum kindly supplied me with the PGDT and a lead that I used to program a couple of S-Drive but I'm not sure if the software and lead would work with a powerchair controller which I'm imagine is a bit more complicated than a scooter.

Drastically. All stock chairs are undrivable. But you need R-Net for most and possibly VR2 with your lead for the lower powered ones. Depends on what was ordered.

Basically a base level salsa is useless to me. And with all the options the price more than doubles. And its still useless until its modified, seat moved, reprogrammed, etc. So its best to decide exactly what you need, and download the prescription form and read it very carefully.

Heres mine:
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/ordered.pdf Base model is cheap. This however comes out at about 10k with custom options not on that form, eg: centre power footplate, 120A power module, black paint, advanced colour joystick, etc. Less whatever discount you can get. I got mine through a different means. But you can get 20 to 25 percent online if you accept responsibility, as in supply only. From quite a few dealers.

Because the options I have are not on that form its unlikely you will find one used this way. And SMALL changes and options and fixes make the difference between usable or hopelessly unusable. Even WITH all the correct selections, when the salsa first arrived I tried it.

I didnt fit in it. So 3 hours later with arms and seat size reconfigured I tried again. It wouldnt turn. Too nose heavy. Feet stuck out ahead. So seat moved, and footplate modified. Rinse and repeat. Better but control pod required you had a broken wrist to operate. So that was raised, moved in by 4 inches. Tried again. Cant hit a doorway. Programming begins... Etc etc...
After a week I had everything right. Still feels very heavy, and programming and seat base angle still need fine tuning.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby woodygb » 18 Feb 2018, 12:53

The lead can be re-purposed by changing the plug from a Molex to an XLR or by the addition of a plug in adapter lead MOLEX <-> XLR .
The lead will program most of the PGDT range of wheelchair/scooter controllers but NOT R-NET.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 18 Feb 2018, 14:14

Wow, how stupid am I !!! It just goes to show how a little knowledge is dangerous. I thought, buy an old chair, change the wheels, move the seat back, knock up a centre footplate out of a piece of ally checkerplate, tweak the programming and I'm I'd have the same chair as BM! Lol

I don't hold out a lot of hope re WCS but am not too fussed anyway. I think the best option for someone like me with not a lot of knowledge and ropey engineering skills would be to go down the road of buying a basic Kilmore chair. I've got a few quid put aside just for this very eventuality and at least I know I'd be getting something well made. Because of chronic pain (I'm not whinging) as others suffer worse than me, plus limited skills I get frustrated when doing small diy or engineering jobs. They don't go right cos I've not got the skill or knowledge and me joints and tendons start playing up and I get impatient and the tools end up everywhere. I think discretion is the better part of valour as far as I'm concerned and I'd be better putting my money into a kilmore chair.

But I would still like to get a new lead or adapter so I could tweak the programming myself. When the time comes I'll PM woodygb if that's okay? He sorted me out well before and I don't mind paying a premium for his time and postage, better than me buying the wrong thing. But I'll wait until I get the chair.

PS BM: I looked through your order form and now understand what you mean. The comment next to the supplied 8A charger made me laugh. I've got one of them for my big sunrise scooter, and their 5A one for my small sunrise scooter. Although with the 5A charger the fan keeps on coming off the spindle and I have to it and superglue it back on, although it only lasts a few months before it starts rattling again.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby rover220 » 18 Feb 2018, 15:14

Wcs usually spec Rnet controls albeit 90a but easily swapped. Centre footplate easy if you want fixed. I have many lying around.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby expresso » 18 Feb 2018, 16:39

Burgerman wrote:Fitting the wheels doesent need much engineering. Just a big fat alloy "washer" with some holes drilled in the right place. As long as you can measure, you can order what you need directly even with holes lazer cut, from an online lazer cutting service in 2018. You just need to tap 4 holes in the precut holes yourself in your hands, and countersink 4 blank non threaded holes with a drill.


sounds easy enough for someone like you - and it is i guess compared to other projects - even though - i am not able to dill or precut holes myself and would have to find someone who knows more and who would be willing to do it for me - which again in my case would cost me - i would have to ask my old tech.

if things fall into place i may be willing to try it - till then i have to stick with what i have and its not bad either - i wouldnt go back to stock tires - grey and thin now - - so its an improvement for sure -
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 16:48

Wcs usually spec Rnet controls albeit 90a but easily swapped. Centre footplate easy if you want fixed. I have many lying around.


