Personal Wheelchair Budgets

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 15 Aug 2019, 15:21

Burgerman wrote:Fill those out for a salsa for e.g.

Include a figure for a centre power footrest if needed. You will need to call sunrise for a price as its a "custom" addition. I did the same for the fancy joystick, black paint too. That centre footrest ads around 1300 from memory.

And add a back.

Then add a cushion (I added a jay2 gel)

Here 2 prescription forms. The total on mine was around 10k with 120A powermodule, 4 pole, and all seating options etc. I was forced to pay extra for 6mph, lights. They covered the rest at their discounted price. I ended up with about 7k.



Thanks again BM.

I will print those out today.

I found a shop in the EU. The Czech Republic. And the Meyra Optimus 2 RS was only £4,500
So I emailed them. Saying I would pay 80% upfront and pay the rest when I come and pick it up.
They said NO. I had to buy from either Germany or the UK.
The Meyra Optimus 2 RS is £7,000+ in the UK. Robbing gets :cussing
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Aug 2019, 10:04

The problem is that its too late now. You have allowed the WCS to assess you, and do exactly as I said they would. You should have got in first, and would be discussing YOUR assessement, with them on the back foot. Only when you had discussed your assessement, and choosen chair, and gone through YOUR list of reqirements, step by step, so that they understood why you needed what you needed, would you progress to them offering a chair that FITTED WITH YOUR SPECS!

Now you are the one on the back foot. Trying to fend off that barely motorised deck chair. So I dont see where it goes from here. You were too easy going, was too worried about saying anything that may upset the "nice ladies" and so you are where you are. Now I expect you will actually agree with them bringing a totally unsuitable chair to you...

I did try to tell you that this is what they do.

You need a well written factual page with 20 or so bullet points explaining exactly WHY you need x y and z things, features, specs, on a powerchair to allow you to meet your clinical, personal, hygene, care, transfer, and lifestyle needs. They are also supposed to consider YOUR choices, and holistic joined up care, lifestyle needs. And then show a chair that meets all of these. Your needs will be different, so do this for YOU!

Then show them exactly why the one they have assessed you for, that they are bringing round, is wrong. Point by painful, point. While explaining to them why they are idiots for thinking why that chair was a good idea. By the time they go home, they MUST understand 5x more about chairs than they did before. And 5x more about why you need whatever it is that you do need. Those prescription forms were for a salsa. But they should be for whatever chair fits your OWN needs properly.

What is holistic in needs health or social care?
All health and care work is about improving an individual's quality of life by taking a holistic approach to providing care. Holistic care means looking at all of a person's needs (physical, intellectual, emotional, social, cultural and spiritual) and providing opportunities for these needs to be met


This is a part of their remit. So in my case, pubs, photography, dog walking (previously, beach etc) and building and flying model planes. Thats my ife. So fat tyres, range, ability to go a little off the beaten track, as well as seat height (lift) to allow me to see, reach, and transfer to different height beds, sofas, chairs etc. And tilt, recline, power legs for pressure sore prevention as I suffer these a lot, and so on. Centre footrest as its impossible to get around indoors with the usial fork lift truck efforts. And more. IN DETAIL!!!

One of the biggest issues is that they just dont understand anything. So you need to educate them as to the difference between a 4 pole, group 24, 120A controller and larger casters and the benefits of moving CG back, centre footrests, etc. Because they wont know what the hell you are talking about. They only know what is the cheapest chair that can have some seating options on it. They go on day courses from the manufacturers and thats ALL they know. So it always ends in a 4 hour lesson. And they go away stressed.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Aug 2019, 10:20

A year or so ago, I watched a WCS expert, trying to program a womans chair as I waited to speak to them. It was a basic cheapo r-net setup, low power etc. It would not turn at all on the spot so she couldnt use the slow speeds indoors. That was her complaint. It needed the torque setting increasing, or motor compensation tweaking in her low speed profile. And a ton of the usual turn acc and turn dec removing too. It was also decelerating so hard when she slowed that it was throwing her forwards. So the forward decel needed drastically turning dow as well. So with that in mind:

I watched in amazement I watched... Clearly not the remotest idea what he was doing. He was "fully trained" got certificates and everything. Been on 4 or 5 programming day courses. He was the expert the "nice ladies" refered to in the workshop. She had an apointment to visit. Obviously he had never understood a word of this training. When he was done, it was exactly the same as before. Only now it had the turn speeds turned up way too high. Still didnt zero turn because that was not the problem. I didnt get involved. But could have sorted that out in about 3 minutes. He was making tiny changes to all the wrong things for 30 minutes and trying it over and over.

