Personal Wheelchair Budgets

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 23 Sep 2018, 10:05

My friend got a salsa m supplied through wcs and it dont get used as its not suitable, he brought himself a luca instead
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 23 Sep 2018, 10:17

My verdict? Its a start. But...


Thats a very short polite begging letter of about 2 paragraphs, that does not assess your needs or chair requirements at all. This POST is longer and more detailed. Mine was 25x as long, after spending several hours shortening it and condensing it to the essential bullet points. Adressed every need in detail, and suggested the solution, explained the tech reasons why x feature, and z need had to be addressed in each case. Making sure that I showed why the chair they suggested was not suitable and why. And supplied a list of chairs that met this requirement in each case. And only 1 chair that met them all, complete with specs, options, and a fillied in manufacturers prescription form. Leave them nowhere to go.

And it mine was not polite! And your "opinions" dont count. Only facts. No need to be rude. Logic offends them plenty good enough! For EG I never mentioned speed. They dont like that. You are offering them another get out excuse!!! But I did explain why I needed the torque for safe control, which meant 4 pole motors and high amp controller were essential. And I gave a detailed tech explanation to show why. And explained why a weak controller, and 2 pole motors, and a set of small batteries in that cheap solution they offered you will not work. And that means 6mph but dont actually say that... It will likely be PROGRAMMED down to 4 when you get it as they are terrified of giving you 6... And theres no budget!!! Dont say that. You are arming them for another get out escape route, which side are you on?

You can mention in a summary of your additional wants and holistic needs at the end after your clinical requirements are adressed, that you dont consider 4 mph is safe for a variety of reasons and give them, and that you cant transfer to a different chair yourself if you need food or to go to a bank or a doctor. So adequate safe and comfortable outdoor occasional use is absolutely essential. And explain why. And then explain that this is why the wheelchair budgets are being rolled out nationwide that many like me are already on since wheelchair services have failed for decades to provide adequate choice or solutions. So you can choose a chair that suits your needs.

That letter will achieve nothing as it is written. You are not writing to a freind. Quite the opposite. You are writing to someone trying not to spend any money on you if they can get away with it. You need a detailed tech assessement of your daily needs and requirenments on a one by one basis. Start at ardvark and end at xzylaphone. (I cant spell that!). Make a long detailed list. Then adress each point. Dont be polite. Thats the tool they use to make you comply...So you dont make waves. You need to make very big waves. Explain that what they offered is in no way suitable and if needed you will buy your own chair that does adress your needs, and sue them for the money very publically.


I agree with what you say BM, that's what I like about you, honest and straight to the point! :thumbup: :joint It would take me many months to write a fully detailed letter, as I don't type that quickly with my feet. So I'll try and do a condensed version which gets to the point.

Steve
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby LROBBINS » 23 Sep 2018, 11:44

In Italy there's no "assessment" by the bureaucracy, just prescription by a physician (usually a physiatrist or developmental neurologist), paper review, and then, once delivered, a demonstration that the person is able to drive it. If the medico legale who does that final collaudo then decides it's unsuitable, it goes back to the dealer. Usually,funding is from a national price list that is rarely updated so has "optimistic" prices and often doesn't cover newer technology. There is a way to go outside that list, but that gets quite complicated, and dealers often cheat to get full funding - certifying delivery of other items never ordered nor delivered, and the ufficio protesi looks the other way. Can't say it's really any worse than Blue Cross (our U.S. insurer), just different, and having both Rachi has done pretty well. For example, Blue Cross wouldn't cover a (personalized) shower chair ("that's just needed for hygiene, which isn't a medical necessity"), but the ufficio protesi people had a good laugh over the separation of hygiene from medical need, and covered it 100% - took all of 10 minutes in their office for that.

