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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 26 Jul 2019, 20:17

Quite.

If this is what they offer it really is going to be up to you to demonstrate why mid wheel drive is unsuitable.


Thats easy. Get close to them, and turn. The rear casters sticking out will rip up their feet. Already done that. Tell them that this isnt safe in the pub, you will be killed... Tell em 55Ah batts will last you half a day. And you might want to go out in the evening to eat. Then go outside on your lawn, reverse over an uneven bit till you get stuck (not hard) and let them try to get you unstuck and rescue you. Explain that one of your interests is photography and model planes and both involve grass or awquard to access places. If they say thats no interest to them. Explain what a HOLISTIC approach, and JOINED UP THINKING actually means. Because thats what it says on their own NHS website! Ask them if they have any clue what a powerchair assesement actually is?

And the stupid little casters set off my muscle spasm making the thing a painful nightmare on what passes for our streets. Shopping centre specials. That might noyt apply to you.

Your self assessement needed to have already explained all of this in detail. Leaving them nowhere to go. If this is what you need. YOU must explain why. Then go over the chair they want to offer you in fine detail explaining point by point why it isnt any good.

They will make a lot of notes and run away as fast as poss as you will make them feel like they are out of their depth. They will offer you some unsuitable chair by post.

If not ASK FOR ALL THE DETAILS. And then see what it is. And assess it, return your assessement of their chair. Unless its what you need.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 26 Jul 2019, 21:03

foghornleghorn wrote:You've shot yourself in the nuts by talking to them about the Meyra which is totally unsuitable for indoors. To be honest without meaning to be insulting I'm curious about what you produced as a self assessment and how much of it they can attempt to discount as irrelevant.



No. On the assessment I done. I mentioned the Puma 40. As I already have one and it will cost them £3,500 trade.

She asked me before she left, what in my opinion would be better for me. I told her the Meyra.
If they can't help me. I will save and get the meyra and use my Puma for indoors.

I will let you all know how it goes. But so far so good.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 26 Jul 2019, 21:05

Burgerman wrote:Quite.

If this is what they offer it really is going to be up to you to demonstrate why mid wheel drive is unsuitable.


Thats easy. Get close to them, and turn. The rear casters sticking out will rip up their feet. Already done that. Tell them that this isnt safe in the pub, you will be killed... Tell em 55Ah batts will last you half a day. And you might want to go out in the evening to eat. Then go outside on your lawn, reverse over an uneven bit till you get stuck (not hard) and let them try to get you unstuck and rescue you. Explain that one of your interests is photography and model planes and both involve grass or awquard to access places. If they say thats no interest to them. Explain what a HOLISTIC approach, and JOINED UP THINKING actually means. Because thats what it says on their own NHS website! Ask them if they have any clue what a powerchair assesement actually is?

And the stupid little casters set off my muscle spasm making the thing a painful nightmare on what passes for our streets. Shopping centre specials. That might noyt apply to you.

Your self assessement needed to have already explained all of this in detail. Leaving them nowhere to go. If this is what you need. YOU must explain why. Then go over the chair they want to offer you in fine detail explaining point by point why it isnt any good.


photography is my hobby :D
Point you have stated have been taken down for me to reread.
Thanks all.
They will make a lot of notes and run away as fast as poss as you will make them feel like they are out of their depth. They will offer you some unsuitable chair by post.

If not ASK FOR ALL THE DETAILS. And then see what it is. And assess it, return your assessement of their chair. Unless its what you need.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 26 Jul 2019, 21:11

Remember that they are basically doing tha same as an insurance assessor. No matter how nice they appear they are not really there to help you but to minimise their loss ($) and they are good at it. They are not your freinds. But they are not the enemy. They will fill you full of untruths and missinformation, if you allow it. Be polite, freindly, accurate, knowlegable, for-armed, confident and offer them coffee etc. Just dont believe a word on face value, and dont allow them to tell YOU. You tell THEM! Beat them at their own game. Its quite fun to watch them squirm actually. And dont worry about upsetting them or disagreeing with them. Dont be mrs May, be Trump, Boris, Farage...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby iainsherriff » 27 Jul 2019, 12:08

iainsherriff wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Send them a solicitors letter by recorded delivery to the hospital admins, and wcs, explaining that they have refused your legitimate legal rights, explain what they are, and send them a copy of the bill for your new chair, deposit paid giving 28 days to pay. Send your personal evaluation/assessment giving clear reasons why you required THAT specific chair.

