Kilmore powerchairs

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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 04 Mar 2018, 23:09

The reason is simple.
Everyone knows mid drive is better indoors and usually a fair bit worse outdoors. Which with stock chairs, very true. But the reason for that is that every last rear drive chair available is nose heavy and is a foot too long!

Where you universally have swing away footrests as stock, on rear drive, that make it long! Since they must clear the casters. Your legs / feet then end up stuck out ahead. And hit every doorframe, while over loading the castors so it steers like crap... My BM3/2 chairs and now a modified Salsa chair that I just purchased has a centre foorplate added. Allowing the seat to go back with your body mass. So the whole chair ends up shorter, and with a centre plate partly between the casters also easier in confined spaces indoors, and no longer hits every door frame as you turn. And it steers better because now your mass is over the rear wheels, not sat on the castors!

But they dont seem to get it. But a hacsaw, drill, and a :hammer can fix this on many chairs. Which is why I ordered a Salsa. And then reconfigured it. But this is the reason they are vanishing from the market.

(The C350 is too long between the casters and the drive wheels to do this. So is always nose heavy. And only has 60Ah batteries?)
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 04 Mar 2018, 23:22

i did have the option to get a center plate instead with my 646 - you can get it if you ask and prefer it - for me a center plate gets in my way when i transfer - and not sure how i like it keeping my legs closed together that way - would need a strap to hold them etc, with the swingaways i have more flex. to move myself and i sit in a good position - dont need a strap etc,

once in my home - those are the first things off my chair - and stay off till i go out with the chair - i wouldnt mind a center if it didnt get in my way when i transfer - i would give it a try - it all depends how they have the center plate when folded up - if it could be flush or under the seat pan - that would be OK then

but most are too bulky when folded up - makes it hard for me to transfer - or else i would have tried one
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 04 Mar 2018, 23:33

Have it removable.

The reason rear drive chairs get a bad press. Below, salsa chair as configured STOCK. Swing away footrest, stuck out ahead of casters about a foot. And so the seat has to be too far forwards to have your legs at a sensible angle! NOTE that the user is then SAT OVER the casters so steering is bad, and the whole chair is too long. From the brochure:

Quickie-Salsa-R2-Lifestyle.jpg


And the same chair, once a (STILL too big) centre footplate is fitted. Allows the seat to be moved back by 3 inches and the footplate (your feet) to be 4 or 5 inches further back. In this image it can go back another inch or so electrically before the 10 inch caster tyres hit. The new smaller plate isnt even fitted here. But will be eventually. Allowing further shortening.

But your whole body mass is moved rearwards. Now most of the weight goes on the rear drive wheels. And less on the casters. This is the only way rear drive makes sense. A few inches make a massive difference. (yes, no jokes please!). To indoor length, narrowness at the front, and steering. Suddenly it works. This is the same, but more... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... 3-crop.jpg
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 05 Mar 2018, 00:00

What you get STOCK is this:
Quickie-Jive-R2.jpg

Its seat has to be set too far forwards so the caster tyres dont hit your feet when they turn around. So nose heavy. Hard to steer and way too long.

What you need is this
Quickie-Jive-R2 CORRECT SEAT POSITION.jpg

Seat moved back here. By a few inches. But without a compact CENTRE footplate, your feet will now hit the caster wheels... So you cannot do this. THIS is the reason rear drive is dying out.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 05 Mar 2018, 01:24

i dont know why its dying out - cant see any reason why it should die out - its the manufactors who are doing it and making it die out -

they push push FWD and MWD and thats it - also i believe they dont make the seating all the way back as it should be on purpose -

not everyone is comfortable with a tipsy chair - they dont feel safe - having the seating forward more makes a safe feeling for that user - going up curbs - hills or anything -

trust me - you will have many users complaining about that if they ever did that - they dont offer a center plate to your specs - they offer it and maybe you can choose the size of the plate if they have a few sizes to choose from -

making it removable is not something they will do - they wont do custom work - they should thats the whole point - having a chair that works for you - the user and each user is different so yes it has to be a custom chair

the only company is bounder that will listen to you and look at doing it your way if they can do it - they will - but that may come at an extra cost which then insurance is an issue -

the clinic is not going to let you do what ever you like and expect to have it paid for - 646se - P222se sunrise chairs - bounder - and a few others are really not even covered -

by just being able to get those models covered is already a big deal - most cant get them covered - and who knows if i can continue to also in the future -

if i get the bounder i am waiting for - it may be the last of them - then i be stuck with just the 636 chair as the only chair i want - 6.5 speed which is slow to me now - but what can i do - or pay out of pocket for upgraded motors -

or in the end just buy a chair from Tom - if things got that bad - and i am low on backupchairs - i would consider that option - i wouldnt buy one here since Toms chairs are SO much better and its a real custom chair -
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 05 Mar 2018, 02:02

I would choose 6mph over 8. Since you get around 25% more torque.
As it is, I struggle with 6mph motors on grass or if a chair is nose heavy. That extra torque is essential.