He had permision, training, and certificates to buy and use OEM level tools but hadnt a clue. He wasnt using the OEM tool or rather wasnt using the OEM parts that he needed to. Seemed scared to change anything much.
I dont have permissions and they "wont" sell oem tools to me officially... Even though I know exactly what it all does and why. Its a stupid stupid world.

Unfortunately this level of "ability" appears to be the usual state of affairs for the vast majority of users. Dealers, and WCS and amazingly even the manufacturers. Of which about 80% of users do not ever get any kind of programming offered to them, and dont even know its possible. Hence the millions of chairs that cant hit a doorway.

And this level of understanding is why its almost a waste of time trying to tell the nice assessement ladies why you need what you do... They nod. But have no idea what you are talking about. Neither do the sales reps they bring with them to hand hold.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Aug 2019, 10:43

I've seen this before too BM, those so called "experts" don't have damned clue how to program a chair. I remember years back a chair I had was very jumpy and would wheelspin on the carpet, tearing it up. What was the "experts" solution??? Change the PM! :roll: Instead of sitting down and plugging in a PP1B. Crazy!!!!! And yet we are supposed to rely on these people! :roll:

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Aug 2019, 10:49

I've seen this before too BM, those so called "experts" don't have damned clue how to program a chair. I remember years back a chair I had was very jumpy and would wheelspin on the carpet, tearing it up. What was the "experts" solution??? Change the PM! :roll: Instead of sitting down and plugging in a PP1B. Crazy!!!!! And yet we are supposed to rely on these people! :roll:


I have seen it all before. Endless money wasted. But I was using the programming as a general idea that shows the total lack of understanding. And why its almost a waste of time trying to explain why you want a 120A PM rather than the cheap 90A stock one. Or why that needs 4 pole motors. Or why anything. They all think they know about seating and cusions. They dont really, or know much about alternative controls etc. They dont know what an Amp IS just to start with... So how can you explain even fundamental stuff.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 16 Aug 2019, 10:57

Completely agree BM! :thumbup: It does make one wonder how they pass their training courses :eh: And when it comes to doing the actual reprogramming, they look completely stumped at why a chair won't zero turn. :lol:

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Aug 2019, 11:13

I have 3 carers. NON of them can show me by pointing, what 1/5th or 1/3rd full is on a glass. Non could measure a room for sq metres of carpet. Non can tell me what say 20% of a pound is.

What chance is there that these same types of people will understand a word of what the guy at sunrise told them about powerchairs on a day course 2 years back? If the guy running that course had a clue anyway.

I once asked a vry high up tech guy at invacare if motor compensation was used on the brushless motors. He was only working on brushless. Thats his job. I was talking to the one guy that really understood these after many calls. He did not even know what motor compensation was, really. He knew how to set it, no clue what it did or how it actually worked. And the answer was, he wasnt sure. No surprise there then. Also asked at dynamic, as they make the BL controller. And they too were unable to tell me and refered me back to the invacare expert... I gave up, and MEASURED it. The answer is no. At least not as we use it on brushed motor controllers. Or as lenny implemented it on the roboteq controller.

This is fundamental basic and ultra important stuff. Not a clue anywhere.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby LROBBINS » 16 Aug 2019, 17:43

The alternative to IR motor compensation for brushless motors is closed-loop speed control. Tuned properly (i.e. not so tight that it's driving you rather than you driving it) it should actually do a better job than motor compensation, but I have neither brushless motors nor a brushless controller to try that out.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 16 Aug 2019, 18:34

Thats how it works on a brushless heli controller. Very well. You add pitch and it compensates by keeping rpm the same as before. And programmable as to how much it assists. At 100 percent it is totally locked to choosen rpm (pulsewidth input) regardless of load. Which is what you want in a heli. But not a chair. Without sensors at all.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 21 Aug 2019, 08:38

I have the rep from sunrise and the wheel chair service coming this afternoon.

