Personal Wheelchair Budgets

[ICEUK]

Tell he wheelchair assesor that you are in pain when you self propel your chair and you can tdo it after a few minutes, You need a powered chair your shoulders will be completely fked in the end!

[Burgerman]

To be fair, there were armies of paraplegics coming out ofthe spinal cord injuries units in the 70s, 80s, 90s, that are now all lining up for shoulder operations and treatments on the cuff rotator whatever that is. After the manual chairs they were all brainwashed into believing were for them in the production line spinal units. All were repeatedyly told by doctors, physios, OTs that they didnt "need" powerchairs and that they were demeaning and you lost "self respect"... Those things were only for the teraplegics. Repeatedly. Till everyone accepts it as fact. That bit of conditioning stuck.

Most typical paraplegics even decades on, wont try or even think about a powerchair. How wrong they are. All you really lost was the freedom a powerchair gives. The added mobility that allows youto nip to the pub without arriving after you froze, got your hands cut up, or covered in dog crap, and looking like you ran a marathon! God forbid theres a hill or two. And the ability to sit in comfort, in a stable platform that allows you to carry a bowl of soup hrough a few doors, or to work on something. And the one thing they cling to is that they need the excercise. Butits the wrong type of excersize andit damages your shoulders.

So this alone is reason enough NOT to be using a manual. Of course if you can walk/stand things are less clear cut.

[biscuit]

Yes often I see ppl using a manual wheelchair and think don't they realise, life is hard enough when you can't walk without having occupied hands to self-propel as well!
My arms are too wussy to self propel and the OT knows it.
I'm reading the add-on battery pinned thread (thanks expresso!) and getting a glint in my eye about a small lithium pack for an indoor/outdoor Viennese with more robust wheels and controls and fewer miles of power. I need a glossary though... most threads are too technical for me, everything is new knowledge. I'll gradually collect acronyms etc. for creating a glossary thread this week -i don't think there is one already - and hope someone will translate them. Nothing is obvious, I just had to look up what awg means.

[Scooterman]

My arms are too wussy to self propel

My arms are too wussy too, and my elbows are shagged.

[Burgerman]

I'll gradually collect acronyms etc. for creating a glossary thread this week -i don't think there is one already - and hope someone will translate them. Nothing is obvious, I just had to look up what awg means.

I had to look up acronym. And glossary!

[CPguy]

Lets be fair, in my opinion, the only truly valid reasons (aside from medical necessity) for a self propelled manual wheelchair are transportation and the breakdown problem.

Transportation: If you travel by air, with taxis or with a car that is not your own, (friends and family, rental, etc.) manual wheelchairs are simpler to move and load.
Breakdown problem: a manual wheelchair can be pushed in emergency a powerchair not so much.

I as a spastic have both and I LOVE my powerchairs!

[Burgerman]

If you travel by air, with taxis or with a car that is not your own, (friends and family, rental, etc.) manual wheelchairs are simpler to move and load.

Cant even transfer into a manual chair now. The wheel is in my way. And so only true if you can walk a bit maybe.

[biscuit]

I had to look up acronym. And glossary!

[CPguy]

@ Burgerman: True, as I can walk about 30 m with 2 crutches. I am a cheater!

[ex-Gooserider]

Don't konow the UK system, but I'd assume there is an appeal process to fight the decision turning Scooterman down.... In the US it is often the case that you will get turned down at least once and need to fight through the appeals to get approved, but persistence will get you what you need.

I use both my power and manual chairs, and don't have any trouble transferring in and out of either, between them, or other stuff, though I sometimes need a slide board....

By choice I use the power chair, but if my van breaks down, and I have to be driven in other vehicles, it isn't possible to load the power chair, but is possible to load the manual.

I have friends / family that live in places that aren't workable with the power chair, but are with the manual, so I drive the van (in my power chair) to their place, and transfer to the manual to go inside and visit (one friend has a small apartment, I can get into her bathroom in the manual, but not in the power chair, etc...) Same deal with outdoor climbing where I need volunteers to get me and the chair to the start of the route - it isn't that bad for them to carry me in the manual, no way would they be able to do it in the power chair....

It is tight enough in our house that while I CAN get around in the power chair, it is usually easier in the manual, especially if I'm going to bed and the GF needs to move the chair with me not in it - MUCH easier in the manual...

