Low force joystick

[bgmen]

I have little strength and restricted movement in my arms. I use pilot + joystick, but physically little hard for me. Can i modification my the standard joystick?

[LROBBINS]

On most joysticks centering is done by having an eccentric slide up and down against a compression spring and it is usually possible to replace that spring with a lighter one. If you do that, however, you may want to increase deadband as centering will be less precise.

[bgmen]

How replace spring?

you may want to increase deadband as centering will be less precise

i don't understand?

[LROBBINS]

To get to the spring you (usually) have to remove the four screws that hold the bezel and rubber boot to the joystick, and often the joystick to the pod. Then, slip off the boot and you'll see the spring.

Deadband is set in programming. I sets a small circle around the center that give 0 throttle and 0 turn so that the stick doesn't have to be precisely centered in order to stop moving. A value like 5% or 10% is usually quite sufficient, but you do need a programmer to set it.

[bgmen]

I have programming software for pilot +. What setting i must change?

[Burgerman]

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis. ... D00002.png

Part 38. I dont think you can change deadband in that joystick. But you probably dont need to.

[wheeliechair]

You can also try the joystick throw setting. It controls how far you have to push the joystick for full power. Stock setting is 100 but say try putting on 50 and you will only have to push the joystick half way forward for full power.There is a joystick throw setting for all four directions.

[bgmen]

i will try the joystick throw setting.

[snaker]

i will try the joystick throw setting.

The stick on the joystick is already very sensitive and low force. Maybe you need to re-locate the joystick pod to a position that best suits your hand/arm. I am a quadriplegic too. To drive the chair, I have to lean my elbow on the backrest. The stick is usually too far, we always have to do some small modification on the armrest to move the pod closer. I also tried the joystick throw setting. Its default value is 100%, if you set it to a value less than 100% you can drive easier at max speed in case driving continuously in long time. Because you do not need to hold or push the stick strongly. But adjust it slightly, 50% is too much. E.g I cannot drive properly if it is less than 80%, I actually set it to 95%.

[expresso]

I actually started to notice this with me also - since being able to ride what seems like forever - very far with the lithium - means i am also holding the JS all the time forward - i also notice a difference - getting harder to do that for long periods without feeling the pain or overusing your hand arm etc,

JS position is one thing i notice they never are where you can use them with ease - Manufacturer and vendors dont seem to care much - unless you bring it up and force them to make changes - they will do the basic adjustments and thats it - most times its not enough -

all my chairs the JS was never level to the arm pad - too far out to the side - always too low - on my Rnet - i had to build it up myself off the swing away bracket to level it -

new chair if i get it - bounder - when i demoed it - i was surprised that having that larger than norm box actually helped - i can sit my wrist on it - and there stick is very light - looks like a lollipop - i will be changing it

it wasnt so much a issue when i wasnt going too far - because of lead - now i am free to ride far and another concerns come to play - cant win - have to adapt

[Burgerman]

I am going to make a RC type interface that works with a nice hat for you guys!



So you can both look smart and go where you want by thought. Might not be very accurate!

[greybeard]

Could you give us a connection to the forum too. That way the slower of us to understand you tech wizards could just plug in and have your knowledge squirted directly into the correct parts of our brains. Seems like it would be a win win for all of us.

[Burgerman]

Sounds simple. Give me 15 mins...

[bgmen]

I will try it the joystick throw setting in small steps. Maybe i will relocate the joystick position.

[ex-Gooserider]

Wouldn't it be better in tin-foil????

ex-Gooserider

I am going to make a RC type interface that works with a nice hat for you guys!



So you can both look smart and go where you want by thought. Might not be very accurate!

[Burgerman]

I think tinfoil is a screen. We are trying to read em (brain)waves. So no.

[Scout]

I actually started to notice this with me also - since being able to ride what seems like forever - very far with the lithium - means i am also holding the JS all the time forward - i also notice a difference - getting harder to do that for long periods without feeling the pain or overusing your hand arm etc,

I'll ask the question I ask of "customers" in other industries: what would the IDEAL user interface be (within reason) -- and why?

I.e., I suspect you aren't complaining about the position your hands/fingers take/maintain but, rather, the fact that they are "under tension" while in that position. If "something" could sense the position of your finger without applying a resistive force to it, would that be sufficient? Or, do you want to be able to take your hand off the armrest (e.g., let it rest in your lap)? Or...?