I'm ready to fight the good fight.

I bought a printer and printed loads of things for both to look at. Mostly BMs graphs and charts :lol:

I will post the outcome.

OH my mate said "why don't you polish your replica guns while they are there" :lol: :lol: I'd be in prison hanged
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 21 Aug 2019, 09:16

I think, ou did too little, too late and were far too agreeable. They already *know* what they have decided to give you... And all that now remains is for them to ignore or missunderstand anything you tell them. And they will make you agree one way or another because you are the nice moderate mr average chap. I am not quite so easy to deal with.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 21 Aug 2019, 15:08

All went well.

The rep said to the wheel chair service person that a 2 pole 4 mph would be no good for me.
He wanted to look at the LifePO4 pack as he had heard about them, but never seen on. He was impressed(thanks guys) :clap:

The rep looked around my place and we all had a great chat(they was here for nearly 2 hours).
I told him It's all about the out doors for me. And guess what he came out with?

"why don't you get a Meyra RS" I nearly fell off my chair :D
The wheel chair service person asked him a lot about the Meyra RS. And agreed with him :o

She is going to ask the commission for the money towards a chair.
I think it will take a week or so. I will update as it goes.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 21 Aug 2019, 18:11

Interesting. But you MAY come up against the indoor and 4mph problem. You must make them think you need it primarilly or at least equally indoors. Or they wil send a letter saying you dont need a chair indoors which is their main remit. If they remember! :lol:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby greybeard » 21 Aug 2019, 19:34

Best of luck, Terry. Although you shouldn't need to rely on luck. A chair is your legs after all.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Aug 2019, 10:57

Another demonstration of the postcode lottery of WCS.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 22 Aug 2019, 11:16

Its not so much postcode, but those that do not accept the usual bullshit. And that fight for their rights a bit. Those people get a better result. In the exact same situation.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Aug 2019, 17:26

An interesting development, I hit the NHS about my CCG not giving PWB and they replied that the legislation hasn't been passed and it could be the end of the year. Pointed out that their website implies that the right exists now and they are going to edit the website WTF help is that?? :cussing

I did get confirmation that power chairs will be part of it, no refusing a power chair PWB unlike the voucher scheme and certain CCG's.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 22 Aug 2019, 18:02

The voucher scheme never excluded powerchairs. Some misguided WCS may have decided that they could make up their own rules. But those were never excluded.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 22 Aug 2019, 18:08

I hit the NHS about my CCG not giving PWB and they replied that the legislation hasn't been passed and it could be the end of the year.


Legislation desent enter into it. You are being fobbed off with some story as they always do. Ignore their bullshit and threaten to sue them if they dont do as they are supposed to be doing.

Wheelchair services where told to organise themselves by the boss of the NHS Simon Stevens (from memory) many years ago, including start dates displayed on their own NHS website for many years. And they have simply failed to do it. What should happen is that they should be fired. But this is socialist medicine where competance is not rewarded, but incompetence is. Ever wondered why venuzualans are all starving and escaping their once proud country? Mine told me they knew nothing about it 2 years ago. Until I explained I was already on it for almost a a decade! And heres what I needed. (My assessement). And here was my date for my next 3 yearly cheque. A cheque took 6 months of me pushing them.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Aug 2019, 18:28

Umm, that was from the department who are handling the transition to PWB and tell the CCG's what they have to do, ie appointed by Simon Stevens. Threatening to sue is just an idle threat and they know it, you need to state your case clearly and with reasoning and make it clear that you won't be fobbed off. Until the legislation is passed you can't go legal, they are within their rights to refuse until then and some will leave it until the last minute. It shouldn't be like that, these bodies are meant to support us not create difficulties.

It was first published in 2016, 3 years of nothing
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Aug 2019, 08:04

Umm, that was from the department who are handling the transition to PWB and tell the CCG's what they have to do, ie appointed by Simon Stevens.

