Personal Wheelchair Budgets

[wheelie junkie]

The first thing you need to do is understand what you need to say to get the direct payment there is a small problem in that many CCG's already have systems in place for PWB's for manual chairs and will be forced to include power chairs. You need to understand how each system works because the guidelines are ambiguous and CCG's will interpret as they want.

Going into it and not knowing whether they will give a direct payment as a cheque is essential. You keep going on about what you get but it is not a PWB and is totally irrelevant in almost every other area you wouldn't get it. It was done prior to PWB and no-one has changed it. Enjoy whilst you can

For everyone else the PWB now has guidelines and will have legislation so you have to play the system. I'd guess almost every WCS will agree a wheelchair spec with you and want proof that you purchased the agreed spec chair, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they do this. The lack of clarity leaves gaps, you can't contribute personally but could a charity or Access to Work contribute? Lots of areas which might be used but you need to understand them before you can push or fight. To do that you need to know what things like NHS Commissioned Services are or whether your CHC can be used. If you can't understand you need to learn!

My CCG already have a system for manual chairs, it requires proof of purchase so an invoice or receipt to show that you bought what was agreed, personally I won't use a direct payment under those terms I'll be better off agreeing that I get a Q700R instead of the top level Q200R they supply and paying the difference if they do it all at the price they pay. It would only be the base chair as they already have to fit micro guide joystick, neck harness, Omni Jay backrest, Roho cushion, Ottobock armrests, Ottobock headrest, 4 point chest harness and tilt to any chair they supply. Q700R has 4 pole motor, R Net 120A etc. If they do the difference at cost it saves me negotiating a discount from a dealer.

If you don't do any of the above you probably won't get a direct payment, you have to understand it.

[Burgerman]

The first thing you need to do is understand what you need to say to get the direct payment there is a small problem in that many CCG's already have systems in place for PWB's for manual chairs and will be forced to include power chairs. You need to understand how each system works because the guidelines are ambiguous and CCG's will interpret as they want.

The fact that many different WCS and CCGs have "interpreted it" wrong IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Its THEIRS!!!

Going into it and not knowing whether they will give a direct payment as a cheque is essential

.
Yes they all will. If you force the to do as they are supposed to be doing.

You keep going on about what you get but it is not a PWB and is totally irrelevant in almost every other area you wouldn't get it. It was done prior to PWB and no-one has changed it. Enjoy whilst you can

Funny how the bank statements refer to it as a PWB and NHS then isnt it... You are just wrong and hung up on details. Theres others on here too that have been successeful, including the user that actually sent me that green flier. Thats not from my area either.

For everyone else the PWB now has guidelines and will have legislation so you have to play the system. I'd guess almost every WCS will agree a wheelchair spec with you and want proof that you purchased the agreed spec chair, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they do this.

Wrong. The PWB was intended right from the start to give YOU the freedom to use the budget how you wish. Even if that means building your own chair, maintaining your existing fleet, buying used, or whatever. That is the whole point of it. So yes not only is what you say unreasonable but its WRONG.

The lack of clarity leaves gaps, you can't contribute personally but could a charity or Access to Work contribute?

Of course you can contribute personally. And you can add it up for 4 6 or 10 years to buy whatever YOU CHOOSE.

Lots of areas which might be used but you need to understand them before you can push or fight. To do that you need to know what things like NHS Commissioned Services are or whether your CHC can be used. If you can't understand you need to learn!

Oh god. You would do great as a typical hobby comittee member. No you dont. You only need to understand YOUR clinical and holistic needs. And to understand what best fits in with this and your lifestyle. And you need to show this in YOUR OWN assessement. If that means something they cannot provide then you can use the money for the 4mph chair they will provide, and add your own money to that to best fit YOUR CHOICE.

My CCG already have a system for manual chairs, it requires proof of purchase so an invoice or receipt to show that you bought what was agreed, personally I won't use a direct payment under those terms I'll be better off agreeing that I get a Q700R instead of the top level Q200R they supply and paying the difference if they do it all at the price they pay.

