Personal Wheelchair Budgets

[Burgerman]

This is the standard chair they provide?
Group24, rear drive invacare. If it wasnt for the no lights, 4mph motors not too bad. Other than the usual godawful swingaway footrests that I cannot transfer past onto my bed, and as usual no centre footplate. And you need to saw off the stupid push handles on day 1 so they dont hook on everything and gouge lumps out of walls or break mirrors etc.

And another invacare chair with the non programmable, because no OEM access possible LiNX controller. So its ruled out as a non starter immediately!
If it wasnt LiNX and had a centre footplate and was a 120A 4 pole 6mph motor option, with lights, then it would be pretty good as an NHS chair.

And its rear drive again, so likely not available in the USA either.

[steves1977uk]

Yes I realised that BM, but as we know the chair that they would provide would not be suitable.

Here's a copy of Norwich WCS "interpreted" PWB...

Steve

[Burgerman]

Their interpretation is bollox.

Well the TITLE says it all: The PERSONAL BUDGET VOUCHER SCHEME!

1. A personal budget is, well, a PERSONAL BUDGET. Personal being you. A budget being money. NOT a voucher!!!
They describe the voucher scheme perfectly... That isnt a personal budget though is it. Tell them that a voucher is no good ot what was intended. And not giving the flexibility you need and described on the NHS CHOICES website.

2. The disagrement between what they provide, and if it fits your clinical AND holistic joined up lifestyle etc needs (as described in the personal budget) is between you and them. You should do a detailed personal assessement point by point and show why their chair doesent work. And why the one you are proposing does. And explain that VERY CLEARLY and send it in by recorded delivery. And explain that this is the chair you are buying right now, because you dont have a choice and will in needed sue them for the money, and damages as advised by your soliciter.. Because while they can make you wait years you do not have that option and they well know it. And that theres no reason they could not deal with this to completion is 7 days.

3. One of the options is a direct payment. Insist that they give you that and nothing else is acceptable under the circumstances, and show why that givey you a better outcome. Thy will tell you its not ROUTINELY available. Tell tham you are not interested in their internal problems. Or routines. It is available if you kick hard enough. Ask me how I know. They have no idea what amount I spend, on what, when, from who, or anything else. It my business. The FIGURE is based on what they would pay. Based on not their assessement, but on mine and theres, including any important holistic needs, that we agree on. And on what this "hypothetical" chair would cost them. That chair THEY would have paid for. Plus any fancy backs, positioning, cushions, custom needs, maintainance. Since we know this figure doesent cover what it really costs me and I go through chairs fast, we agreed 3 years not 5.

And dont argue with idiots, they just bring you down to their level. (I tell myself this every time I respond to socialist nonsense.) Go ABOVE them.

[steves1977uk]

I had to laugh at that e-mail, WCS based it on a discontinued Invacare Bora Modulite chair which costs £2750 RRP (A 40% discount would be £1100 off, so they pay £1650 for it). The Caps 2 seat would be around £1500-odd, plus £300 for 3 years maintenance after the first 2 years.

Steve

[duke1]

I had to laugh at that e-mail, WCS based it on a discontinued Invacare Bora Modulite chair which costs £2750 RRP (A 40% discount would be £1100 off, so they pay £1650 for it). The Caps 2 seat would be around £1500-odd, plus £300 for 3 years maintenance after the first 2 years.

Steve

same here, but atleast until p.h.e give the wcs clear guidelines on pwb direct payments i think having got them to allow purchase of used chair which is a first for the area was a good start.
but to be honest i rather begrudge also having to waste the rest of the pwb on being forced to buy extended warranty for 4 years at £500, money i could have used for maintaining all 4 chairs for tyres and tubes etc,
but little do wcs know they think this will have gotten rid of me for 5 years, but next trick is our o.t. says i should be assessed for a chair and go for my own pwb but this time as theres no rush and i have the puma 40 i use all the time outdoors.
and have just finished a rebuild using a £50 ebay purchase puma 40 for parts i have replaced all the damaged and bent bits and happy i even got a new seat with better padding and stops tina getting thrown about so much meaning i can fight as long as it takes to make them do pwb and direct payment,poor vlad thought he had seen the last of me
im just hoping tinas chair comes before christmas but doubt it some how,atleast she is comfy now though in the cheap pride tilt/recline etc fusion so a bit happier,when you getting your new dietz chair?peace

[steves1977uk]

I will be getting my new Dietz chair in the new year Duke, since WCS take an age to sort anything out. I'm taking what they have offered me and will be fighting them to pay more towards it after I have the chair delivered and set up by rover. WCS haven't heard the last from me and Melissa (my PA).