Ever since deciding to massively modify her existing chair rather than replace it and to roll my own control system I've not bothered with the Italian national health - they would simply not be able to deal with this. I did get partial coverage from Blue Cross for the new motors, tilt system, and Odyssey, but I'm not going to bother trying to get them to cover a Roboteq nor scratch-built CAN modules. They might, but they cost mostly sweat equity and doesn't break my family budget, so it's not worth the effort.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 13:56

Blue Cross wouldn't cover a (personalized) shower chair ("that's just needed for hygiene, which isn't a medical necessity"), but the ufficio protesi people had a good laugh over the separation of hygiene from medical need, and covered it 100% - took all of 10 minutes in their office for that.


How on earth is hygene not a medical necessity? Surely just a mention of infection, bugs, sores, and incontinence is enough to make any sane person get that! Hygene is one of the pillars, the first things that the medical science teaches and one of the main reasons we are not all dead by 40 as used to be the case... People going into clean hospitals came out alive!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby LROBBINS » 23 Sep 2018, 14:10

Of course your response is the same as the response of the (socialist) Italian National Health, but not that of the (capitalist) U.S. health insurance issuer. I might even have gotten them to cover it, after three levels of appeal - the private bureaucracy in the states is not much different from state bureaucracies elsewhere; the first response is almost always NO, but waste enough of your time and you might win.

At least until a precedent has been set, which was the case for Rachi's voice prosthesis. I got Blue Cross to fund, as a "compassionate exception" after multiple appeals, but later a sharp lawyer coordinating with the International Society for Autmentative and Alternative communication sued Medicare and won - at which point the private insurers no longer had an excuse. To add a ridiculous touch, Medicare insisted that a computer used for this purpose had to have software added that made it impossible to use it as a general-purpose computer (and the manufacturers then charge the customer cash to defeat that).
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 14:20

The goverments job in this us system should be to be sure that the cover from each insurer has all loose ends and cover details tied up, and a level playing field and common policy details across all companies, regardless of state of health or age, for the same value. If you choose to buy more extensive cover, your choice. But the base level should be the same for all, and cover all such obvious stuff as showerchairs. Electric beds, etc etc if you are assessed by a doctor or physio as requiring such equipment. Otherwise you get what we see...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby sacharlie » 23 Sep 2018, 16:45

LROBBINS wrote:Of course your response is the same as the response of the (socialist) Italian National Health, but not that of the (capitalist) U.S. health insurance issuer.

cheers
Yep but, it's always socialism bad capitalism good, with BM. banghead
To me it's socialism allows for more common sense while capitalism only counts DOLLARS & CENTS. hanged
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 17:06

Your medical system in the US is a long way from capitalism.

Real unfetterered capitalism makes money. ONLY because its addressing the needs of the user. And the one that does this the best, for the most competitive price, makes the most money, grows, and thats because it DOES adress the users needs. Only the option that works, at the right price gets the business.

But your system in the US is highly non competitive, full of regulation, and missing the few bits of the plan that make everything a level playing field completely. So free market forces do not apply... Your system is just a mess.

So yes:
cheers
Yep but, it's always socialism bad capitalism good, with BM.

CORRECT.
To me it's socialism allows for more common sense while capitalism only counts DOLLARS & CENTS. hanged

START AT THE TOP.

Thats because of a lack of ability to understand the obvious. And the result of socialism. I wont mention venuzuala again.

With true capitalism, the companies that doesent give the punters what they want, doesent offer excellent service and value for money, goes to the wall. And the opposite is also true. So standards and value for money go up. Under socialism or the US messed up system they get corrupt, lazy, and rip you off.

Socialism or socialist medicine just results in me having 3 patient lifts at huge cost that I didnt want or need, while people die in corridors with no beds available every winter and arguments over chairs, and no way to see a doctor without a 1 month apointment that makes you wait 2 hours to see a doctor for literally 6 minutes average time, to be told to take a painkiller. And having to go to the US for any complex treatment. Or treatment in a sensible timeframe.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby LROBBINS » 23 Sep 2018, 17:21