And?
What DEPARTMENT?
What transition?
Mine still hasnt a clue, still run the daft voucher scheme, and yet I have my money yet again. WHAT legislation? It simply involved them sending me a cheque. Which they didnt want to do till I pushed them. Legislation my ass.

Threatening to sue is just an idle threat and they know it, you need to state your case clearly and with reasoning and make it clear that you won't be fobbed off. Until the legislation is passed you can't go legal, they are within their rights to refuse until then and some will leave it until the last minute.

Rubbish. Its in public for years on their own website. Thats all you need!

What legistlation? You are getting hung up on details again. If such legislation exists, and I doubt it, or if its required (its not) is all irrelivant. Or why do I have a cheque every 3 years? And my wheelchair services hadnt even heard of it!

It shouldn't be like that, these bodies are meant to support us not create difficulties.

And they do, if YOU MAKE THEM.

It was first published in 2016, 3 years of nothing

Quite. And thats your legal means of making them do as they said.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 23 Aug 2019, 10:09

https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/ bottom line, there has been a team set up to implement PWB's, they know there are different systems in operation. Legislation is needed to force CCG's to do it and give everyone the right to it. Some CCG's won't budge, they know you can't sue. I employed a solicitor and threatened mine, solicitor could not find valid reason to sue. I'm sure that if they had the slightest of grounds they'ed happily take my money to do so. When legislation is passed you will be able to take legal action until then you fight but not all CCG's are as weak as yours, mine is part of a group of 12, they all have the same stance and won't budge, if one does it f'cks their cozy club. They are trying to stop this with PWB but some still don't get it, I asked for confirmation that PWB would include power chair and got it, appropriate parts forwarded to my WCS in preparation for the next fight as they still won't accept it. It is a postcode lottery, it doesn't matter how forceful you are in certain areas you won't get them to move, the only way is to do your own assessment, be clear on your needs and reasoning and get them to listen and if they don't do it reasons why.

That will change once legislation is in place they won't be able to refuse and everyone will be able to access it. It is just taking too long for the legislation to be done.

Fortunately I have the option of using Access to Work who have funded 3 chairs in 4 years, almost a new chair every year, no fighting or hassle, send a quote, explain reasons why and wait for approval then the cheque. Not everyone has that option.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Aug 2019, 10:21

All irrelivant. Mine dont offer it yet, and hadnt even heard about it. But pushing them made them start it for ME ALONE in the beginning. And now they sent ma 4 cheques, and am just filling in my OWN assessement right now, to post them soon. The CCG didnt aprove anything. The WCS have the power to fund any user or chair or any options if they choose. Or you make them. Terry on another thread has just been offered a meyra chair for e.g.

You seem like the typical clubs committee member. All hung up on rules, and stuff. You dont get it. Its all flexible and they can do and will do exactly as YOU PERSUADE them to do. Much as I did a decade back. BEFORE the NHS boss rolled it out across the country with specific dates in black and white on their own website - meant for the public information. Not to mention printed leafelets and examples.

And your soliciter must be daft. Its been on the NHS official websites in extremely clear black and white, to the public, for years. Thats all the legal reason, along with examples such as myself, and leafelets explaining all this that he needs.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 23 Aug 2019, 14:40

You don't get it, not every CCG will budge, you can scream and shout but if like mine who are a group of 12 they aren't going to change, the financial implications are huge. Local WCS staff don't have the power to change that, your cheques will come from your NHS Trust not WCS, WCS don't have a cheque book to write them.

You've just been lucky to have a CCG and WCS that listen and change, others put effort in and hit a brick wall where nothing you do gets through.

It doesn't matter how long the system has been proposed for, if you want to go legal you need rules in place to fight with. They currently don't exist but will later this year and then solicitors will be able to take them on. Currently you have no right and no dead line for CCG's to have to provide it that is what Simon Stevens changed earlier this year, why? Because he knows what he proposed was being ignored just like they do with patients. He now has to force them to do it and make it impossible for them to ignore. If he is struggling to do it with the CCG's who won't move it is unlikely an individual will succeed with those same CCG's.