You have not understood any of this have you. You deserve what you get.
Its not about manual, powered, or 6 or 8 mph, lights, or anything else. Its about identifying YOUR NEEDS and YOUR REQUIREMENTS. Then if their remit for chairs cannot supply this, they offer you money that they WOULD HAVE SPENT on a chair that meets your assessed needs. So that you can use that or some of it to do as YOU CHOOSE. If thats a new. used, faster, or completely DIY chair then thats fine. The fact that your WCS have purposely ignored the original intention, and had it rubber stamped by a bunch of old doctors in a pub (the typical CCG committee meeting) is not relevant. It can be changed, other funding used, etc. Ask me how I know. They can break as many of the rules that you get hung up on as they want. Those rules are just their get out of jail free card). They are an excuse.

It would only be the base chair as they already have to fit micro guide joystick, neck harness, Omni Jay backrest, Roho cushion, Ottobock armrests, Ottobock headrest, 4 point chest harness and tilt to any chair they supply. Q700R has 4 pole motor, R Net 120A etc. If they do the difference at cost it saves me negotiating a discount from a dealer.

Non of that is remotely relevant.

If you don't do any of the above you probably won't get a direct payment, you have to understand it.

I give up. You are a hopeless case. You neither need or want a budget. So why dont you just accept their offer of a deckchair plus extras and stop worrying about the details. YOU dont have a cese for, or any interest in a personal budget anyway. And thats the only reason why you dont get one.

[wheelie junkie]

The problem is not theirs, it is yours, you have to get passed it, they'll just keep doing what they are doing. The 2 get out clauses for direct payment both link to CHC or commissioned services you have to get around them, I'm pretty sure that the commissioned service is the NHS commissioning a CHC package and the need for a specialist chair is identified as part of your care. . The issue on direct payment and personal contribution is clear, there are regulations on it. Of course you can still contribute but you might have to use one of the other 3 alternatives not direct payment. As I keep saying you need to understand how they operate before taking them on, if you don't you haven't got a chance. It is not difficult just research and knowing what they currently do, then preparing your argument.

I do want the chair of my choice which means a PWB, I'm not bothered about a direct payment if one of the other options gets that chair at a lower personal cost and is easy to sort. Ultimately all that matters is getting a chair and I can do that via access to Work but the advantage of a PWB is I can combine the 2. I get what I want with no contribution and no hassle. Sorry, a little bit of work agreeing the spec then getting it sorted, got no problem with them paying supplier directly and leaving me out of it, don't need a cheque just a chair, basically that is how my Access to Work works, I spec the chair, get 3 quotes, select the best, order chair, send them the invoice, they pay. I pay my personal contribution when chair is delivered. That works for me. Don't really need a new chair but they invited me in so I might as well have a decent backup chair. I'll get that not from kicking the system but from working with them because they know legislation is coming.

Each to their own, if someone wants a direct payment they will have to expect a fight, if you just want a suitable chair you have other options. Pick whichever suits.

[Burgerman]

The problem is not theirs, it is yours, you have to get passed it, they'll just keep doing what they are doing.

No. I dont have a problem. You do. And if I moved to your location, I still wouldnt. I may have a small fight, but I would get the same result I ave now.

The 2 get out clauses for direct payment both link to CHC or commissioned services you have to get around them, I'm pretty sure that the commissioned service is the NHS commissioning a CHC package and the need for a specialist chair is identified as part of your care. .

Thats one method of funding. Theres many others and many ways to overide that too. You are fixating on the one thing. Remember that non of that even existed when I talked them into giving me $$$$ instead of a chair to do my own thing. On a new pilot scheme, called PWB of initially just one person. Me. And it was not then paid by the wheelchair services but some fudge they did so the LA paid the bill, and they paid the LA. back. Thats not the case now, and the WCS pay via whatever it takes.

