Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby snaker » 20 Feb 2018, 01:57

Burgerman wrote:Well it will work...

Does "work..." mean "wont work" :cussing
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 20 Feb 2018, 07:04

No it will look odd. But will work fine.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 20 Feb 2018, 17:57

woodygb wrote:LOL....That hideous anti tip is a kerb climber ...you bump up hard against a kerb and it lifts the castor wheels for you .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD2IbGrtqZA

I get it! That's quite clever actually. It's a bit like wheelchair pole-vault. It's still pig ugly though (imho :D ).
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 22 Feb 2018, 11:50

Are chairs like the Salsa modular? I.E. Is there a base chair underneath and optional extras bolted on prior to shipping? If so can they be also be unbolted and returned to a 'base chair' if not (or no longer) required? After being turned down by WCS for a powerchair, I'm trying to sort myself out with a 'used' powerchair that I can use very much like a I use a small mobility scooter I.E. Stop, Go, Rev, Turn L-R, but no real need for tilt/recline or elevate (although tilt/recline might be quite nice to have?).
The big advantage of a powerchair over a scooter would be more comfort and manoeuvrability, and more comfort and range than a man w/c.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 22 Feb 2018, 11:57

Are chairs like the Salsa modular? I.E. Is there a base chair underneath and optional extras bolted on prior to shipping? If so can they be also be unbolted and returned to a 'base chair' if not (or no longer) required?


Sometimes. But often they use alternative parts too. Best to keep all the lift, tilt etc as thats one module. And a different mechanical setup to just tilt.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 22 Feb 2018, 13:34

Burgerman wrote:Sometimes. But often they use alternative parts too. Best to keep all the lift, tilt etc as thats one module. And a different mechanical setup to just tilt.
I understand, thank you for explaining that. So I'm best looking for a chair that just has tilt, or maybe no tilt if I feel I don't really need it.

I think I'll look for a base chair but if I remember correctly? One with 6mph+ motors, R-Net controller (although I don't really understand what an one is), 60Ah+ batteries, and fabric backrest (centre footplate, COG, and wheels and tyres to be fitted at later date) I think that's right, I've read and asked so many questions lately I've confused myself! czy

Re the motor controller (i.e. PGDT type thing) on the Salsa, do they come in different Amperage options? I didn't notice that on the order form? But if I remember rightly the amperage rating of the controller only determines how much grunt the chair has and how much acceleration you can dial in. Is that correct? When cruising at top speed, level terrain, the motors might only be pulling 30A? But grunt and acceleration are very important.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 22 Feb 2018, 15:03

Ideally you want a 120A controller. But thats not common.
VR2 is or can be 90A.
R-net is or can be 70 80, 90, 120... Usually 90A with built in tilt actuator on the basic chairs.

Its about peak stall torque. Turning in place, curb, ramp, control in a difficult situation. Digging out of a hole. Thresholds. Not acceleration.

And batteries can be 60Ah or 73/80Amp hour. You want the latter. But it doesent matter as on any used chair the batteries will be junk. So you can choose better ones later. And yes 4 pole.

But while tilt/lift/power back/legs double the cost of a chair, its usually ignored when sold used. So you are better off getting one with all that if its already fitted. But you dont have to use it.

Downside? Weight. Adds flexibility into seat mounting.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 22 Feb 2018, 18:37

Burgerman wrote:Ideally you want a 120A controller. But thats not common.
VR2 is or can be 90A.
R-net is or can be 70 80, 90, 120... Usually 90A with built in tilt actuator on the basic chairs.

Its about peak stall torque. Turning in place, curb, ramp, control in a difficult situation. Digging out of a hole. Thresholds. Not acceleration.

And batteries can be 60Ah or 73/80Amp hour. You want the latter. But it doesent matter as on any used chair the batteries will be junk. So you can choose better ones later. And yes 4 pole.

But while tilt/lift/power back/legs double the cost of a chair, its usually ignored when sold used. So you are better off getting one with all that if its already fitted. But you dont have to use it.

Downside? Weight. Adds flexibility into seat mounting.