So I have use cases for both, but the manual is definitely the second choice...

ex-Gooserider

[biscuit]

There's much knowledge to absorb on these pages...a glossary won't help with understanding. Now I know why nobody's done one already.

[segreen]

John

Is there anything written down that say's you can use the Personal Health Budget for building and refurbishing a chair? I've got an assessment next week and I'd like to quote something from an offical source just in case they insist it's only for buying chairs.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Well the leaflet here specifically says that I was not only ALLOWED to build my own chairs and that in fact this was the entire point of the budget. Created specifically for me to do exactly that!
I was the first, on this scheme created SPECIFICALLY for me initially so that I had the budget to allow me this freedom!

As such it gives the choice on how the money is BEST spent to you, the user. In my case to build my own powerchairs. I was sat in a BM2 heavily modified chair as we discussed this. Theres no doubt about the purpose of the money. To also allow me freedom to buy, my new Salsa, to MY spec, and to modify with seating position/wheels/tyres/programming/various mods/lithium/etc. As I see fit.

So once they start with that holier than thou bullshit, or safety nazi garbage, or responsibility excuses, whip a printed copy of the 2 pages below out. And explain to them that this was the entire POINT if the scheme right from its outset! And to get over themselves.

I might add that it says the pilot started 2018 on here. It did not! It started 7 years back, and I was the only one on it after a major uheaval and discussions with the health department (nigel lansley) and the NHS, and the local authority. After a couple of years there were 4 or five others.

So print these, and shoot them in their own foot with their own promotional leaflets

[segreen]

Thanks John. I'll let you know how I get on.

[Burgerman]

Before you go, write a detaled self assessement of your clinical needs and holistic daily lifestyle needs. They are supposed to take this into account.

They will assess you for a chair that THEY think fits your requirements, and base the budget around that, plus maintainance, plus a cushion. Mine are 3 yearly. They try to sliup that back to 5 yearly given the chance.

So your assessement needs to explain why 2 pole motors or a weedy controller, and 50ASh lead bricks or small wheels, or solid tyres etc doesent cut it.

For EG. Once in my chair for the day I cant transfer. So while they onluy allow for indoor use, you cannot swap to some outdoor chair when you go out to the pub/bank/hospital for assessements!/etc. Holistic means they must allow for your lifestyle. Thats a crash tested chair good enough for the real outdoor world as well as indoors. And that also means for eg tilt /recline / legs, centre footplate and any fancy back or cushion you need for pressure reduction. And lift... They probably wont cover. Unless you can find a watertight reason you must have it. Me? My bed, loo, van, and sofa are all different heights. I can manage without. But if you need to wash a vehicle, or reach that box high up in the garage, its essential. But they are tricky. They will ask why you dont use a lower shelf. So I show them my lathe, pillar drill, and other things that are all but impossible without.

Tubeless? Because I suffer spasm. Sometimes severely. Solid type tyres are hopeless and cause spasm. Tubed ones leave me with flkat tyres and I cant get out! So stranded at 2am... Etc.

Then see what they say. If they offer an inadequate amount, let them buy and supply the chair. Then tell them it doesent work which it wont! Endlessely.

[segreen]

Had my review today. Seemed to go quite well. Lets see how well they can argue my case. Cautiously optimistic (famous last words!).

Steve

[Burgerman]

Did you show what you built in the past and why? And show those leafelets?

I have a review wed. New staff... They dont know me yet.
I will review them very carefully!
I explained already that they better not send anyone that didnt properly understand powerchairs.
And that the review went both ways

They assured me a woman with 40 years powerchair assessement experience and training knew it all.
Should be hilarious. I already have a few test questions lined up!

About 6 EASY verbal qualifying questions, before I deem them suitably qualified to be assessing me at all.
Heres one:
What are the 5 or 6 main advantages of the larger sized tubeless tyres/rims I use on all of my chairs?
Heres another:
What are the 4 huge advatages of using lithium? And any disadvantages, and why use a larger capacity than lead?
The rest are similar.

I mean if she cant understand the basics what is the point of her?

[segreen]

John

I showed them the leaflets and explained that you were getting it for doing the same thing. Then I showed them a fistfull of invoices, facts and figures to demonstrate my case. Then after explaining to them about the advantages of self build etc and showing them my chair they seemed quite impressed or was it the dog they were impressed with! Just got to sit back and await their decision now.