The issue on direct payment and personal contribution is clear, there are regulations on it. Of course you can still contribute but you might have to use one of the other 3 alternatives not direct payment. As I keep saying you need to understand how they operate before taking them on, if you don't you haven't got a chance. It is not difficult just research and knowing what they currently do, then preparing your argument.

Obviously not true. Since I dont have a clue pays behind the scenes. Only that this is their problem Not mine. I deal with the WCS only. What they do to get my money is their business. And they do it.

I do want the chair of my choice which means a PWB,

That is NOT how it works. If you identify and agree a NEED or a desire to buy something that is not in their remit, and may cost way more, then just like the old restricted VOUCHER scheme they allow you to make up the difference. On a chair from their recognised supplier etc (read backhander). The difference here is that there IS NO RECOGNISED SUPPLIER. You buy or build whatever you want. And if that is some lease scheme, or DIY build, or whatever at any cost you feel like paying, over whatever time period, then thats YOUR CHOICE.

I'm not bothered about a direct payment if one of the other options gets that chair at a lower personal cost and is easy to sort.

Then not only do you NOT want or need a PWB you wont be elligible for one as the agreed need does not require one.

[wheelie junkie]

You still don't get it, you got your system before there were guidelines, now they exist as will legislation. It is not the same. Now you have to comply with guidelines and if you don't fit explain why you should. To do that you need to understand, you won't just get a direct payment especially in areas where power hairs haven't been part of the voucher scheme or PWB.

I'm as entitled as anyone else who qualifies for PWB, my assessment identifies specific areas of need that wouldn't be covered with a basic chair, 3 years with a Salsa that I couldn't get across our yard testimony to that. The WCS OT fully agreed with my self assessment and now they have to find a way to make sure that I get a chair that is suitable and fits those needs. That is now their problem, I'm not asking for a cheque just a suitable chair. It is just the same as how you approached it only I am not bothered about how it is paid for cheque to me or other method, they all work. Exactly what a PWB is meant to do.

There are other methods of funding but I don't qualify for any that are means tested, Access to Work is the only one I can use now it is better, I can combine A2W and PWB.

Others will hit the same problem at I have but with legislation there is a way through it and I hope others do what I did, contact NHS England and get confirmation power chairs are included, do a comprehensive self assessment then go back to WCS, find out how their direct payment scheme works and if you want that work out how to get a cheque. I can guarantee that it won't be a simple thing in some areas and you'll have to fight.

[Burgerman]

Rubbish.

Wewent through all this at my last budget.

[terry2]

The meeting with the WCS and the commission is today.
Wonder how long for them to make their minds up? A week or 2?

I went to the local church as there are about 5 in electric wheel chairs.
Asked if anyone of the got\put in for the money instead of a chair.

4 did. But only 1 was offered some cash towards a chair. And that was £3,500.

[Burgerman]

They made their minds up before they ever heard of you. The rest of it was a surprise to them.

Church? Are you serious???

[terry2]

They made their minds up before they ever heard of you. The rest of it was a surprise to them.

Church? Are you serious???

It's a church come Cafe\meeting hall\garden centre and a few others. It's a big place.

We have big places in the city...you country boy

[Burgerman]

Dont care how big. Its full of the illogical delusionalist nutters. I would avoid it.

Also understand that your tea pays into the church funds. Thats why that big resturant thing exists. Its a money making system for the church. They use it to send missionaries to poor third world countries to spread their desease and mind control to those with more than enough issues already. Then they start banging nails into their own childrens heads for e.g. to drive out "evil spirits" that have turned them into witches. Seriously. I kid you not. Just 1 example. Because religious ignorance is always bad. Esp now in the hands of savages that dont understand how the world works, who read this rubbish, and think its true! And YOU caused it.

King James Bible; Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

And a dozen other witch claims. Remember, abandoned, and tortured children, peope nailed in the head, and to crosses, or burned alive, all due to your cup of tea!

[terry2]

Dont care how big. Its full of the illogical delusionalist nutters. I would avoid it.