Steve

[Burgerman]

same here, but atleast until p.h.e give the wcs clear guidelines on pwb direct payments i think having got them to allow purchase of used chair which is a first for the area was a good start.

Yes.
Well dont... get a backhander.

[Burgerman]

Well heres another to annoy segreen.

I said that I would get the first part as a BUDGET - money - that we agreed on 3 yearly, £5446.87 paid in in a couple of weeks.
And that another approx 1k that they had failed to get right from my prescription was under discussion (it is) and will likely be paid in later once agreed. (it will.)

Heres the first part. Paid in already by NLINKS NHS GOOL as agreed by WCS and some CCG Panel. For the non believers.
This is NOT a voucher.
This is NOT for any specific dealer.
This is NOT for any specific chair.
This is NOT only for a NEW chair.
This is NOT limited to 4mph/NO LIGHTS!
This is £££ for ME to decide what I wish to do for my own best interest for my own mobility in my own time.
NHS CHOICES right? USED, NEW, DIY BUILD, REPAIRS or REBUILD, MAINTAIN FLEET, BACKUP CHAIR, or ANYTHING ELSE. NO insistance on any "warranty".

We agreed this as a DIRECT PAYMENT option a long time ago, you know that thing that is "not ROUTINELY available" on the list. Who says its got to be routine!!!

You need to make a proper firm detailed case to them, that shows that you get a better outcome doing it your way, and if you are heavy on chairs, and can prove that, it can be 3 yearly. As mine is. Its all about putting the right info to them, and not allowing them any escape route. Dont get angry. Ignore and dismiss their made up rules. Use logic. Facts. And show your EVIDENCE. And dont allow them to give you any crap. Politely but firmly. This is what IS possible if you are insistent.

[Burgerman]

The above SHOULD be possible for anyone if you can identify that in YOUR CASE a direct payment will give a better outcome for reasons you must tell them. And this should have been possible from around 2015 onwards. That was was what was intended all along. And once all the various departments have been woken up, kicked into shape it will be.

Right now it seems that they are very reluctant to let go of their old ways. They are still sdministering this like its the voucher scheme by a different name. That means it will never get going until enough people like me insist and show them they are wrong! And trust me it isnt (wasnt) easy. It still isnt. It took a lot more letters, calls and energy to do this all over again this year. But i will listen to their ideas if they want. Then we do it my way.

[duke1]

The above SHOULD be possible for anyone if you can identify that in YOUR CASE a direct payment will give a better outcome for reasons you must tell them. And this should have been possible from around 2015 onwards. That was was what was intended all along. And once all the various departments have been woken up, kicked into shape it will be.

Right now it seems that they are very reluctant to let go of their old ways. They are still sdministering this like its the voucher scheme by a different name. That means it will never get going until enough people like me insist and show them they are wrong! And trust me it isnt (wasnt) easy. It still isnt. It took a lot more letters, calls and energy to do this all over again this year. But i will listen to their ideas if they want. Then we do it my way.

hi bm the direct payment system has not yet been updated and im told until public health england do so there will be no such thing here as a direct payment,im guessing this will be carried over to most areas other than those like yours whom where involved with the pilot program of pwb as they have established rules and guidelines,other ccgs have yet to enact the pwb direct payment at all and await guidance from p.h.e.
i did ring solutions mobility today to find out they have had no contact at all from wcs and even the damn form i posted first class 2 weeks ago has failed to be delivered
so emailed photos of the pwb form this morning and hope they havent sold the approved chair before it gets paid for or we are back at square one again!
thank god i went out and did it myself,tina now has a nice comfy indoor chair with everything the nhs did not have. i fitted a nice centre footplate similar in style to the puma 40 centre but in miniature fits perfect and she is very happy with it,cost less than £400 total inc new lead bricks its just for indoors so being 4 mph is no problem,she has 3 other outdoor chairs to choose from
i shall continue to battle now no matter what and i never ever give up.
peace