Informally, the Medicare coverage list provided the base rules for most private insurance. BUT, it left a lot of stuff uncovered that we would think is essential for PWD. Obamacare did set a formal basic standard and offers several specified extra-cost optional plans. It is not too far from what you describe, though it still leaves a lot of economic power in the hands of the insurance companies, and hospital administrators, and is still ham-strung by a law that says the government can not negotiate prices for drugs. Medicare, which is government health coverage for the elderly and some with disabilities, itself actually functions fairly well and is the ONLY program, government or private, that can get providers to actually tell them what their costs are. So, Medicare does not pay $75 for a hospital administrated acetiminophen pill, but a private insurer may have to negotiate down from there, and someone without insurance will be stuck with the full $75. It's also not unusual that the co-pay for an insurance covered drug is actually more than what the person would pay buying it outright, but pharmacists are forbidden (it's actually illegal) to tell the client that it would be cheaper to pay cash.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby sacharlie » 23 Sep 2018, 17:25

US citizens also take medical tourism trips, so that is a useless argument.

Also the USA has never been able to claim TRUE CAPITALISM as the foundation of the economy. The USA does thrive with a system of economic and social slavery. :hammer
The United Corporation of America does have the greatest government money can buy.

Propaganda can make a pig's ear look silky smooth. :dance
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 17:29

Exactly. Its ham strung, tied in rules and laws that prevent free trade or even the end user knowing the price! So it is not running as a free trade capitalist self regulating system, because it cant. Its set up to not allow this. And the lowest standards covered by law are not adequately described and ambiguous, and or also not adequate for peoples basic needs. So you get the pricing distortions that I see on the web and on here for medical stuff and inadequate cover.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby sacharlie » 23 Sep 2018, 17:33

LROBBINS wrote:Informally, the Medicare coverage list provided the base rules for most private insurance. BUT, it left a lot of stuff uncovered that we would think is essential for PWD. Obamacare did set a formal basic standard and offers several specified extra-cost optional plans. It is not too far from what you describe, though it still leaves a lot of economic power in the hands of the insurance companies, and hospital administrators, and is still ham-strung by a law that says the government can not negotiate prices for drugs. Medicare, which is government health coverage for the elderly and some with disabilities, itself actually functions fairly well and is the ONLY program, government or private, that can get providers to actually tell them what their costs are. So, Medicare does not pay $75 for a hospital administrated acetiminophen pill, but a private insurer may have to negotiate down from there, and someone without insurance will be stuck with the full $75.

It's also not unusual that the co-pay for an insurance covered drug is actually more than what the person would pay buying it outright, but pharmacists are forbidden (it's actually illegal) to tell the client that it would be cheaper to pay cash.


Your last sentence is so true, I know from personal experience. So much for free markets and all the propaganda here.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 17:43

US citizens also take medical tourism trips, so that is a useless argument.
Also the USA has never been able to claim TRUE CAPITALISM as the foundation of the economy. The USA does thrive with a system of economic and social slavery. :hammer
The United Corporation of America does have the greatest government money can buy.
Propaganda can make a pig's ear look silky smooth. :dance


However. The US is the most capitalist free economy in the world. And also the richest country per population head in the world. I suppose you are going to tell me that its not related? Because the same is true across the planet. The most capitalist countries are always the richer ones. And the socialist ones are always the poorest. Like Ve.....

Where in the most capitalist country in the world, yours, even the sick and disabled like us, on this forum, live in comfort in a modern safe protected society, and with houses, air conditioning, cars, flat screen TVs, and a fridge full of food, heat, power, medical care and in my case a robotic mower! Thats richer than everyone in a socialist country... And much richer than 90% of the planet most of which survive on under 1 dollar a day. And you may not like the fact that the ultra rich have more than you, but the alternative (centrally planned economies, and wealth redistribution) always makes EVERYONE poorer in the end. Why do you think east germany were so desperate to knock down the wall to get to the west german half? Get over your jealousy and open your eyes. If you dont like it, do what they do.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 23 Sep 2018, 17:46

I was half way through a reply on why I don't consider myself a socialist then realised that I would rather see my taxes be used to save children's lives in an NHS hospital than bail out a dysfunctional capitalist banking system to the tune of almost £1tn. Don't know why but me helping a load of wealthy bankers out after they screwed the economy just doesn't feel right.