Steve

[Burgerman]

I wonder if they really understood anything you told them though. They seldom do. Just nod and pretend while thinking you are a nut. Its why before we start I ask those sorts of questions. Because its all but garanteed that as soon as you get any more in depth than a seating tick box, on a form, they are just lost.

Seems they have found me an especially knowledgable one. I live in hope! Because you can explain your reasons and they "might" get it.

[foghornleghorn]

They assured me a woman with 40 years powerchair assessment experience and training knew it all.
Should be hilarious. I already have a few test questions lined up!

About 6 EASY verbal qualifying questions, before I deem them suitably qualified to be assessing me at all.
Heres one:
What are the 5 or 6 main advantages of the larger sized tubeless tyres/rims I use on all of my chairs?

I'm not sure I could name 6 advantages of your current tyres

You may be fine though - I always find the ones who have been doing something a long time are more lenient and it's easier to squash their taught ideas than the newly qualified who are full of whatever they have been told is correct and don't listen to a word you say.

[Burgerman]

I'm not sure I could name 6 advantages of your current tyres

The idea is for them to think and see if they are capable of basic physics. From top of my head...

1. My tyres look better!
2. Give a far greater level of comfort than solid (urethane/foam etc).
3. Run at lower pressures than skinny stock sized tubed tyres, to support the same weight and so give a smoother ride (less spasm for me!)
4. Lower surface pressure, less damage to carpets, (or my dogs tail)...
5. Greater floatation (on soft surfaces they dont sink as much in soft lawns like mine in winter!
6. Much longer lasting, as theres more rubber to wear out and better construction.
7. Lower rolling resistance compared to urethane/foam so better range.
8. Lower rolling resistance means lower average depth of discharge so batteries last longer $$££
9. Lower rolling resistance means lower average depth of discharge so batteries [color=#BF0000]charge faster[/color]!
10. Since they have twice the rubber and half the surface loading they cost less overall as they last a very long time.
11. Higher load ratings, and better build quality since they are highway rated means stronger carcase that isnt overloaded, and less likelyhood of puncture penetration too.
12. Puncture seal fluid works 100% garanteed in tubeless. And seldom works in tubes.
13. Lower rolling resistance than their solids means the chair steers better too! And wastes less amps...

If they get three I will be impressed!
Just gives me a basic idea about their thinking capability.

[foghornleghorn]

I wouldn't have led with aesthetics being the first reason if at all. Plus I go in a lot of places where I would feel like a bit of an arsehole leaving black streaks on the floor. Buildings are being forced to spend a lot of money on disabled access and it doesn't seem right to go in and make a mess.
My infilled tyres can make bad pavements feel like going down a set of stairs so would have said [1] smoother ride.
Is leaving your tail out to be squashed a German Shepherd thing? The only dogs tail I have ever run over is a German Shepherd!
I was thinking [2] the lack of tread on your tyres must be better for carpets than the standard 14" ones. My old indoor wheelchair had completely smooth tyres and did no carpet damage at all but my current one has the 12½x2¼ treaded solids and 9 months use is showing around the house already.
As an opposite to that, outdoors I wouldn't have seen the lack of tread on your tyres as an advantage. In the garden I would end up stuck in the hedge down the bottom unable to get uphill, and every time I go out anywhere I'm not 100% on a paved surface so would be lacking traction. Low rolling resistance is going to help the batteries but when you get stuck it doesn't matter if your battery is at 80% or 50% you are still fucked.
I would have thought the new tyres [3] last longer so save money as the wear rate on standard ones is pretty dreadful.

3 reasons and I've sort of run out. The main problem I think with everything is that each person has different requirements and so one persons advantage can be another persons problem.

[Burgerman]

I wouldn't have led with aesthetics being the first reason if at all.

One of the reasons I hate stock chairs is that they make you feel like an institutionalised victim. And since the whole point of the budget is to allow the USER to decide what is important to them, then its extremely important I explain this to them. Its oneof the reasons I prefer to modify or build instead of using their efforts! I always stress that I wouldnt be seen dead in one of their barely motorised bunch of badly thought out skinny grey tyred deck chairs built from oddly shaped brackets that stick out all over. So its EXTREMELY important that they get this. It matters.

A chair is with you and a part of you like your clothes. Its how people see you. Recognise you, across a road. In a business meeting, in a bank asking for a mortgage deal, they see you and try to figure out if you can pay. And when chatting up the barmaid. I make damned sure they get all this before moving on.

