Personal Wheelchair Budgets

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Jun 2019, 11:16

A tablet is no good!!! You need HARD COPIES PRINTED OUT!!!! :argument And several copies of it.

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jun 2019, 12:29

I think the problem here is much like parliment, and goverment officials, MPs.

We have had 3 years of housewives and university graduates, or people that have never run a business or even held a job trying to 'negotiate' with the EU. But they dont have a clue how to do that or they would not be arguing in public or fore-arming the opposition with the "we wont leave without a deal" or handing them 40 billion BEFORE we organise a trade deal etc. Totally clueless morons. They are as green as a 7 year old. Its embarassing.

I and a few others here do know how to get a good deal. Including with the WCS. Because we are used to doing business deals with profit in mind, buying goods at the BEST price. And with big orders, or dealing with taxmen, etc. Those that dont have this sort of background dont have these skills. And are led by the authorities and told what they will get and seem to accept this without question.

For E.G. I ended up with a payment method for powerchairs that previously didnt even exist. And recently got a brand new car delivered with 17.5% discount for my neibour. And 2 chairs, from different manufacturers with 25 and 30% discount respectively and zero vat. Its all about attitude. Freindly, but persuasive, and knowing how these things work between businesses, and the way to do that varies.

With wheelchair services you must make them aware WELL BEFORE they turn up, by sending 3 or 4 cloned letters to various heads of departments informing them of your personal assessement, and quite firmly of their remit and responsibilities. And outline the direct payments flexibility, what it allows and why it exists if thats the system you wish to use. They need to be aware of, and have time to study and absorb your letter/assessement BEFORE they turn up to attempt to contradict you. Make it THEIR problem, not yours.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Irving » 21 Jun 2019, 07:19

terry2 wrote:
Burgerman wrote:
I can use that as a template :D


Only if the same things apply to you. But the idea was to show the sort of info I give them. Then they send some expert to assess me which is a laugh. Because I have forgotten more about chairs than they know, and I definitely know more about my needs, and so it basically a case of either agreeing with me or trying to explain why I am wrong. Which they dont usually even bother to try. So, ticks a few boxes and then the wait for the wheels to grind till its bank day...

Then spend it how you want on what you need. Maybe 2 used chairs. Maybe a totally different chair. Maybe one you build.



Understood.

Just had a phone call.
I am on the waiting list which is 6 weeks long.

They said they will come to my home to see if I need a chair, and that my place is suitable for one.

I do find that silly as I already have a chair. My doors have been widened and I have a ramp.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 21 Jun 2019, 09:18

Irving. No post for 2 years. And now a copy/paste quote from above but no input from you. I am confused. Are you having difficulty adding text?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 30 Jun 2019, 07:40

My right motor is making a clicking sound again. Sounds like the gear box.

So I have no choice but to call wheel chair services on Monday.
I wonder if they will bump me up the list?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jun 2019, 08:35

hopefully.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 01 Jul 2019, 15:32

Burgerman wrote:hopefully.



A man and lady is coming next Tuesday.

I asked if they wanted anything from me I.E what chair ect.
And they said no. This visit is to see if a wheel chair will be ok to use here?

They know I already have a power chair!

But I did ask them to bring there remit.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 01 Jul 2019, 17:02

I see many problems with the basic 2 pole 4mph small battery no lights chair they "assess" you need. You really should have donr things the other was around as suggested.

A man and lady is coming next Tuesday.

I asked if they wanted anything from me I.E what chair ect.
And they said no. This visit is to see if a wheel chair will be ok to use here?


You fail to understand. They are not comming to see if you can, they are comming to find any reason possible NOT to allow you to have a chair.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 01 Jul 2019, 21:40

Burgerman wrote:I see many problems with the basic 2 pole 4mph small battery no lights chair they "assess" you need. You really should have donr things the other was around as suggested.

A man and lady is coming next Tuesday.

I asked if they wanted anything from me I.E what chair ect.
And they said no. This visit is to see if a wheel chair will be ok to use here?


You fail to understand. They are not comming to see if you can, they are comming to find any reason possible NOT to allow you to have a chair.



I have 3 A4 pieces of paper filled out like what you had. Had it copied 3 times.
They are bringing their Remit(like you said)

I will read this out to them when they get here, and give it to them.
They said they don't want anything from me. But I am ready.

Maybe my council works different from yours?
As it's them who are giving me a chair under the NHS.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 01 Jul 2019, 21:53

Do they already have your assessement for a week to absorb?