And one needs to be careful judging others who receive benefits, long term unemployed claiming sickness benefits could be seen by some as no different to 2nd./3rd generation unemployed. Maybe I am a paradox, disabled, have my own business, pay tax and NI and don't begrudge it being used on those less fortunate than me but don't want to see it used helping the wealthy. Hmm, maybe I am a socialist, shit it just sneaked up on me. :)
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 17:55

I was half way through a reply on why I don't consider myself a socialist then realised that I would rather see my taxes be used to save children's lives in an NHS hospital than bail out a dysfunctional capitalist banking system to the tune of almost £1tn. Don't know why but me helping a load of wealthy bankers out after they screwed the economy just doesn't feel right.

Correct! Bailing out a business with tax payers money, is a SOCIALIST thing to do. Under a capitalist system they would collapse and the bank or business that cocked everything up, goes to the wall. So you needed to vote a more capitalist government in. Or a less corrupt one.
And one needs to be careful judging others who receive benefits, long term unemployed claiming sickness benefits could be seen by some as no different to 2nd./3rd generation unemployed. Maybe I am a paradox, disabled, have my own business, pay tax and NI and don't begrudge it being used on those less fortunate than me but don't want to see it used helping the wealthy. Hmm, maybe I am a socialist, shit it just sneaked up on me. :)

Well the best way to hurt the poor is to tax the wealthy more, and to tax business more. Because thats the best way to destroy the economy. And when living standards are low, the poor and those on benefits suffer the most. And eventually the socialist runs out of other people money to hand out. So then they are doubly screwed. The rich couldnt care less. One less ferrari, or sacking a few staff, doesent hurt them. So you have it back asswards like most socialists. Ask Chavez... He thought like you.


youtu.be/CCIdm3cM6zQ
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 18:03

More socialism

youtu.be/S6HEH23W_bM
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 18:06

More socialism

youtu.be/HwcHRyvrNCE
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 18:10

Finally, watch...


youtu.be/J_Bzw8W1rS8
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby sacharlie » 23 Sep 2018, 18:31

Here we go again with BM's cartoons.

As to socialism in Zuela or Cuba working, who really knows. The United Corporation of America have always opposed such a system and called upon the Monroe Doctrine to force the US to embargo such attempts.

If you are satisfied with your limits of knowledge provided to you by those in charge there is nothing left to say on the matter.

There are books out there; the truth is out there.
Try "The People's History of the United States" or "Hegemony" or "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 23 Sep 2018, 18:54

I knew something changed when I got rid of the 911 and Ducatis. And now live on 20% of what I used to earn yet feel richer for it. Maybe because I know that I probably wouldn't be able to live without the benefits of socialism, could you?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 19:36

It dpends on what you mean.

No country is pure capitalism, because capitalism simply means free trade. It not a method of government in any way. Capitalism is simply free trade, free employment, and allowing the quality and value of goods, services, pay, etc to find its own level. As in supply and demand. Nobody in charge is required.

So we apoint civil servants to form a government to control the safety net of benefits and hand outs to support people like us. NOT the generations of lifestyle unemployed. And to do this, and keep us safe, we need big projects like military, infrastructure, court systems, standards etc. So we have a capitalist economy, providing the gdp, jobs, standard of living etc. And a socialist component that does the things we ask it to do.

The rot starts when the socialists get into power and government grows, and grows, and taxes the top to give to the poor, starts minimum wages that benefit nobody, and starts controlling everything with mountains of red tape, and worker benefits, and so on. That SEEMS like the obvious thing to do. But it ends like venuzuala. It causes the economy to behave worse. So you must keep the system as capitalist and free trade as possible. Things like socialist medical care. Housing benefit for long term lifestyle unemployed etc just makes ALL of us poorer including them long term. Socialist economics always fails. We have a stupid retard called corbyn. He is a marxist, who was raving about how marveous chavez was and how socialism was a better way and look how great it was. At the time I said to my mates in the pub, I give it 15 to 20 years before the oil rich country went bankrupt. He managed it in under 10! And wow, the poor are really well off now!!! Money is used as bog roll, since its cheaper. And theres no food, and they ate all the pets, including the zoo animals. Taking from the rich, giving to the poor always results in this. Do it a little, be a little poorer. Do it a lot and end up like venuzuala or east germany. Look at north/south korea. One is rich, inc the poor. The other is desperate. They dont even have any lights. http://www.7dnevno.hr/wp-content/upload ... luotok.jpg
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby sacharlie » 23 Sep 2018, 19:49