Also understand that your tea pays into the church funds. Thats why that big resturant thing exists. Its a money making system for the church. They use it to send missionaries to poor third world countries to spread their desease and mind control to those with more than enough issues already. Then they start banging nails into their own childrens heads for e.g. to drive out "evil spirits" that have turned them into witches. Seriously. I kid you not. Just 1 example. Because religious ignorance is always bad. Esp now in the hands of savages that dont understand how the world works, who read this rubbish, and think its true! And YOU caused it.

King James Bible; Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

And a dozen other witch claims. Remember, abandoned, and tortured children, peope nailed in the head, and to crosses, or burned alive, all due to your cup of tea!

Where do you live?
It must be a very bad place when people do that.
The church by me is run by the people for the people.
It's the same as some of our shops are run by the people. So we have cheap fish and chips ECT.

And the money they make goes back in to local things.

Anyway.

The WCS has recommended that I get a Third Party PWB or an Independent voucher.
So it's up to the commissioner now. I may know soon.

[Burgerman]

Thats great. If they give you enough.

However

Where do you live?
It must be a very bad place when people do that.
The church by me is run by the people for the people.

Its not the PLACE. Its caused by RELIGOUS ignorance, the religous world view. It happens everywhere that religion exists. Unfortunately it is spread across the planet by the very same church your tea subsidises.

Religion is ALWAYS bad. It has repeatedly been responsible for death, suffering, control by way of fear (carrot and stick), guilt complexes, stupid laws, and other evils across the planet. It doesent matter where you live. If you live in the UK for e.g. its responsible for the lack of reseach in stem cell cures. DNA editing, and many other things. The problem is that once your world view is distorted by a false belief, your decisions that you make, be it as a councilor, law maker. politition, doctor, and 1001 other things, are all then controlled by your false distorted world view. I and you may never have needed to be in a chair by way of example to begin with. All religion is brain washing, usually of children which is child abuse mentally that scars them for life. And thats before they start sawing off bits of their genitals or whatever. Its evil. Screwed up for life. So avoid that tea and the nice "freindly" delusionalists because the proceeds fro this are what pays to send the issionaries to further spread this desease to the poorest parts of the world.


And islam is even worse today.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[duke1]

hi all well after a bit more homework i have found that the pwb has never been issued in west sussex and best we can hope for is a wcs crap the form come in post for the wcs assessment this morning so my question is if the powers that be say no to a pwb and tina has to take one of theres or nothing i have heard mention of salsa 4mph nhs chair that can be reprogrammed to be 6mph is this right anyone?if so can anyone say a model or type and maybe we have to try that.
the form has less than 10 questions how can they possibly assess anyone needs from that to know if you need one idk,do they just go by what gp tells them or the applicant,i have written a detailed self assessment but seems pointless if she has no choice,idk but any advice welcome

[Burgerman]

StaRT at post one and read slowly.

The 4 pole one can be programmed down to 4mph by wcs. Or supplied that way. Then it can be set back to its 6 later. The 4mph 2 pole motor one cant. The 6mph 2 pole one you dont want... But it too can be programmed back to 6.

[duke1]

StaRT at post one and read slowly.

The 4 pole one can be programmed down to 4mph by wcs. Or supplied that way. Then it can be set back to its 6 later. The 4mph 2 pole motor one cant. The 6mph 2 pole one you dont want... But it too can be programmed back to 6.

hi i have read entire thread,i now know more about salsas and seating etc than i need!i reckon our wcs must be bored as the form only came yesterday and this morning they phoned tina asking why we not returned the form yet!so i filled it in included the hand written assessment i wrote,i cheekily told them a half truth being that i am a apprentiship served wheelchair technician,i didnt tell them that was in 1980 something and chair have changed a lot since then but tried to make clear a 4 mph 2 pole small lead chair would be of zero use as we tried that allready and not only did she hate it but it could not even climb the ramps into the car so im dropping the form of by hand in a minute and see what occurs and if needs be i be onto our mp who is quite helpful for tory mp and i have also enlisted support from tinas ot so they might listen,maybe!thanks all for the advises and helping,peace all

[wheelie junkie]

If you contact NHS England from the PWB pages and ask them to confirm that it will be the legal responsibility of every CCG to provide a PWB and that it includes power chairs you might find a change in attitude. A well prepared self assessment helps, ask the WCS OT to read it and confirm that they agree with all your points and will include them in their report. Salsa is being replaced with new Q100/200 probably not that different and unsuitable if you actually want to lead a "normal" life.