The council dont have much to do with it its the WCS that supply the chair or money.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 02 Jul 2019, 06:48

Burgerman wrote:Do they already have your assessement for a week to absorb?

The council dont have much to do with it its the WCS that supply the chair or money.



I asked for there address(they just moved\over the phone) and they said they don't want anything off me at this stage.

I will find out soon enough how this council do things.

https://solihull.mylifeportal.co.uk/betterlivingcentre
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby foghornleghorn » 02 Jul 2019, 08:35

My first wheelchair services powerchair came about by being referred to WCS by my consultant at the hospital. They weren't given a choice whether I needed one or not.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jul 2019, 09:18

I asked for there address(they just moved\over the phone) and they said they don't want anything off me at this stage.


Of course they dont. What does that have to do with it? You are being led. If you want a good result it must be the other way around THEY must be the ones under pressure to deliver what you assessed yourself. And they must be the ones on the defensive. Once you let them assess you for a spectra plus or whatever then they have made it your problem to try and argue for something suitable... Your assessement should rule out all the things the spectre and its ilk have. And explain clearly why.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 02 Jul 2019, 14:55

WCS have nothing to do with councils. They don’t have money, they assess your needs and the CCG provide the finance that is used to purchase the chair. That isn’t entirely accurate, my local WCS has their power wheelchair budgets controlled by RREMS in a different CCG area. They seem to want to make it as complicated as possible so you never know how to complain or who is responsible.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jul 2019, 02:58

As above.

Thei WCS whatever roof they are under, are there to assess you, and then provide a chair through various means. And to do so as cheaply as possible. The 2nd bit appears to be the most important bit. They will attempt to spot any number of reasons you either dont need or or cannot safely use a powerchair. After that they will assess you for the cheapest possible most basic solution. Your job is to get in first. And whip their feet from under them. So that they already have an assessement to work to and consider. And leave them nowhere to go. You must be very descriptive of your exact needs, and explain why for e.g. you need a lift, or power footrests. Or tilt. And explain why you need the biggest battery possible, or why a weedy 2 pole will not work for you. Leave THEM on the back foot. Otherwise you will be listening to the smiling "helpful" ladies, as they offer you a powered deckchair at best. And yes, the council havenothing to do with it other than possible providing a property or adress.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 10 Jul 2019, 06:13

So the 2 of them came in a van :)

The lady was a very nice person and was in charge.
The guy was a pain in the ass to talk to. He kept on about health and safety blah blah blah :fencing
So I stopped talking to him.

The lady walked about my place and pointed out that the hall way is to small to turn a chair(which is true)
She measured me up(the best bit czy ) and will let me know in a few weeks.

The reason it will take longer is that she is going to speak to a commissioner(who ever that is) and see if I can have a 6-8 mph chair.

I gave her the 3 A4 paper with details on it. She read them and asked me about the Meyra Optimus 2 and took down all details about it :clap:
We spent a good 30 mins talking about what I need and want.

So all in all. It was ok. But I will see what happens in a few weeks.
If they say NO. Then I will have to find a place that can do me a Meyra Optimus 2 on the knock.

Thanks for all the advice guys. It did come in use.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jul 2019, 11:11

You have failed. They came, they found as many reasons to not provide a chair as possible, or a budget. Including your hallway, and the fact that you wanted to use it outdoors at 6mph or greater. Shot in foot. YOU allowed THEM to assess you :cussing
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 10 Jul 2019, 12:11

Burgerman wrote:You have failed. They came, they found as many reasons to not provide a chair as possible, or a budget. Including your hallway, and the fact that you wanted to use it outdoors at 6mph or greater. Shot in foot. YOU allowed THEM to assess you :cussing



They knew what kind of bungalow I was in because they are all the same council places around here.
And they went to the guy 3 doors down last OCT.

There was also a council guy here. Who said he could move the radiator to help get the chair past that part of my place.
I can't get it past that part of my place.

And as for the faster chair. I told her I don't use buses, I'm not allowed to drive a car or van.
What I really need is an out door chair. Then she asked me what one and how much.
She said the chair I want is cheaper than the chairs they supply.

I would be allowed a 4 mph. But around here we haven't got the Personal Wheelchair Budget setup here as yet.
Yes I have called the local gov officer and he confirmed it.
But they maybe getting the Personal Wheelchair Budget up and running next year.