At this stage I am using the "PWB card" as a club to push them into action (ANY action)

I did actually get a call back but missed it as I was bathing Matt so that is progress I will call again tomorrow


We got a cancellation slot on Friday. Matt still can't transfer after his Hospital stay so they sent a Taxi for us. It was clear from the conversation when we arrived, and from the "powerchair expert" that was there with the WCS clinical technician that they has "sat up a bit to my last call. Without much looking at Matt in the Salsa Mini at all they said it was clear there was a better option and fetched out a TDX . Bearing in mind that we can't use the Voucher scheme (as we have enough capital to use it with) and his condition is changing so much ATM that it's not the right time to buy and rebuild the perfect chair for him we are happy with the outcome. I has with me a list of issues re the present Salsa Mini/Matt and the TDX is being specced with what he needs and with a central foot plate, fixed admittedly but his MS nurse is going to find funding to retrofit power.

I find the people at WCS (this is the West Midlands one at Wychavon) almost embarrassed at the lack of action from their CCG and they openly admitted that Matt should had the right to access a PWB and would be better served by one. So, we have a good result (in our present circumstances) and, more importantly, all Matt's clinical needs have been met. I'm pretty sure that, without knowing the facts I have read here to use "as a weapon", he would still be in the Salsa.
Matt (son) is chair user.
MS fairly advanced
Invacare TDS SP2 NB
TGA S4 for dog/kid walking
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 27 Jul 2019, 13:37

Good.

Realise that the fancy sounding CCG is just a meeting in some place after work by a bunch of local surgeries doctors for a little extra $$$ pocket money. Its not their day job, and they are just presented with a list of things to either agree, or discuss (3 sentences?) from the complete NHS system in their town. They dont understand anything about powerchair budgets or powerchairs. That is all done by the local WCS and just presented as a summary to the CCG doctors for approval. So dont let them use that as an excuse. Not implemented? Its not the CCGs fault!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby iainsherriff » 27 Jul 2019, 16:22

They have had the meetings and the CCG know what is wanted ............. of course there is absolutely no excuse for the time wasting :fencing
Matt (son) is chair user.
MS fairly advanced
Invacare TDS SP2 NB
TGA S4 for dog/kid walking
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 27 Jul 2019, 17:53

Of course there is! Its not a business. Its not competing in a world of other NHSs to succeed or make a profit. Its socialist medicine. Theres no reason for them to actually do anything. So they dont. They keep their jobs and get paid just because they are there.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 27 Jul 2019, 18:27

iainsherriff wrote:
We got a cancellation slot on Friday. Matt still can't transfer after his Hospital stay so they sent a Taxi for us. It was clear from the conversation when we arrived, and from the "powerchair expert" that was there with the WCS clinical technician that they has "sat up a bit to my last call. Without much looking at Matt in the Salsa Mini at all they said it was clear there was a better option and fetched out a TDX . Bearing in mind that we can't use the Voucher scheme (as we have enough capital to use it with) and his condition is changing so much ATM that it's not the right time to buy and rebuild the perfect chair for him we are happy with the outcome. I has with me a list of issues re the present Salsa Mini/Matt and the TDX is being specced with what he needs and with a central foot plate, fixed admittedly but his MS nurse is going to find funding to retrofit power.

I find the people at WCS (this is the West Midlands one at Wychavon) almost embarrassed at the lack of action from their CCG and they openly admitted that Matt should had the right to access a PWB and would be better served by one. So, we have a good result (in our present circumstances) and, more importantly, all Matt's clinical needs have been met. I'm pretty sure that, without knowing the facts I have read here to use "as a weapon", he would still be in the Salsa.


If a voucher isn't suitable a PWB won't be as it replaces the voucher scheme. If needs are changing you might be better with WCS supplying provided that you get a suitable chair. From my experience any changes after you get the chair need to go through WCS. My OT wanted to get a different cushion for me, applied for funding but it was rejected as it was considered WCS responsibility be careful on the way your MS nurse applies.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 27 Jul 2019, 19:52

If a voucher isn't suitable a PWB won't be as it replaces the voucher scheme.

Wrong. Bothe are very different. And will run alongside each other at least for the fisrst year and likely longer. Which should have been happening from 2016 onwards, and is your LEGAL right.

If needs are changing you might be better with WCS supplying provided that you get a suitable chair.

Which you will not. Unless a 4mph primarily indoor chair is adequate for your needs and thats very unlilkely!

From my experience any changes after you get the chair need to go through WCS. My OT wanted to get a different cushion for me, applied for funding but it was rejected as it was considered WCS responsibility be careful on the way your MS nurse applies.


My OT (I dont have or want one) has nothing to do with anything.
And thats correct, WCS also provide cushions, and backrests and any other seating requirements. And add this to your budget once you agree on whats needed. In my case a budget of 700 for cushion, every 3 years and a Jay backrest (dont remember the cost) too.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 28 Jul 2019, 12:49

https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... stions/#q1 4th line down "Personal wheelchair budgets are replacing the wheelchair voucher scheme." That seems fairly clear to me. They are different to vouchers but ultimately you will probably have to make your own personal contribution as there is no guidance in the PWB as to how much you get, whether it is CCG cost or chair retail price. That really does need to be in the guidelines for it as they will wriggle to save money.