Thanks! It's slowly sinking in, by the end of the month I'll have it. Or my brain will have exploded czy
Screen Shot 2018-02-22 at 17.27.54.png

Elevate might actually be more of a benefit to me than I admit, especially in shops for top shelf items. Also I can just about stand but not walk, so could use the elevating function to make it easier for me to get upright onto my feet. In a similar way I use an elevating profiling bed to get up onto my feet.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 22 Feb 2018, 18:49

In the past I always had an old chair with elevating seat around. Not used often. But sometimes you just need it.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 22 Feb 2018, 18:55

Burgerman wrote:In the past I always had an old chair with elevating seat around. Not used often. But sometimes you just need it.
I totally agree cheers

It's a bit like buying certain tools, you might not use them that often but don't they make life easier when you do! Lol
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 22 Feb 2018, 20:06

Where they dont help is say on the beach with the dog along the waterline, or across the feilds or even the park in winter. All those actuators and added steelword turns a 120kg chair into one that looks the same in normal seated mode but its now 190kg. So its more top heavy, less capable where its not level, and sinks where its soft. And the seat mount becomes more flexible. But as everything in life, its a compromise. You know whats important to you. I am lucky. I have lots of chairs. Low light fast ones, fat tyred ones, long range lithium ones, and my new one that does tricks.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 22 Feb 2018, 23:46

Burgerman wrote:Where they dont help is say on the beach with the dog along the waterline, or across the feilds or even the park in winter. All those actuators and added steelword turns a 120kg chair into one that looks the same in normal seated mode but its now 190kg. So its more top heavy, less capable where its not level, and sinks where its soft. And the seat mount becomes more flexible. But as everything in life, its a compromise. You know whats important to you.
If I can only have one chair, then as you say it's all about compromises and I need to give it a lot of thought. Ideally two chairs would be good. An active chair without any bells and whistles for when I'm feeling adventurous, and a more sedentary chair with lots of functionality for days when I feel a bit fragile. But initially it will be just be the one chair, because like the line from the film 'Jaws', 'I'm gonna need a bigger house!' Lol

Burgerman wrote: I am lucky. I have lots of chairs. Low light fast ones, fat tyred ones, long range lithium ones, and my new one that does tricks.
You put a lot of time and thought into creating your selection of powerchairs. So you're not 'lucky' you've 'earned' them. As well as helping many others like myself through this website and forums.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 23 Feb 2018, 14:50

Instead of having to opt for 2 OR 4 pole motors. Why don't motor manufacturers bring out the tails from the 4 pole windings, and wire them into the controller. Then the the user could switch between 2 or 4 poles depending on what the terrain demands. Is this a eureka moment for me?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 23 Feb 2018, 15:39

There are no outer windings. Just magnets.

What there are is two extra sets of brushes on the same armature at 90 degrees, so it does double the work done. Like a 4 cylinder car or a V8. And so has half the impedance. Extra brushes would need fitting. And that increases the cost and the added torque needs in many cases extra gearbox strength.

And once done, theres never a time where 2 pole is better.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 23 Feb 2018, 16:05

Image

2 pole.

A 4 pole ads 2 more magnets, in the gaps. And adds 2 more brushes at 90 degrees to the ones shown here.

4 pole

Image

Pole means magnetic pole.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Scooterman » 23 Feb 2018, 17:50

Yes! silly me. You wouldn't believe I worked as an electrical technician and served a four year apprenticeship!

I'm so used to AC motors, where the windings are in the stator and it has a squirrel cage rotor, (like a copper hamster wheel embedded in a laminated iron core).

A variety of methods were used to reduce the motor starting current until the back emf had built up enough. One particular method was Star-Delta, where the six tails from the 3 stator windings would be bought out and connected to the motor 'starter'. The contactors in the starter would initially connect the 3 stator windings in Star (more resistance between phases so less current drawn), then when the motor was up to speed it would switch over and connect the windings in Delta, (less resistance between phases).

That's what made me think of externally switching the poles on a d.c. motor. But I'd forgotten d.c. motors use a wound armature and permanent magnets in the stator.

D.C. motors were obviously covered on my C&G course, but I never came across them at work. That's my defence 'Me Lord!' Lol
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby snaker » 24 Feb 2018, 02:06

@BM: My friend just gave me a sample (prototype?) of center footrest for testing. We are facing a problem in transporting. My dad has to bring me from the bed to the chair. With swing away footrests, it's not a problem. He swings away one (the right side), detaches one (the left side) therefore he can get a free space in front of the chair. But with the fixed center footrest he cannot do that. Maybe we need a kind of detachable center footrests. Have you seen it before? If so, can you give me some links or pics of it?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2018, 10:25

Most flip up.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby elryko1992 » 24 Feb 2018, 15:05

My linix motors is DEAD :thumbdown: i was thinking is the brushes but is not, and when i open the motor the one magnet is gone.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby elryko1992 » 24 Feb 2018, 15:05

This is the motor.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2018, 17:22