What ever they do give me. I will put towards a off road chair :)
Lets wait and see.....
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 10 Jul 2019, 13:56

Commissioners are the people responsible for the budget, they agree the cost of the chair.They wouldn't usually get involved in deciding the chair spec, WCS should have guidelines and just present a case for the wheelchair plus modifications for your specific needs. You might be lucky and she adds a faster speed in what gets presented to the commissioners.

The problem with prices is that the CCG buy from specific suppliers they do deals with so chairs from certain brands are cheaper, you can't compare list prices. My CCG only want to use 2 companies Invacare and Quickie, they won't consider anything else. Yours might be different but it is unlikely. I'm due a reassessment and have already looked at the Quickie range and know what model would work, listed the extras and removed things they would add in. If I can keep the cost reasonable I might get it. Did you ask about their preferred brand? See what they want to supply and whether there is anything suitable.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jul 2019, 15:32

I would be allowed a 4 mph. But around here we haven't got the Personal Wheelchair Budget setup here as yet.
Yes I have called the local gov officer and he confirmed it.
But they maybe getting the Personal Wheelchair Budget up and running next year.


It isnt their choice. The gov made the rules and the guyi n charge on the NHS, the big potato in charge of EVERYTHING, simon stevens, said make it so...
And gave specific dates when it WOULD LEGALLY BE IMPLEMENTED.

Its YOUR choice, your RIGHT, and the fact that are several years behind is not your problem,it is theirs. You MUST take charge of your life, and dealings with these idiots.

Tell them that you demand a wheelchair budget in line with the rest of the country andsimon stevens orders. If they ignore you go higher. Much higher!

READ.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/

In May 2016, Simon Stevens announced that NHS England would be developing a personal health budgets model for the provision of wheelchairs.
Since April 2017, all clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England have been expected to start developing local personal wheelchair budget offers to replace the current wheelchair voucher system.

The Department of Health and Social Care announced in February 2019 that the legal right to a personal health budget is being extended to people who access wheelchair services whose posture and mobility needs impact their wider health and social care needs

THAT MEANS YOU!!!

They knew what kind of bungalow I was in because they are all the same council places around here.
And they went to the guy 3 doors down last OCT.

It does not MATTER what type of bungalow you live in, if theradiator is moved etc, Thats not their business. You might only want it for office work, or to use in your sons property. Tell them to to keep their noseout of your property. Those are reasons that they are searching for to give them excuses to NOT supply a chair. And do not mention that the primary need is outdoors!!! They will say you dont need it indoors (their assessement remit)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 10 Jul 2019, 17:14

I've just hit my WCS to say if it is my legal right it is their legal obligation. Got the we haven't implemented it yet because of some difficulties, I said that I wasn't bothered about their incompetence that was their problem not mine. I'm now on the list for reassessment and explained that I would be providing my own assessment. I've checked Quickie range and know that there is a model for me which they can supply getting their discount no argument on how much cash they would give which is the reason for their difficulties. If you understand how they work and provide a solution that doesn't involve too much extra cost you've got a better chance of getting a chair that fits your needs not what they try and palm you off with.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 10 Jul 2019, 17:25

Have a guess how much harder this was in 2008 when no such system even existed. You will have some idea quite how many heads got banged together maybe. At least back then, they *did* eventually get why it was the right answer. WCS hated the idea, but were TOLD clearly by the health department that it would be happening. The 'assessement' was highly comedic! I took the piss out of their questions, and explained clearly what was wrong with them. And their offered solutions were relentlessely rideculed in front of their big bosses and the head of NHS and the health departments personal secretary at my house and a big meeting in the local hospital. Limos, suits everywhere. One of my most amusing days. To their credit, the suits offered me a pilot scheme of 1 that would later be expanded to the country. WCS do not like change. They all looked like they had bitten a lemon.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 11 Jul 2019, 10:36

I've suggested that they use me as a pilot scheme for self assessment and pricing/finance which seems to be what they will now do. It is a lot easier if we can agree on a Quickie chair and I let them provide it. It is one of the options under PHB so at least they would be partially complying with their legal obligation. That is the important bit to push, it is not their choice not to provide PHB they are legally obligated to, no excuses for not doing it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 11 Jul 2019, 10:53

Correct. But they WILL try to wriggle out of doing a budget, even though they have actually no legalchoice. Just as they did to Terry2 because he is too afraid to be pro active in pushing his RIGHTS because he actually listens to the "nice ladies"...

He still hasnt understood that its a battle. You wanting a suitable chair, and a powerchair budget that you have a RIGHT to, against the "nice" helpful ladies, whos main job is to wriggle out of anything that will cost them money.

