Chilwee batteries

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Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 19:57

Recently, friend who sells batteries recommend me these batteries. But don't know much to read technical curves and parameters and compare it for e. g. with Oddisey's. :ugeek:

here's the pdf http://www.baterije.org/specifikacijebaterija/6-EVF-80.pdf

What we think about them?
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 20:11

maybe this topic can go to HOW to choose a LEAD BATTERY

too late I saw it...
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2017, 20:24

Those would be great for solar batteries. If cheap, I may order some!

Because they maximise cycle life and capacity. But everything is a compromise. The compromise here is that they do not specify internal resistance. But it will be very high. How do I know?

Because to get a good cycle life, and a large capacity into the same sized casing, you must use low acid concentration. Its all a compromise. That reduces damage from cycling, corrosion, and allows thinner plates (more of them, increased capacity) without damage from deep discharges.

To confirm this you only need look at the Max pulse Amps for 5 seconds and compare that to the Odyssey.
-Oddysey = 1500 Amps for 5 seconds.
-These batteries = 400Amps for 5 seconds. Almost FOUR TIMES worse, and qite likely 4 times higher resistance. So instead of 2.5mOhm, you get 10 or 12mOhm...

And
Charge rate Odyssey = Recommended MINIMUM 25 Amps for the PC1500 because of low resistance. No upper limit, I charge at 40, 100 Amps regularly.
Charge rate these batteries MAXIMUM rate is just 14 Amps. Why? Because higher rates cause heat because of internal resistance.

And they do not offer any high current specification.
Theres no stated CCA (Cold Cranking Amps is around 1000 on Odyssey) or CA, but it will be really low. Which is why its not stated. It certainly wont start your car. Likewise it wont like high currents when you try to curb climb, accelerate hard, or turn in place. As the voltage will fall low.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 20:32

they are double cheaper than Oddisey PC1500DT

and it seems 5 time worse...
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2017, 20:37

I wouldnt use them in a powerchair.

Theres other issues with chinese batteries too. Other than sometimes exadurated specs. In that they do everything cheap. That includes the sometimes horrendous way they are made in damp dirty rooms, with little to control consistency. Tuesedays batteries may get good quality used remelted lead from a roof somewhere. Wednesdays batteries may get lead thats mixed with old solder, and various metal contaminations, and so cause electrolytic corrosion later when sat in acid. Its all about cheapness. But you never know what you are going to get.

Where the odyssey does not use lead alloys at all. It uses super pure 99.99% virgin lead. This allows almost no grid corrosion even when overcharged, or over discharged as theres only pure lead inside. And so theres no plate distortion or growth. So more thinner plates can be used. And a stronger electrolyte can be used, lowering resistance, and increasing power to give unrivalled current capability on charge or discharge. But super pure virgin, rather than reclaimed used alloys lead COSTS...
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 20:48

I was thinking about lithium... Reading topics for weeks, learning about cells, volts, aH's, chargers and everything about converting to lithium.

doing math about prices, but simply don't have money... All this have to wait some time :eh:
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2017, 20:50

Well look at the long term cheapness, and the range.

It may cost as much as 6 odysseys. But it gives the RANGE of 6 odysseys! And instead of lasting a year or 18 months it keeps working. So is it really more expensive?

My ex gf came from belgrade (actually lazerovac) so I understand your problem. Shes on £34k a year as a maths teacher here in the UK now. And still keeps filling my fridge with stuff!
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 21:05

Everything is perfectly clear. I have to buy one piggy bank and label it 'lithium migrations' :D
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 21:08

Hahaha, world is small. Family from my grandma's side are from Lazarevac. So it's very possible that we know same people. :D
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2017, 21:10

One of my packs is 6 years old. Still measures almost as new.

But here's the thing. If it was absolutely knackered, and down to just half original capability, it would STILL give more range than new lead...
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2017, 21:14

Hahaha, world is small. Family from my grandma's side are from Lazarevac. So it's very possible that we know same people. :D


Maybe if they are pretty girls... :lol:
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 21:20

they are :lol:
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 21:32

So, when I buy Oddisey's, as I remember I have to charge them with minimum 20A charger? So I can't use existing charger anymore? Later I wlll search on sticker how many amp have.

On the site you wrote that they can charge in one hour with 20+ amper charger and that will do no harm to batteries. With wiring direct from poles to Anderson plugin.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2017, 21:47

You can charge at 2A if you want. It takes a long time, but odyssey recommend 25A or more for cyclic use, because it allows a more complete overnight charge. It gives more time for the CV stage to complete. So lowers sulfation. It helps cycle life.

But you must really also charge at 14.4 to 14.7V. 14.7V is preferred.

Have a read here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey.pdf
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 03 Dec 2017, 22:05

super. thanks
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2017, 23:32

There are many ways to make a battery.
This is in Nepal, not great. Old plates, on the floor, by hand...
There are parts of china that are this bad! Heres both extremes.


youtu.be/MOTFBDLziHI

OR Odyssey:


youtu.be/JkstixBuwjc
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby snaker » 04 Dec 2017, 01:49

Chinese products now are not always bad. BM's videos above are too extreme. Even products in terrible quality, they still need to be made in factories to be cheap.