[Smark67]

Maybe consider one of these, only need 50g of force: http://www.mo-vis.com/en/products/mo-vi ... i-joystick

[Burgerman]

MUCH of this battle is placing the joystick and housing in the CORRECT place for natural user comfort and control. Almost every powerchair I ever saw has this completely wrong. In line with the arm rest is way too far outboard. And too far ahead of you is uncomfortable. An most are too low to "cup" the casing properly.

So as usual you must do some work/fabrication to get this correct.

[Scout]

MUCH of this battle is placing the joystick and housing in the CORRECT place for natural user comfort and control.

I would think that abandoning previous conventions would afford more variety in the choices and associated levels of comfort.

E.g., the two most heavily (non computer) interfaces that I use are located mid thigh (by my dominant hand) and on the opposite shoulder. The former allows me to comfortably interface with it while seated while the latter works while standing (i.e., draw dominant arm across chest for access - while walking, etc. which would make the thigh impractical).

[There's a notable difference between "event-driven" interfaces (like keystrokes on a keyboard) and "state driven" (like a joystick, steering wheel, gas pedal, etc.]

[bgmen]

I will try the joystick modification. Maybe good idea is mini joystick.

[Smark67]

Would appreciate photos of the different places people have their joysticks placed (for driving the chair obviously, not for other weird reasons)…

[Burgerman]

[Scout]

I'd be curious as to the range of different interface types and their relative frequencies. E.g., I'd imagine joysticks to be the most common (assuming the driver maintains the use of one or more hands -- discounting folks needing head activated switches, SnP's, etc.)

If this is the case, then it seems to implicitly claim the joystick is the "right" interface for the job -- though that hardly seems likely given the loading it places on the hand/arm/shoulder.

I'd have thought a smaller device that fit in your hand (so it goes wherever your hand/arm/shoulder is most comfortable) would be less tiring -- something akin to a ring mouse...

[rlnguy]

With modern control systems, you can use almost any kind of input device, analog, or digital.
As to position, I've mounted joysticks to allow use by elbow, knee, foot, head, amputee stub, just about any moving body part, that has good, reliable control.
I found, especially with kids, directly in front of them often works well.
I think it would be more common with adults, except we usually have "stuff" on our laps.
One problem with midline mounting is the need to move it for transfers, and personal cares, then get it back in the exact same place, repeatedly.
In my experience, it is difficult to control a joystick that isn't fastened in one place, regardless of where it is mounted.

[Scout]

With modern control systems, you can use almost any kind of input device, analog, or digital.

Exactly! So, why has "joystick" settled out as the "default" interface device? It's just, effectively, a "pointing device" and there are lots of other approaches that could provide the same sort of "input" (controlled by hand) without the inherent restraints that come with a "stick" -- that is designed to forcefully "return to center". E.g., any "controller" can be designed to sense when your hand has been pulled away and interpret that as "stop" (how quickly/forcefully can be debated). So, why have to fight a spring when there are other ways to convey that result to the mechanism being controlled?

As to position, I've mounted joysticks to allow use by elbow, knee, foot, head, amputee stub, just about any moving body part, that has good, reliable control.

I have an overly large diameter (think: bowling ball), "foot operated" trackball mounted beneath my workstation that I use for fine positioning (i.e., hand-mouse does rapid/gross positioning and feet get me to the desired "pixel").

I found, especially with kids, directly in front of them often works well.
I think it would be more common with adults, except we usually have "stuff" on our laps.
One problem with midline mounting is the need to move it for transfers, and personal cares, then get it back in the exact same place, repeatedly.
In my experience, it is difficult to control a joystick that isn't fastened in one place, regardless of where it is mounted.

But that "fastening" is just some way of securing the device with respect to your "operating digits" (hand/fingers). Something like a ring mouse effectively "fastens" the device to your finger/hand so it can just as easily/intuitively be moved (e.g., out of your lap!) when "in the way".

It just seems, to an observer with no skin in the game, like it was the first "reasonable" idea that came along and hasn't been questioned, since (again, with the caveat that it applies only to folks who can use hands as operators). Sort of like the original (corded) "telephone handsets" that we lived with for decades before someone decided that it didn't have to be such a crude/squar-ish shape!