Without the benefits of socialism the coyotes would have cleaned my bones right there in the ditch I drove into and BM would have fertilized the tree he smacked into. :thumbdown:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2018, 19:56

I absolutely disagree. The reason the meat wagons, hospitals, helicopters exist AT ALL, is only because of the commertial free trade capitalist world. Same with the drugs.Without a capitalist system most of the discoveries, and future development would never have happened. The modern society you live in would look like the soviet union. With its antiquated cars and empty shops, and poverty. And forced to work, because wages were no enticement as there was literally nothing to buy. The successful and rich need a emergency system, ambulances, helicopters and hospitals. So they exist. And if you had a proper free trade system, the most efficient of all, you could more easily afford the premiums. And a roof. Because they want your money. And so compete on price and performance and efficiency to get it.

Shame you dont have that. Of course the hospitals dont have power, fuel, drugs, or even clean sheets in the socialist venuzuala, your prefered system, where the majority of the money went into helping those at the bottom. The result of doing this is not obvious, and it always does the opposite to what you expect. I ca easily see why. Socialists never can. So we get rinse and repeat economic destruction every time its tried over...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 24 Sep 2018, 12:45

Try researching capitalism and debt and you realise that it can't exist without the banking money creation system. Money just keeps on being created as debt. Without money Capitalism fails but the money creators found ways to securitise debt, government has a duty to restrict this but they fail, greed always wins whether for power or wealth, doesn't matter whether it is capitalist or socialist you'll never get rid of those who want more than they need so tax them.

Letting banks fail should be the way to go but the impact of multiple failures at the same time would cause chaos for the majority so as a fix we create more debt, you couldn't make it up.

The UK benefits system needs an overhaul especially post Brexit when employers will need workers, no excuses for anyone not to find a job. Sadly I can guarantee that some will still fail. Humans, greedy and lazy.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2018, 13:05

Rubbish. The capitalist system simply means free trade, and the right to own property. I.e. stuff...

The barter system is capitalist. Where you get the idea that you need debt baffles me.You can borrow if if you wish. Like borrow 3 sheep from your neibour. But he will want 4 back as payment fore being without his sheep. (cant make jumpers!). So if you have half a brain you wont borrow.

Dont blame capitalism for debt!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 24 Sep 2018, 13:58

Capitalism relies upon goods being manufactured and sold, debt facilitates purchase so you sell more thus make more and the economy grows. Without debt you rely upon purchasers earning enough to buy but that is a long process. To get economic growth create the ability to borrow whether for individual use or corporate. For corporate even more important hence the business problems post financial crash, banks restricted borrowing firms struggled to invest in growth of the business. Debt is the engine and driver of demand and you need demand. Look at how so many now lease cars, cars they could never afford to buy, that creates manufacturing jobs, the workers employed earn and can purchase and so it goes around.

Try the FT https://www.ft.com/content/e23c6d04-659 ... 144feabdc0

UK consumer spending is one of the biggest parts of the economy, UK consumer debt a huge debt, it is not a coincidence.