Wouldnt mind one for my currently under construction BM2.5L green chair. But with tilt you really need the adjustment to be able to keep the chair short if tilted a little indoors. No tilt? Fixed is fine.

They also spec 2 pole motors. So 120A controller wouldnt make a difference as the motors are double the impedance. They likely wont pull even 90A? Also often 4mph. :fencing Its all about £££ saving.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby rover220 » 18 Feb 2018, 17:06

Burgerman wrote:
Wcs usually spec Rnet controls albeit 90a but easily swapped. Centre footplate easy if you want fixed. I have many lying around.


Wouldnt mind one for my currently under construction BM2.5L green chair. But with tilt you really need the adjustment to be able to keep the chair short if tilted a little indoors. No tilt? Fixed is fine.

They also spec 2 pole motors. So 120A controller wouldnt make a difference as the motors are double the impedance. They likely wont pull even 90A? Also often 4mph. :fencing Its all about £££ saving.


Always 4mph
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 18 Feb 2018, 20:41

rover220 wrote:Wcs usually spec Rnet controls albeit 90a but easily swapped. Centre footplate easy if you want fixed. I have many lying around.
Really? I'll see what tomorrows brings forth with WCS.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 18 Feb 2018, 20:59

Just for discussion... I was browsing through chairs on eBay just out of curiosity and I saw this Salsa. Putting aside the limited batteries, controller, joystick, motors, etc? If someone like me who doesn't particularly need a tilting chair, the tilting actuator in the photo and that hideous front anti-tip thing could be removed. Then if I could buy a used footplate to fit or if not even with my limited engineering skills I'm sure I could knock up some form of fixed position footplate. I know i would have to be careful that it didn't foul the castors, but I would only need a small footplate. If you look at my rigid chair that only has small footplate. The tricky bit would be clamping the footplate mounting to that front seat tube? Then move the seat back and fit better wheels tyres. It obviously wouldn't be up to BM's standard and nowhere the same performance. But it would be okay for someone like me as a learning chair. I'll wait until WCS visit tomorrow morning and if not try and pick a used Salsa R2 on eBay to play around with before contemplating spending big bucks on a Kilmore chair.
Sorry I was just thinking out loud and I'll now shut up now as this is BMs thread.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby woodygb » 18 Feb 2018, 21:04

LOL....That hideous anti tip is a kerb climber ...you bump up hard against a kerb and it lifts the castor wheels for you .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD2IbGrtqZA
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 21:04

Other than the wobby arms that I personally would find hard to lift on without failure, and difficult to drive well as the joystick moves around nothing really wrong as such. It will work. Get a centre footplate, remove swingaway things. It will be nose heavy, need seat relocation, and programming. Its likely to not steer well regardless because of 2 pole motors, and be 4mph slow. But as long as you realise that its fine. It works in a fashion as most are like this!

But its a starting point at least. And 4 pole motors go for 200 used.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby rover220 » 18 Feb 2018, 21:26

Scooterman wrote:
rover220 wrote:Wcs usually spec Rnet controls albeit 90a but easily swapped. Centre footplate easy if you want fixed. I have many lying around.
Really? I'll see what tomorrows brings forth with WCS.


Yep 4 bolts to fit one. Exceptionally easy.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 22:55

How much for one with a small footplate? For my green chair!
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby rover220 » 18 Feb 2018, 23:05

Burgerman wrote:How much for one with a small footplate? For my green chair!


https://goo.gl/images/SSQ8i1 that type?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 18 Feb 2018, 23:08

That would do. I just need modify the top... So it fits F55S seat frame.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby snaker » 19 Feb 2018, 10:47

A friend just told me that he could make a wooden center footrest for me. Is it good or bad about wood?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 19 Feb 2018, 10:59

Well it will work...

I once started making a wooden engine. At school. In woodwork. Never finished. It would have run.
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