[steves1977uk]

i did ring solutions mobility today to find out they have had no contact at all from wcs and even the damn form i posted first class 2 weeks ago has failed to be delivered

Same with Norwich WCS Duke, they haven't contacted rover yet AFAIK about the payment towards my new chair.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Thats because the WCS travel at the speed of socialism. If you lean on them daily it might get done in a year.

Whereas if you buy a thing in the private world, as I did in advance with my Q700R, its paid over the phone, delivered in 7 days complete with replacement centre footplate to my door. At the speed of capitalism. Because YOU are the paying customer. They want the money. You might go to a competitor.

[rover220]

i did ring solutions mobility today to find out they have had no contact at all from wcs and even the damn form i posted first class 2 weeks ago has failed to be delivered

Same with Norwich WCS Duke, they haven't contacted rover yet AFAIK about the payment towards my new chair.

Steve

Nope, still heard nothing.

[Burgerman]

Notice there that rover, private, replied in 4 mins, and you didnt even call him!

Contrast this with the responsiveness of the socIalist NHS. Who answer to nobody, dont have to compete, cannot be fired or lose paying customers. And are practically impossible to deal with at all. And work on geological timescales and treat you as a problem.

About time it was all privatised.

[segreen]

Burgerman wrote Well heres another to annoy segreen.

Why should I be annoyed John? I've said time and time again, good luck to everyone who gets anything. If it's available take it. ALL I say is YOUR the only one who gets the large amount you get and in cash and every 3-years. Good luck to you but don't lead everyone to think they're going to get the same because as everyone can testify on here they don't.

[Burgerman]

You did say you didnt believe me...
I never said everyone would. Just that if they identify their clinical needs and agree on those and it results in a 10 to 12k chair, they will pay about half of that. If it results in a 4k chair than you will only get 2k.

And importantly also identify how a personal budget as a direct payment improves the outcome, helps fit in with holistic needs, then its possible. Yes they will say thats not available. Thats what they told me all over again in 2015. And I know that others get similar because during the years that I was doing the pilot I was in touch with a bunch of them that also joined the pilot scheme. This forum represents a tiny minority of all powerchair users. And I still think that you could get similar to me. If you organised yourself correctly.

BOTH things are required.

Even if you were a first in your own area. What makes me any different? My local wheelchair services were in shock 2 budgets ago and had never heard of bugdets or me. Because as a pilot they were not even informed. It was like staring over. It just took a lot of work to kick em into line.

[terry2]

Hi everyone.

How long do you have to wait in between claims?

Because of this chinese virus, not many people working at my council.
Thanks

[ICEUK]

Terry it's all bollox, covid is just an excuse for the lazy gits.

[Burgerman]

Freedom day was a month ago. Theres absolutely no reason for anyone working from home or not working. Unless your councl is a socialist organisation as they all are. They dont care if they are productive. Or waste YOUR money. Why would they? They wont get fired if they produce nothing. Or if they are totally incompetant. They do not have to compete for your business to stay afloat. They literally couldnt give a shit as long as you keep paying their wages. Thats why socialism always fails. Everywhere.

Its why the NHS has a massive 20% of the entire UK earnings as funding. Yet there is now a SIX YEAR wait for operations, and people have basically given up trying which is the plan. To allow them to "cope". You cant get a dentist no matter how hard you try. And you cant get to see a doctor or get any treatment in any kind of sensible time frame. And even calling your doctor can be a day on the phone arranging when they will (and never do) call you back. The system just wears you down by design.


Its just the same as the local council, hoplessely inefficient and mostly incompetant and unresponsive. In spite of the NHS being the biggest employer in the world. Millions of people pushing paper and drinking coffee and going to "panels" so that nobody is ever responsible for any decision. Need a wheelchair or be stuck in bed? Dont expect an "assessement" inside a year or longer. And only if you keep pushing them and calling. Or nothing at all happens. All useless.