Capitalism without debt will work but slowly as you need wealth creation for the thing to keep spinning.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 24 Sep 2018, 14:01

Oh it is not capitalism' fault it is just some greedy capitalist's want it to spin faster.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 24 Sep 2018, 18:16

And the reality, imaginary margins used to make it simpler a manufacturer makes something with a cost of £1000, they sell to a dealer at £2000 but give the dealer 60 days credit, dealer sells at £3000 to end customer who uses a credit card or unsecured loan, debt now £5k but wait, the manufacturer doesn't have the cashflow to support paying for materials in advance and also giving dealer credit so they have an overdraft and you need to add £1k to the debt so you have £6k debt on something that cost £1k. That is the reality of capitalism, without debt it would be slow growth. Money is created by banks lending, fractional reserve banking allows them to do it. The problems come when the fraction of real money is small and the multiple high. If you want to see how well capitalism works google UK consumer debt and then consider whether our "wealth" is real.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2018, 19:01

Offering money for a loan, or borrowing money for a loan, and disguised as monthly credit etc when supplying a dealer as a manufacturer is just that. A loan, is still costing you. Because that business has to get that money from somewhere, and or/could invest it or buy bulk stock cheaper if it wasnt lending it out as credit.

Borrowing money has nothing to do with capitalism. And you can do so just the same no matter what economic system, or even bartering with sheep, regardless. If you make stupid life choices.

Personally I never borrowed anything in my life. Not on a bank loan, or a carloan, credit card, or a sofa, or a mobile phone contract, or anything else. With one exception. I have no loans, my house is paid for, and my car the same. I dont CHOOSE to borrow money, and pay interest because thats the way to the poor house. No matter what economic system you have in your country. The one exception was when I was 18 I bought a house to make myself a profit. I borrowed 30k, paid back 40k. Why? Because I rented it out to people stupid enough to rent which they will all have "excuses" for. Which amount toprevious bad life choices or buying something you cant afford yet. Which paid me back 50k! And on top of that it paid for the property which I then sold for 78k 20 years later on...

So as usual the person that decided to rent instead of buy, got to buy me a house, and pay me some income too. Because THEY chose to rent instead of buy. They end up with nothing and a cost of 50k for the privlidge of somewhere to live. I end up with the sale of a house and the 10k profit on rent, so 88k profit for doing almost nothing. Other than making wiser life choices.

However, capitalism does not require any loans. And doesent require a bank either. Although it doesent exclude them. So if you can borrow money to make money, great. But to borrow money because you cant afford something NOW, is a stupid life choice. banghead What it is not is capitalist or socialist. Both borrow and both have stupid people around that will do that for the wrong reasons. Banks are just another business. They can be good or bad. Your FREE choice.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2018, 19:22

Incidentally your hypothisis that loans and subsequent debt makes people spend more on products is flawed. At least long term.

I have many expensive luxuries, and many new cars and 10k bikes, 4k cameras/lenses, 2.5k TV used as a PC monitor, and another in my lounge, fancy carpets and sofas etc, many holidays, a 4 bedroomed house paid for, and money in the bank. And ran several businesses and employed many others. Made a good profit, and lived much better than the average debt laden person with mortgages and credit card payments and phone contracts and monthly direct debits. I have none of that ever! And spent more £ over my lifetime than most people could ever hope to. And I never used any type of business loans, credit, personal loans or credit at any time and thats WHY. Because making the right lifestyle choices (such as above) early on snowballs wildly as time goes on and means you have much more disposable income later in life to spend on luxury products and have no outgoings. Why do you think I can buy a new powerchair or two cash if I feel like it? And I do. At advantagous prices. Or a new van from the US at HALF price because I saw that there were 2 dollars to the pound in 2007? Its exactly because I never buy what I cant afford, never used loans, when younger. I invested in my future not in a bank. So now the bank pays me, not the other way around. So easy access to credit actually makes people poorer long term.
Meaning that society has LESS to spend on services, property, products.

The only person that should ever get a loan, is the one that doesent need one. Because EVERYTHING costs more on credit than it does without. So if you cant afford something without borrowing, you CERTAINLY cant afford it WITH borrowing!!!

I might also add that every time our socialist labour party get in they basically bankrupt the country and leave it in massive debt that the capitalist conservative party then have to spend 10 years trying to pay this back, successfully. And while at it, Socialist island of peurto rico, and socialist venuzuala, and all the other collapsed socialist countries, all have and did have absolutely massive and totally unservicable debt. With no way to ever pay it back. Once they ransaked all business and every other way to steal money to give to the working classes and the poor. Everything then collapsed as always.
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