Plus I go in a lot of places where I would feel like a bit of an arsehole leaving black streaks on the floor. Buildings are being forced to spend a lot of money on disabled access and it doesn't seem right to go in and make a mess.

What makes you think that black tyres leave any marks? If summer or if dry they just dont. True they may do if wet. If its wet I know this, so just wouldnt drive on their carpets. But likewise if its wet I generally dont go places much as I get wet too! Theres literally no marks in my house, after 20 years.

My infilled tyres can make bad pavements feel like going down a set of stairs so would have said [1] smoother ride.
Is leaving your tail out to be squashed a German Shepherd thing? The only dogs tail I have ever run over is a German Shepherd

Dunno. They seem to like it!

I was thinking [2] the lack of tread on your tyres must be better for carpets than the standard 14" ones. My old indoor wheelchair had completely smooth tyres and did no carpet damage at all but my current one has the 12½x2¼ treaded solids and 9 months use is showing around the house already.

Its not just tread. But a bigger higher floatation tyre rides more lightly over the carpet. Think big fat balloon sand tyres, they would do zero carpet damage. Its about pressure. I mean this is a more extreme example https://www.marine-rescue.com/media/cat ... each_1.jpg

As an opposite to that, outdoors I wouldn't have seen the lack of tread on your tyres as an advantage. In the garden I would end up stuck in the hedge down the bottom unable to get uphill, and every time I go out anywhere I'm not 100% on a paved surface so would be lacking traction. Low rolling resistance is going to help the batteries but when you get stuck it doesn't matter if your battery is at 80% or 50% you are still fucked

.
Treaded tyres dont give better traction. Slicks work best on smooth pavement. Treaded tyres on normal vehicles are to clear water at speed. NOT to give traction. We dont have speed! And on mud then tread digs you a hole. And slips anyway. The secret for off road is BIG tyres and rediculously open tread so it doesent clog. Those are terrible indoors and on the street as they wear fast and they give a horid bobbly ride! See http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... mp-car.jpg
These are ok on mud/grass but crap everywhere else! So I use a chair with those on only in winter on flying feilds etc.

THESE are called TURF tyres for a reason. They work everytwhere but designed for grass. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... E_4308.JPG

[Burgerman]

OK Wheelchair services came, assessed, and listened.

She said that I wasnt asking for anything unreasonable, and will base the price on my prescription form, for my salsa, plus cushion, jay3? plus service and maintainance. Seemed ok, fairly easy going. Took many notes. And yes she knew little about chairs.

My salsa with my options came out at about £10800 to 11k retail since I choose all the expensive options as they are actually essential...
So we will see what she offers me. Seemed very fair. Maybe time to invest on a horse!

[Burgerman]

Assessed on salsa with:
6mph no problem - thats new!
power centre footrest - custom option no prob.
black option (not standard and not covered! Oh well)
power tilt
power lift
power recline
4 pole. No prob.
R-Net 120 no prob.
20 x 20 seat
single post arms
20 x 20 jay3 cushion, and tall jay3 back.
Colour LCD
Etc.

Plus 3 years maintainance.

[ICEUK]

On my groove the therapist actually suggested black, who wants bright blue or red.. Yuck
I. Had 6mph motors on my groove 5 years ago i told them i could travel further with them lol.

[Burgerman]

The only thing that she said they would likely not approve was lights. So she added something else in to cover that.

Black. On the Salsa/Jive chaiurs theres only white, blue and red. All look terrible and the rest of the black frame stands out and looks bad as a contrast. So black is a build for me option. Or about £30 bunged to any car body shop as a assistance fund. The orange stickers are available as spares.

[ICEUK]

Surprising they wouldnt fund lights in this age of litigation. Lawyers would have a field day if you were lnvolved in a accident at.night and had no lights.

[Burgerman]

Because technically they say they fund primarily indoor, 4 mph chairs. And have a nervous breakdown when you suggest using it as outdoor transport as everyone does!

At a guess, they will offer me whatever that adds up to retail, (11k) less their discount, (about 40 to 45%? At a guess) plus a cushion, plus some for maintainance. To cover the next 3 years. So they will offer about 7K at a very wild guess.

[ICEUK]

BM, so they will give you 7k and they then expect you to buy and service the chair for 3 years? as joe blogs cant get that discount to easily