In VN, there are some villages where people are working with old, failed lead batteries like in Nepal. They just take them apart, get metal parts or something and then sell them to others. Batteries are made in factories, not in those villages.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 04 Dec 2017, 02:56

Batteries are made in factories, not in those villages.

But there are factories and factories.

I am trying to show the absolute extremes. Most factories are somewhere in the middle.

Odyssey is at one extreme end of quality control.
Batteries from china may be anywhere between almost as high quality as the pure lead Odyssey, (unlikely) or almost as bad as I showed. The problem is that:

a) You cant tell what you are getting as they all look nice in a new case. And since they are all some brand that either nobody has heard of, or have a bad reputation. And so far I never tested a decent lead battery from china, and I have been sent a good few over the years. Unless it was manufactured there by a reputable company to a specific standard.

b) Even if the first one you test is OK, theres little consistency, they get new metals suppliers, the air conditioning breaks down and humidity changes, etc. I say this as one example because thats the reason some lithium pouch cells "puff up" in use. The room isnt dry enough some days during assembly. No consistency.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 04 Dec 2017, 03:25

A big modern bulk battery manufacturer in china -- vid below. MOST are not like this. Batteries are still pretty bad compared to the MK or Odyssey. Because they try to compete on price. They think cheap is more important than quality.

E.g. You wont find virgin freshly manufactured consistent lead used here. Makes batteries far more expensive. You certainly will not find 99.99 percent pure virgin lead, its much more expensive still. Nor tank formed internals, etc.

Why does this matter? Its the difference in the end as to why a deep cycle odyssey can do 1500A instead of 400A 5 second pulse. Why one can start a truck in siberia, and the other cant start a car in summer. Due to the fact that is allows thinner plates, that do not distort or drop apart, due to less corrosion due to no metal impurites when sat in the stronger more conductive acid that is now possible to use. And greater consistency since all the lead, used in the grids, and the past used is the same 99.99% pure virgin lead.

With batteries, much more than most things in life, you really do get what you pay for.


youtu.be/8cicaUvXfHw
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 04 Dec 2017, 03:43

http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2010/ ... nal_17.pdf A paper on why it matters.

A quick comparison of batteries in the US that use recycled lead, V pure virgin lead. (NOT ME! Someone else did this legwork)
________________________________________________________________________


I wanted to make a quick list to compare the two types of AGMs I will use specs from G31 batteries to keep everything consistent.

Brands:
Recycled: East Penn (Deka, Duracell), Johnson Controls Inc (Optima, Interstate, Duralast), and Exide. These 3 companies make around 90% of all recycled lead batteries in the US
Virgin: Odyssey and NorthStar are the main two manufacturers, both located in the US. There are also foreign manufactured virgin lead batteries like XS Power.

Average Cost:
Recycled: $180-220 + shipping unless local
Virgin: $350-380 shipped

Warranty:
Recycled: Varying warranties. Usually 1-2 year pro-rated
Virgin: USA Made Virgin batteries have a 4 year full replacement warranty. Foreign virgin batteries usually have a 2-3 year full replacement warranty.

Life:
Recycled: 2-3 Years in commercial vehicles (semi trucks)
Virgin: 4-10 Years in commercial vehicles

Number of Cycles at 50% Discharge:
Recycled: 400
Virgin: 900

Number of Cycles at 80% Discharge:
Recycled: 200
Virgin: 400

Recharge Time:
Recycled: 10-14 Hours
Virgin: 4-6 Hours

Storage Life without Charging or Draw: (read paper at end of thread, this is a big factor of why virgin lead batteries perform better)
Recycled: 6 Months
Virgin: 2 years

AH:
Roughly the same for both options.

Cranking Amps:
Recycled: 800A (East Penn)
Virgin Lead: 1150A (NorthStar/Odyssey)

Burst Amps: (5 seconds)
Recycled: Not published... hmm I wonder why
Virgin Lead: 2150A for 5 seconds

Inter-cell connections:
Recycled: Pinch welds connect the cells
Virgin Lead: US made Virgin Lead batteries have solid internal bus bars, NOT welds going over the walls inside.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 21 Dec 2017, 20:07

BM,

Can I order this ODYSSEY PC1500DT? Will it fit in battery tray or I have to find someone to open tray to take measures anyway?
http://www.svetbaterija.rs/proizvod/odyssey-pc1500dt/1757

I have recommendation to use this charger for the batteries
https://www.voelkner.de/products/1009421/ProUser-Lademonitor-Batterieueberwachung-Mikroprozessor-Ladegeraet-25A-IBC-25000-16638-24-V-12-V.html

pdf: http://downloads.cdn.re-in.de/1500000-1599999/001561886-an-01-ml-PROUSER_AUTOMATIK_LADEGERAET_de_en_fr_nl.pdf

Image

what do you think?


thanks
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 21 Dec 2017, 21:01

To get the full cycle life from Odyssey deep cycle batteries you need a charger that will hold the battery at 14.7V (29.4) for 8 hours or 1000th C where C is battery capacity whichever occurs first. That means 68mA termination. So 50 to 100mA is OK. Any less allows more sulfates to build up each charge.