[terry2]

Well.
The commission in Birmingham is on holiday(the person that is dealing with me)
So I have to wait till next monday or so to find out if I have been successful.

I was told that I would only get £2,000 including some maintenance thing.
Short staff or not. It's bloody silly.

[Burgerman]

You started out wrong. You let them drive and assess you. You got exactly the treatment I expected.

You MUST take charge, from the start and mean it. But I give up. Nobody listens. You negotiated like tereasa may. Instead of donald trump.

Now you are in the wrong situation. You now have to try to negotiate them up to hat you wanted. Instead of them being on the defensive and trying to explain to you why they wanted to offer less.

[terry2]

You started out wrong. You let them drive and assess you. You got exactly the treatment I expected.

You MUST take charge, from the start and mean it. But I give up. Nobody listens. You negotiated like tereasa may. Instead of donald trump.

Now you are in the wrong situation. You now have to try to negotiate them up to hat you wanted. Instead of them being on the defensive and trying to explain to you why they wanted to offer less.

As i have said already said.

I did do what people here said and advised me to do. Yes even the 4 page self assessment backed up by my doctor.

I don't really care now as I've got what I wanted. A Meyra Optimus RS

[terry2]

So. The commission got back to me saying they are going to give me some cash

But they say I have to buy the chair from certain sellers. Is this right?

I will know more by the end of the day.
I have got my new Ferrari coming in a few weeks

[Burgerman]

No of course its not!!!
Thats called the voucher scheme.

The very restrictive thing that the wheelchair budget was designed specifically to replace. You negotiate like teresa may, be like trump. You went along with the "nice ladies" because you were worried about upsetting anyone.

Thats the voucher scheme that ties you to their list of suppliers and a list of chairs so they get a pre aranged backhander. And so you cant get a discount, or buy used, in germany or build or mod your own etc. It removes all your options! The budget's entire purpose is to remove all these restrictions, the very reason that it exists. To allow YOU to choose YOUR OWN options. Like my bm3 or YOUR CHOICE of whatever you wish used, parts, or otherwise.

Notice the title: Wheelchair Bugets. MY life, MY choice!!!

Print this out and explain it to them. READ them an EXAMPLE:
"John aged 51" (me, 2 years into the scheme, who is now 60) as an example of what FLEXIBILITY and CHOICE actually means.

And point out that this REPLACES their stupid restrictive voucher scheme. (Read that to them as well), from their own damned flyer.

[wheelie junkie]

https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... stions/#q6 Options for managing a personal wheelchair budget - direct payment, print and highlight that, nowhere does it limit you to certain suppliers. BM's poster is for Lincolnshire, most CCG's aren't following their example. You will probably have to provide evidence of purchasing what they agreed to fund to meet your care needs. See if you can find anyone with a PHB for a manual chair to find out what they had to do.

[terry2]

Maybe I should of expanded.

They will give me a PWB if I wait for a month or two.

As I have already said. My new chair is paid for and on it's way very soon.
I think I may drag it out, just to see how far they will go.

BM. I used to run one of the biggest pubs in the midlands. So yes. I know how to talk to people
They did offer me a very nice 4 mph chair. I forgot what it was called but it was fully loaded.
I have the commissions boss calling me later.

[terry2]

Update.

The CCGs around Birmingham\Solihul have not got the PWB up and running as yet.