I've got enough information now to look at getting a new chair, I don't need it as the Ottobock isn't a year old and is customised to what I want but they offered to review my needs. I've got my own assessment plus have enough on PWB that they will realise that if they don't do it now I will be back when the law is in place. I'm betting that they still won't accept it, they want to keep their business of buying chairs going, too much money involved for them to give it up without being forced to.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby terry2 » 23 Aug 2019, 15:51

Burgerman wrote:Interesting. But you MAY come up against the indoor and 4mph problem. You must make them think you need it primarilly or at least equally indoors. Or they wil send a letter saying you dont need a chair indoors which is their main remit. If they remember! :lol:



I did come up against the 4 mph problem.

The rep told her that the Meyra is rear steer. And you can turn the wheels with out moving.
So it would be good for me.

The commission has not put the wheel chair allowance in place here. So the wheel chair service is stuck on old rules.
Yes they know it's not right. But until the commission changes it. The WCS have no choice.

greybeard wrote:Best of luck, Terry. Although you shouldn't need to rely on luck. A chair is your legs after all.


Thanks.

I have saved up a 3rd of the price now.
I'm trying to find someone in the czech republic that can me buy the 8 MPH Meyra for £4,500.
Then I go over there in a normal chair. And drive back :D
If that does not work out. I will have to save more.

I did go to my bank for a loan. But they said no......
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 23 Aug 2019, 16:03

Don't do loans Terry, as you just end up paying MORE! :fencing I've never done loans, if I can't afford something I just save up until I can. :thumbup:

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Aug 2019, 16:55

ppi. :fencing

They just paid me back a myra chair.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 23 Aug 2019, 17:29

Terry, if you can wait do so, as you have found out they have ignored the boss of the NHS and he will force them to change. He tried putting a scheme in place and failed, he will change it. Just politely tell them you will wait and when they are forced to comply start again with your assessment. If you can get a copy of what the WCS person said about the Meyra get it and use when you reapply.

The system is screwed but you can see why they won't change, power chairs are the most expensive item they buy, if everyone gets PWB it will be a huge loss of turnover and they won't get as big a discount on the remaining chairs they do buy. It is all about money which is why CCG's joined together in their own wheelchair business, more buying power=cheaper prices screw the wheelchair user just give them the same as everyone else.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 23 Aug 2019, 19:40

Terry, if you can wait do so, as you have found out they have ignored the boss of the NHS and he will force them to change.


Its been years. He shows no sign so far, because its not in his face, not urgent enough and theres no pressure on him to do anything and has other problems to deal with that ARE in his face. So YOU must get them, or him, to change. By being right in his face.

As I did in the first place a decade ago with the health department (nigel lansley at the time, who sent his personal secretary to my house for a meeting), with local council, and NHS bosses both at the top and local area, and the idiots at the WCS. And again 1 year ago when they told me that there was no such scheme in grimsby. Yet they gave me a cheque, and I spent the money again. Because I dont give up as easily as most.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby wheelie junkie » 24 Aug 2019, 12:48

He has changed it by introducing legislation, he realised that the guidelines weren't being adopted. His original plan from 2016 failed and even the CCG's that adopted it some excluded power chairs. He has got no choice but to make it a legal right to get it and power chairs must be included. He announced this at the start of this year but it takes time to introduce legislation especially when parliament is stuck with the Brexit fiasco. He knows that CCG's are saying that it is too difficult so has put a department together to help them change so there can't be any excuses from them. Basically he is covering anything that they can use to get out of . It really is f'cked up when the boss of the NHS has to do this.

You really do fail to understand that you are lucky to have a CCG that will move, the majority won't hence the legislation, Simon Stevens must be pissed off at his guidelines failing for him to bring in legislation. If he couldn't make them change one individual certainly isn't going to unless the CCG are weak. The majority don't seem to be and as Terry found out WCS are stuck unable to do anything as the CCG holds the purse strings. Once the legislation is introduced we can then take legal action and would win until then if WCS offer you a chair they are doing all that they need to because there is no legislation. You can try as many have but where CCG's work together and thus have a lot to lose you don't get far. They only care about the money and will claim it is cost saving by doing It the way they do.
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