That charger may do this, but as usual, not enough information. But I doubt it will. Will it work? Yes.

What difference will it make? Maybe 250 cycles? Rather than the 450 to 500 that is possible.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 21 Dec 2017, 22:11

Burgerman wrote:
What difference will it make? Maybe 250 cycles? Rather than the 450 to 500 that is possible.

:problem:

Prosport or Hyperion can't find in my country. Ordering from US or UK, shipping is 1/3rd item price. So, everything goes pricey...

I would like to give batteries best nurture they deserve.

Or I can switch to poor man's TROJAN 24-GEL 12V 77AH (C20) 66AH (C5) and be satisfied with mobility charger hanged

my brain after big decisions
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2017, 00:57

All batteries last longer if charged at correct voltage. 14.1 gel. 14.4 to 14.7 AGM. See specs!
IGNORE stuff like 13.8 to 14.6V as this just means it works, not what gives best cycle life.
All deep cycle batteries, USED for deep cycle purposes, last much better if charged for a long time. Like 8 hours at CV volts plus 5 or 6 on a lower float voltage around 13.5 or 13.6V.

AGMs charge faster as they like higher charge volts and more current flows and electrolyte is freer flowing.

Gels last longer usually. Only if FULLY charged! Which takes 35% longer than AGM or sometimes more, See above!!!

Internal resistance, CCA level, CA, level, max Amps, etc are an EXTREMELY good way to choose a good battery. The higher this is the faster it charges, the better torque you will get, the longer it runs before the voltage drops and stops the chair, etc.

Cycle life at 80% is important. 400 to 450 OK. Esp on a low impedance high power (amp cca etc) battery. As you will actually get this. 500 cycles is always gel. Harder to charge so you likely get 400 in reality unless you CHARGE PROPERLY!!!

All batteries last longer if charged at correct voltage. 14.1 gel. 14.4 to 14.7 AGM. See specs!
All deep cycle batteries, USED for deep cycle, last much better if charged for a long time. Like 8 hours CV plus 5 or 6 on alower float voltage around 13.5 or 13.6V.


If you want to learn about batteries, battery specs, this is very helpful.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey.pdf READ CAREFULLY.
And http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK0.pdf for MK gel. ALSO READ CAREFULLY.
PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO THE CHARGE VOLTAGES! MK ESPECIALLY!!!
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2017, 12:38

www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey-tech.pdf

Are the same battery, but branded differently. So the Odyssey PC68 is called the 70EP here. More useful tech info.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby c500user » 22 Dec 2017, 16:42

I use Odyssey PC2250 batteries in my "long walks" chair, an Otto Bock C2000.
I have multiple chargers (up to 20A) but use a Victron Blue Smart 24V 8A. I know the batteries would like a higher current but the Victron has a special HIGH setting that is supposed to be used for Odyssey batteries. See page 6 of the manual.

https://www.victronenergy.nl/upload/doc ... -SE-FI.pdf

When I have set up my new PL8 I will use it to charge the Odyssey batteries at a high amperage. I do not use the C2000 wheelchair everyday so the Victron will be great to keep the batteries in good shape after the PL8 has finished charging.

I paid €136 here
https://www.bluepowershop.nl/lader-omvo ... ector.html
Permobil C500 main
Permobil C500 spare
Otto Bock C2000 long distance outdoor
Magic Mobility Extreme X8 off road
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2017, 17:31

That charger will charge most AGMs and even odyssey properly, as long as you select the correct settings. Cant do gel. And if this mystery factor works as intended:

Adaptive battery management:
The absorption time is short (minimum 30 minutes) if the
battery was (nearly) fully charged and increases to 8 hours
in case of a deeply discharged battery.


But, how can it know? For eg how does it know the difference between a 50Ah battery discharged by 20Ah and a 100Ah discharged by the same? :fencing Dont trust that bit! Unless you tell it the battery capacity. I would time it a couple of times to be sure.

Its correct to have a much shorter CV stage (like an hour if the battery only needs a top up) But it needs 1000thC termination or 8 hours CV soak whichever is sooner, for wheelchair cyclic use, anything more than say 25 percent discharge.

For some reason, odyssey say you get better life in cyclic use with higher charge rates. So it spends less time at CC and longer at CV 14.7V during charge and ideally 8 hours. If possible 40% of battery capacity (C10 rate.) charge rate. So they want us to charge at 26A or more for best service life on the 68Ah Odyssey.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2017, 19:02

http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Produc ... Lab-8_2595

This, is what you need... 15% off at the moment.
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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby tutatu » 23 Dec 2017, 19:57

well, then I'll order this charger

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Re: Chilwee batteries

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2017, 20:21

In needs a power supply too. And download and read the manual...

And order a FUM3 PC USB ADAPTER and a couple of their 36 inch balance cables at the same time because otherwise shipping is too expensive when you realise you need them.

And some of these, others melt and can short against each other! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10Stk-Banane ... Swnx5Z5HRe
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