To get around having to pay people the monies in to there bank account. They tell you to read this page. https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/

Where it says "This legal right is expected to come into force by the end of 2019." this is their get out of jail clause.
I have been in touch with CAB and other people. There is nothing anyone in my area can do about it till it becomes law.

Cab has said that even though Birmingham\Solihull has the most money of any council in the UK. There hands are tied.

The upshot of this is that I can have a large voucher for a chair of my choice. Sounds good! No.
I have got to buy through companies\people that supply chairs. What a stupid thing!

I'm just glad I don't have to rely on the tax payer to fund my needs. But I do feel sorry for those that do.

Oh and BM. I was up the hospital and I asked over 35 people with an electric chair.
Not one had been given a PWB as it's not introduced here.

[Burgerman]

They have modified that page. Because any CCGs have IGNORED what they were supposed to do. And it now adds a legal entitlement with a 3 months deadline.

That should never have been required. In any sane business, the various CCGs that failed to implement the head of the companies requests, by the boss simon stevens, would have been fired. The socialist run NHS however is just like parliment is at the moment. And failing to do as the boss (or the people) says. So 3 or 4 years late, they are being FORCED to do as they were originally told and expected to implement. And it still wont work as they will now all invent all their own rules and restrictions that were not ever intended. EG anual chairs only or approved chairs etc. So you must still fight for your rights to do your own thing, and for them to pay you a sensible figure to do so. Its NOT just supposed to be a restrictive renaming of the old voucher scheme.

[wheelie junkie]

It's just a numbers game, make their own rules to save cash and unlikely to be 2019 because so much legislation is not being passed thanks to Brexit. Even worse they won't do a retrospective payment. Similar situation in Continuing Health Care where the CCG's were rewriting the national framework so NHS England put out a revised version so they all follow it or start again altering it. Self appointed NHS bean counters with seemingly no-one to control them.

[Burgerman]

Thats exactly why socialism, socialist "economics", and everything OTHER than free market forces in trade, employment (hire and fire) etc fails every single time.

[terry2]

Bad news and good news.

The ebay seller that was supposed to deliver my chair has now said there was a fault in the chair and it got sent back.
I called BS on this as I know they come from Germany all boxed up.

So now I have to pay the full price

Got in touch with Horizon Mobility and they are going to get my chair for me.
The wheel chair service lady has been golden and is help to push through the voucher to the shop.

The problem now is that the local CCG has a person doing a voucher that has never done a voucher before
So that will take a week. Then another month for the chair to come...

But the other good news is that they will change the speed to 10 mph for me
I also found out that the 4 mph version of the Meyra optimus 2 can not be made to go faster...ever.

[Burgerman]

Thats because...

To fit a faster motor, and then to program it slower is unbelievably stupid.

Because a 8mph motor, running at a programmed 4mph is HALF as efficient as just fitting a motor with 4mph gearing.
So it draws DOUBLE the amps, all of the time, at every turn, every speed. So you get half the potential range, and shortened battery life for no reason.

Its the equivelent to fitting a 4 litre engine to a car, instead of a a 2 litre one, and driving everywhere with the handbrake on.

[duke1]

Bad news and good news.

The ebay seller that was supposed to deliver my chair has now said there was a fault in the chair and it got sent back.
I called BS on this as I know they come from Germany all boxed up.

So now I have to pay the full price

Got in touch with Horizon Mobility and they are going to get my chair for me.
The wheel chair service lady has been golden and is help to push through the voucher to the shop.

The problem now is that the local CCG has a person doing a voucher that has never done a voucher before
So that will take a week. Then another month for the chair to come...

But the other good news is that they will change the speed to 10 mph for me
I also found out that the 4 mph version of the Meyra optimus 2 can not be made to go faster...ever.

honest dont ever buy a meyra chair they are a pile of crap and not even 4mph tinas piece of crap she bought in a moment of utter madness did only 3.25 kph flat out with the wind behind it,hence my thread polishing the turd trying to make it useable for her,good luck getting what you need from them,peace