4 mph chairs are suitable for some, I've got a 6 mph which rarely gets used at full speed as my support workers loaded with emergency equipment can't walk at 6 mph nor 4mph. My old NHS Salsa was 4mph but when I got my R Net dongle and hooked it up I found that it was set to 60%, so I thought that support workers were walking at 4mph when it was actually about 2.5 mph.

OT is from adult social services who get me things like shower chair or turning sheets so 1 support worker can move me on the bed. Being vented any moving and handling involves 2 people which is limiting, I use the OT to get equipment to reduce the need for 2 support workers. Every change to moving and handling has to be agreed with OT, District Nurse and care company because of the risk of pulling trache out or vent disconnecting. Life would be a lot easier without the trache and need for the extra safeguards.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Irving » 28 Jul 2019, 14:27

wheelie junkie wrote:Life would be a lot easier without the trache and need for the extra safeguards.

I can see that :thumbdown:

I've managed to avoid my OT for 4y now! I recently had a small victory over WCS by getting them to send me a new Jay3 gel cushion and cover and a replacement gel for my existing Jay3 WITHOUT the 're-assessment' they insisted I needed...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 28 Jul 2019, 16:28

I can't avoid OT's the missus is an OT in a secure acute mental health unit :) Not a job I'd ever consider but she loves it despite the challenges.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 06 Aug 2019, 16:03

Hi all, wcs have said they will give me the cost of the salsa £6200 as a pwb but they are sticking firm with 20% maintenance of the chair £1200 over five years just like the voucher scheme a complete joke, makes a mockery of the pwb to be honest. I have told them it wouldnt even cover the cost of the batteries and tyres for five years.

So my question is who do i complain to first?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Aug 2019, 16:23

Them. But time is o their side.
Thats not that bad though.
What were you expecting?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Aug 2019, 16:27

Similar to what they give me. Although mines 3 years.

The point is not to give you more money, but a budget that YOU can use. So if you wasnted to add to it and get a different chair, or to use the money to maintain a fleet of existing chairs, or to buy a couple of eBay chairs, or to build your own, or add lithium to your existing chairs etc then its all up to you. You are also abe to buy cheaper online and get areal discount rather that being tied to specific dealers or chairs as before.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 06 Aug 2019, 18:37

i was expecting more than %20 to cover repairs and maintenence over five years, £250 a year to repair and maintain a wheelchair, impossible unless you park it a corner 24/7
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 06 Aug 2019, 18:40

That is what most actually do. Brings the average down. Besides thats more than they spend on average per user in total!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 06 Aug 2019, 18:59

Im not average, my groove has had new motors, pm, controller, tyres god knows how many, arm pads it goes on and on and i finally snapped the frame (-:

I thought they were suppose to do a proper assessment of what it would cost for 5 years to repair and maintain.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 07 Aug 2019, 08:02

So the pwb is pointless, may as well take the salsa of them and buy a 2nd one for best or tinkering with and hammer the hell out of the salsa they supply
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 07 Aug 2019, 08:56

If all you want is a stock 4mph salsa yes.

Doesent work for me. The stock chairs are useless. It needs surgery, wheels, lithium, seat relocating, programming, 120A nd 4 pole 6mph, lights, joystick and headrest mounts changing, and seat dump mods etc, and half a dozen other things at least before its actually usable. And you cant do that to theirs. And then theres no flexibility to keep and maintain it in a few years time as its not yours, or to buy something different, or to build or maintain my other chairs instead. The whole point of a budget is choice. If you only want the chair they will supply and zero choice or any personal input then why do you want a budget in the first place?

If you want options, choice, freedom to go beyong the indoor, 4mph no lights, chair they will supply, but at a decent price with 20 to 30% cheaper off the web, or keep it longer and use the budget for maintanaince or a backup ebay chair or whatever then you want a budget. All that is your choice. Take what they will supply if that is all you want. Personally I cant even stand the grey tyres! :clap
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 07 Aug 2019, 13:12

Typically WCS will agree a service contract with one company who look after all chairs supplied by them so they get preferential prices and will get parts through their accounts with the chair supplier at better prices. So inevitably they only want to give you what it would cost them, same old, same old BS. Get a quote for an annual service and battery change from a dealer and present that x5 and ask how you are meant to service it with what they will pay. It could be unsafe if it doesn't get serviced or leave you stranded somewhere.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 07 Aug 2019, 13:50

Just had a call from WCS nad it went like this.

WCS-Hi we are coming round on the 23rd of this month. And the person coming will be bring a sunrise medical rep with them.

Me- Thanks. What chair are they bringing?

WCS- It's great sunrise Q100!

Me- Hmmmm Did you read the pages I gave in about my self assessment?