You didnt hear or feel that?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby expresso » 24 Feb 2018, 17:27

elryko1992 wrote:My linix motors is DEAD :thumbdown: i was thinking is the brushes but is not, and when i open the motor the one magnet is gone.


where would it have went ? it cant just disappear - it was never there from the beginning maybe ?? or was this motor used or opened before - ?
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby elryko1992 » 24 Feb 2018, 17:33

Burgerman wrote:You didnt hear or feel that?


yes i hear and feel, but i was thinking is bearings or the brushes not the magnet and in the last time the speed drop to one motor. And when i open it is dead and smells burnt. After 3 years used.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby elryko1992 » 24 Feb 2018, 17:35

expresso wrote:
elryko1992 wrote:My linix motors is DEAD :thumbdown: i was thinking is the brushes but is not, and when i open the motor the one magnet is gone.


where would it have went ? it cant just disappear - it was never there from the beginning maybe ?? or was this motor used or opened before - ?


Was there but something happened with the magnet, the chair was new and after 3 years used is dead, this is the first time when i opened the motor.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2018, 17:38

Motors dont last 3 years if you use a chair daily. Only if you sit watching TV...

I replace every 2 years regardless working or not.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby elryko1992 » 24 Feb 2018, 17:44

Burgerman wrote:Motors dont last 3 years if you use a chair daily. Only if you sit watching TV...

I replace every 2 years regardless working or not.


I used every day the chair, and i think was some water there or snow :) because i don't stay in home everyday. Now i need to found two motors.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2018, 18:07

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-JIVE ... SwIWVY-MsD

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-JIVE ... Sw2gxYpyMi

Search for salsa and you only find 2 pole weedy motors...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw ... s&_sacat=0

where would it have went ? it cant just disappear - it was never there from the beginning maybe ?? or was this motor used or opened before - ?


No idea. But they can break up... But likely was opened before. Did you buy used? Probably cracked, so taken out, reassembled... Must have been worse than the other motor! Unless that one too has one missing. I have seen them break and the loose bit jam the motor or make a terrible noise. Never dissapear! It cant. Your pictur looks odd though. Hard to see inside. Take it all apart I am interested! Its a 3 pole!
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby elryko1992 » 24 Feb 2018, 18:31

Burgerman wrote:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-JIVE-MOTORS-GEARBOXES-FOR-ELECTRIC-POWER-CHAIR/173163925976?hash=item28515fd1d8:g:qJUAAOSwIWVY-MsD

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICKIE-JIVE ... Sw2gxYpyMi

Search for salsa and you only find 2 pole weedy motors...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw ... s&_sacat=0

where would it have went ? it cant just disappear - it was never there from the beginning maybe ?? or was this motor used or opened before - ?


No idea. But they can break up... But likely was opened before. Did you buy used? Probably cracked, so taken out, reassembled... Must have been worse than the other motor! Unless that one too has one missing. I have seen them break and the loose bit jam the motor or make a terrible noise. Never dissapear! It cant. Your pictur looks odd though. Hard to see inside. Take it all apart I am interested! Its a 3 pole!


I open the second motor and is 4 magnet, is 4 pole not 3. And this where is 3 magnet have 4 brushes. That is hard to see there because all is black the magnet was eat. And the motor working but have delay when i drive, and the second motor works in parameter normal and this not and i can't drive, and when i go to maximum speed my chair is stoping.
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2018, 18:33

I am not surprised. You cant actually have a 3 pole! It was a joke. North/North/South doesent work! You mean its ground all the magnet up into dust? Lovely! Must have sounded like a washing machine full of gravel. :cussing
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Re: Jive/Salsa R2 mixture

Postby expresso » 24 Feb 2018, 18:39

Burgerman wrote:Motors dont last 3 years if you use a chair daily. Only if you sit watching TV...

I replace every 2 years regardless working or not.



your able to do that - most are not able to replace motors every two years or even after 5 years on there own - insurance dosnt pay for that unless its broken and will have a long wait for approval - parts etc, - although i use my chair alot - its mostly 4 months out of the year - i use my other chair for the winter only if i have to go out -

i have 3200 miles on my Rnet chair with lithium and 4 pole 8.5 linix motors - So Far they are solid - motors here cost ALOT NEW and even used not cheap - what worries me about used Ebay motors is you cant know if they are any better than what your replacing - i would want to send out to be rebuilt and then installed as a rebuilt new motor -

just buying used and installing them is ok if it works - then send out the old motors to be rebuilt as a back up - would cost $1000 more or less to get them rebuilt - but thats half the cost of New - so we are screwed here -
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