[Burgerman]

Why should I be annoyed John? I've said time and time again, good luck to everyone who gets anything. If it's available take it. ALL I say is YOUR the only one who gets the large amount you get and in cash and every 3-years. Good luck to you but don't lead everyone to think they're going to get the same because as everyone can testify on here they don't.

You would if you treat them as the couldnt care less socialists they are, and had my attitude. The point is that this should not be required by you or me. If you bang enough heads together you will get the same as I do.

[ICEUK]

I took a PWB , a few arguments here but it wasn't to bad. I got 6k for my salsa and a new PWB in 3 years plus cushion change at 18 months.

My Salsa is in far better condition now I am maintaining it, Example, castor tyres wear out when I change them I renew the bearings in the wheel everytime they are so cheap yet WCS would come out change tyres and then be back in 3 months to change them again as they had prematurely worn out as they reused bearings.

My castor tyres last about 12 months.

[Burgerman]

And yet everyone keeps on telling me I am "the only one". There will be another along in a minute.

Well I know otherwise. You just need to work out how to deal with the instutionalised socialists at WCS.

My Salsa is in far better condition now I am maintaining it,

And if you LOOK AFTER IT it will last you 6 years. And so you end up with 12k to spend on your next one. And keep the still good one. And this is on top of 60 per week mobility allowance! (over 10k every 3 years). So in reality you have 16k every 3 years.

[Burgerman]

And heres a third one on here alone. Other than myself.

anyhow i would say this is the best non modified powerchair i have found to date and am glad we fought the wcs for 2 years to get the pwb and choose the right chair for tinas needs and fits in the old volvo 850

All this only available to ME is nonsense. Its available to those that know how to argue their position properly. This will continue untill these PWB things become common. Right now, the huge monster that is the sosialist institutionalised NHS doesent like anything that makes it change direction. But they are wrong. You are right and have the right. In the same way I do. It just takes a little kicking in the right places.

[duke1]

And heres a third one on here alone. Other than myself.

anyhow i would say this is the best non modified powerchair i have found to date and am glad we fought the wcs for 2 years to get the pwb and choose the right chair for tinas needs and fits in the old volvo 850

All this only available to ME is nonsense. Its available to those that know how to argue their position properly. This will continue untill these PWB things become common. Right now, the huge monster that is the sosialist institutionalised NHS doesent like anything that makes it change direction. But they are wrong. You are right and have the right. In the same way I do. It just takes a little kicking in the right places.

hi bm and all just to say unlike bm we did not get direct payment but wcs paid the supplier and should pay for 5 yr extended warranty if you can not get direct payment which you simply will not get from some ccgs due to very poor regulation and each ccg singing from a different songbook and until phe clarify to all wcs what rules to follow the last thing they will do is part with direct payment.
at the end of the day even getting it the way we have is a long mile better than the utterly shite useless unsuitable thing the wcs gave tina.3 times and each returned and maybe 50 emails 10 letters to various fools in local government and my mp who for a tory was quite helpful and also emails to sir simon stevens personal secretary and even after all that it took 2 fecking years!
but it pays to be persistent and even annoying badgering and complaining to anyone who will listen,since ours went through i have set 3 other local chair users along the same path and our case sets a path for wcs to follow and maybe slowly get better at it and not take 2 years and 4 chairs before they do there bloody job,slackers all. but even slackers can be beaten into submission!

[ICEUK]

My WCS. Would not give me cash but that didn't bother me as I had already sourced my chair from dealer with a discount however WCS then said we can give you cash in 3 years to the value of a replacement chair if you want to continue using your exsisting chair.

[Burgerman]

Be sure to apply, and send a rec delivery letter a year at least before your expected 3 yearly date. It literally takes them a year... So 18 months to 2 years hit them again.

[Dan]

You know that out of the total budget for wheelchair services about 40% goes on staffing. I have a chair which they themselves have said is beyond repair but they have been unable to replace it in over a year.

[Burgerman]

Thats what they tell you.
They can if you "insist" a little harder.