WCS- RRhmmmm what papers...hold on.........I can't find them anywhere.

Me-I will print some more out and come to you. Ok....Oh and don't bother with the Q100 because it's not what I need.

WCS-Oh...OK..I will tell the lady when she comes back off holiday next week.

Me-I will print out 10 copies so you don't lose them. Bye

Bloody idiots.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby CPguy » 07 Aug 2019, 14:21

@ terry2: I believe you must be more vocal. What Burgerman predicted is happening. You do not need a sales rep from one brand. You need the chair you want. Simple.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 07 Aug 2019, 14:25

Told you. They dont ASSESS at all. They dont have a clue. They dont listen. They do exactly what they did with the last half dozen "assessements".

And you are falling into the same I TOLD YOU SO pattern as I knew you would. I have a bridge to sell you.

From sunrise RETAIL powerchairs page:

Q100 R
Rear-Wheel Powered Wheelchair
The ultra-compact indoor / outdoor entry level powerchair.
Starting from £2900


Now I personally can get that for 2k. Delivered.
They will be able to get that for less than I can. So about 1500 to 1800 at the most.
Questions for you.

1. Why do you think that its so cheap? Answers on a post card...
2. Why do you think that they ignored your assessements, and are going for this chair regardless. The same basic chair they "assess" everyone for?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 07 Aug 2019, 14:32

That sounds about right Terry as WCS will only be geared up to supply the cheapest 4MPH 2-pole motorised deckchair. :fencing You're going to have to be a lot more vocal/firmer with them and explain why the deckchair is useless!

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 07 Aug 2019, 14:35

Its an argument.
Its ALWAYS an argument. One that should have begun with your in depth personal assessement the day you contacted them in triplicate. Sent to every member of WCS and the hospitals administrators, as well as your doctor etc IN THE BEGINNING.

The first question when they arived at your house to assess you, should have been : DO YOU HAVE, and HAVE YOU READ and FULLY UNDERSTOOD in DETAIL, my personal assessement? And DO YOU (THEY) HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS? as to why I require chair X as described in my assesement?

Then WRITE down their answers very carefully as you all go through YOUR assessement. Do not let them take charge, or change the subject or start asking you their own questions untill all the above has been discussed carefully. And you have their questions and answers about this in detail. Record this if needed.

They will always try to ignoe most of this and try to get away with the lowest cost chair and run away.
You MUST try to get them to do what their remit says they should do.

That means a chair that is suitable not only for bare indoor clinical needs, but also for YOUR own LIFESTYLE including how it fits in with your caring, hobbies, vehicles, etc. So called hollistic needs. Its supposed to be a joined up inclusive assessement to get the best outcome overall. The difficulty is that they present themselves as all official and smiling. You are too scared to argue your case so you dont "upset" them and upset the applecart. I do that before they aver appear on the scene. Let THEM be on the backfoot, not you..
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 15 Aug 2019, 13:56

Just had a call from WCS.
They are bringing a Sunrise medical Q400 sedeo pro with them.

First problem is that it has 2 pole motors.
She said if after talking I'm not happy, then we can talk about the money
For another chair.

So I will know by next Wednesday. Fingers crossed.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 15 Aug 2019, 14:09

Tell them that it unsuitable for a bunch of reasons as you already told them

Then tell them you have a RIGHT to a budget for a chair that id suitable, and to refer to YOUR assessement that they already have and refuse to even look at or consider the weedy chair they are bringing. They had already "assessed" you (and everyone else) for that chair because its cheap, before they ever heard of you. As already mentioned in my first ever reply.

You have not been assessed at all. Your own assessement that you sent them in advanced was completely ignored. You legal right to a budget to suit your clinical and holistic needs and even preferences was completely ignored. And they are lining you up (as they do to everyone that they cannot find some excuse to not supply) the exact same chair that they do for all the rest. Because its cheap.

Low powered, small battery, nose heavy 2 pole, small casters, cheap control system, 4mph no lights.

All exactly as I said they would do. And you are letting them! I would have told them they were ignoring my assessement, and not to waste their time and to reassess me properly based on the assessement I already sent them and hung up. And followed that up with a recorded delivery letter in case they didnt get it. Giving them a copy of the FILLED IN prescription form, all added up with a figure for a suitable chair.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 15 Aug 2019, 14:32

Fill those out for a salsa for e.g.

Include a figure for a centre power footrest if needed. You will need to call sunrise for a price as its a "custom" addition. I did the same for the fancy joystick, black paint too. That centre footrest ads around 1300 from memory.

And add a back.

Then add a cushion (I added a jay2 gel)

Here 2 prescription forms. The total on mine was around 10k with 120A powermodule, 4 pole, and all seating options etc. I was forced to pay extra for 6mph, lights. They covered the rest at their discounted price. I ended up with about 7k.
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