I got that 10 years or so back, and caused the powerchair budgets to exist in the first place. Because their other system wasnt fit for purpose and I showed them so. I did much better, with a smaller budget, on y own with a buying power of 1 end user. I made them look rediculous in front of the health department, and the NHS bosses, and the heads of administration. Hence the new budget, and assessements that are supposed to free the user to do their own best thing. That suits their needs, wants and skills. And not tying you to an nhs approved 4mph barely motorised deck chair.

DO NOT let them dictate the "rules" as they make all that up on the spot through both not wanting change, and ignorance. DO NOT let them tell you ANYTHING. You must assess yourself, and tell THEM!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 11 Jul 2019, 19:11

i've suggested that they use me as a pilot scheme for self assessment and pricing/finance which seems to be what they will now do. It is a lot easier if we can agree on a Quickie chair and I let them provide it.


Isnt that already what I am doing for a decade?
And the ASSESEMENT for the value of the budget can be based on whatever chair fits your clinical, holistic and personal preferences, Quickie or otherwise as its not relevant. That they WOULD supply, plus a maintainance, cushion, backrest etc as agreed figure. But how you decide to spend that, say on 10 ebay used chairs, one off road chair, or half the price towards some dream chair like an iBOT or something, is all up to you. And if you maintain your fleet of chairs well you may not use that budget until the next one doubles it... YOUR CHOICE!

If you let them just supply a chair, all your options are gone, and its not a powerchair budget its just what chair they supply.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 12 Jul 2019, 11:54

If I get a chair to my spec and the needs that I have assessed it doesn't matter who supplies itt, all that matters is the amount I have to contribute. If you want money you will only get what they will pay plus servicing, if they supply you could get the chair you want fully paid for by them. PWB guidelines have this as one of the options. Yes, you will be limited to the brands they work with but the likes of Quickie have probably got a suitable model that can be customised to your spec.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jul 2019, 16:46

If I get a chair to my spec and the needs that I have assessed it doesn't matter who supplies itt, all that matters is the amount I have to contribute. If you want money you will only get what they will pay plus servicing, if they supply you could get the chair you want fully paid for by them. PWB guidelines have this as one of the options. Yes, you will be limited to the brands they work with but the likes of Quickie have probably got a suitable model that can be customised to your spec.


But that is very limiting.
The amount they give me doesent cover the retail cost to you. But its pretty simple to get a good discount. The advantage is that you are still using the chair you buy, and get another budget. Every 3 years. That means you can either wait and keep using the first chair, and then in another three years you have double the budget. That will buy you the original chair at full retail, and plenty left over in your account to add to the following budget. Meanwhile you now have 2 chairs... One can be indoor for e.g. the other for your mountains and things.Thats the whole point of USER CHOICE. Or you can buy a 3rd chair that is something entirely different, such as the sub 500 pound chair that irving just bought. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8998 Or 5 or 6 of them :clap
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 14 Jul 2019, 18:24

It is limiting but you will still own the chair and can go back every 3 years. I'll be looking for a back up chair to replace the crap Salsa, already got my all purpose chair sorted and my off road chair both courtesy of Access to Work. For me that easy option of letting them supply works because I have other ways to get my specialist chairs, in the future that might change so I would go down the same route as you.Or I could combine PWB with Access to Work funding if I was stupid enough to want an over priced Permobil which would be difficult to get a discount on :)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jul 2019, 19:57

Theres a bunch of reasons not to buy permobil, even before we look at the cost.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby iainsherriff » 15 Jul 2019, 11:19

Matt got his first powerchair (Salsa mini) just before xmas. Never had the promised follow up from WCS. He has been having swollen leg/feet issues for a few months (stockings sort of controlling it) and I have been trying to get a WCS person out to review his chair (electric legs and lift for more position changes). After another two weeks with no call back I phoned again today to be told
"we have no home appointments slots until end of August"
"we have no appointments here in the near future"

I replied with
" He has been in hospital for the last 10 days with issues related to his positioning and you need to do something"

response was
"well, you need to get him here with the chair but we have no transport"

SO (having been following this thread :) ) I said
" well, I need you to arrange for a PWB for Matt and take this chair away"

Guess what answer I got ...............................

"oh, we don't do that here"

Expecting a call back (yer, right banghead ) from the Manager after I quoted you : "that is YOUR problem NOT Matt's problem"

I actually don't care HOW we get the right chair but I like a good fight with authorities .........................
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