And even with 6mph motors the new chair with all the fancy heavy seating, 120A controller cannot get up my 15 degree pub ramp. The extra 60KG of weight over my BM2/3 chairs puts stop to that.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 05 Mar 2018, 04:00

i would also if i were you get the 6 -

i feel very good with the 8.5 motors - remember i am half of you - i little more than half - 165lbs about 12 Stone as you would say it
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby MichaelGass » 06 Mar 2018, 22:00

Hi

I took delivery of a Kilmore power chair a few weeks ago (the orange one in the original post) and wanted to share the initial impressions both of the chair itself and the experience of working with Tom Kilmore through the build.

Some context - My previous chair was an Invacare storm 3. It lasted a long time but eventually the frame sheared and it became necessary to replace it.

The chair:
Performance is far better than my previous 'high performance' chairs. Torque and speed (8mph) are good. I have the seat much further back now than the storm 3 which very much improves maneuverability. This can be adjusted by Tom I think and is part of the delivery appointment which I'll come to later. The ride is smooth and very easy on my back. The design seems well thought-out with near everything easily adjustable with a spanner or an allen key. It is small enough for indoor use in my flat, particularly with the seat farther back but definitely feels more itself when outdoors.

Going custom:
The biggest benefit to going the custom route has been Toms keen interest in building a chair that meets my particular needs. As much information as possible was asked for before starting the build and throughout, eg measurements, problems with previous chairs, specific requirements for this chair (speed, controller, tyres, backrest, type of footrests). Partway through the build the partially finished chair was brought to my home to further refine the positioning of the armrests, footrests and backrest. Following this I was provided with periodic updates (including pictures). When ready, the chair was delivered - at which point I was shown how to make any necessary adjustments, the controller was programmed as required and I gave the chair a test drive. It takes me a couple of weeks to settle into a chair properly during which time I have been in contact with Tom regarding further alterations which are currently being fixed. Going the custom route means the chair is tailored to a degree i've never experienced with a factory model.

Points to note:

Armrests - The armrest can be attached either to the backrest, in which case they move with the recline, or they can be attached to the seat, in which case they remain stationary when reclining. It didn't occur to me to say which type I needed (the latter) and I ended up with the wrong type which affects my comfort quite a lot. Tom is in the process of building the correct type but it would save time and comfort to mention this during the build.

Friend who can use a spanner/allen key:
You will most likely need one of these to make any adjustments.

Completion date - Although I was given a completion date it was moved back more than once. This is I assume for the reasons stated in the original post. Which brings me to the subjective bit.


I think it was worth the wait. Its only a few weeks in but I like this chair. I like that it doesn't try and hide underneath or pretend its not there. Rather the opposite. As a tool for getting around it is good. A smooth ride with plenty of power when needed yet also quick. Beyond this, the best way I can think to say it is that a chair feels like something I wear, all the time, so I need to like what it says and in this case I do. More with this than any previous chair.

Hope that helps.

Michael
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 06 Mar 2018, 22:19

Seems as if its all good - the armrest - that was something that was missed on both ends but minor - if the rest worked out - thats Great !! i am guessing you live there in the UK ?

Toms chairs are a great much better option to any other chair on the market -
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby MichaelGass » 06 Mar 2018, 23:48

Yes, I live in the UK.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 07 Mar 2018, 00:18

MichaelGass wrote:Yes, I live in the UK.


that makes it alot easier for both - now i need a TOM Clone to work here in the States
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 07 Mar 2018, 02:49

The USA has 5x the polulation of the UK. So there has got to be someone doing something similar there somewhere! :thumbup:

You just need to find them. Preferably someone close by.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 07 Mar 2018, 03:05

Burgerman wrote:The USA has 5x the polulation of the UK. So there has got to be someone doing something similar there somewhere! :thumbup:

You just need to find them. Preferably someone close by.



You would think so -
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Seajays » 07 Mar 2018, 18:16

None that I know off, I had to build my own in Canada. I will be getting one from Tom.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Tomkilmore » 07 Mar 2018, 19:59

Thanks Micheal, I try my best to get it right, being married to Hayley gives me a good understanding of how important a powerchair is.
John I think you underestimate your skill set, I have come to realise that what comes easy to you/me does not to most people, even drilling simple holes in stainless steel can be disasterous without the correct tools and techniques. It has taken me a long time to get these chairs to a point where I can offer almost everything that a client needs from a powerchair, and I had a very good head start with your original design. There will be people out there who can build these in the U.S, BUT, to offer a complete package that comes with support is a completley differnet thing. It takes alot of work , from the consultations to the building of the chair to get it right and I believe that any old engineer tasked with building one would come unstuck at various points of the build, I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm just saying that anyone undertaking it would have to be prepared for the possibilty that what they end up with may be a long way off the finished article. When I first started, I considered offering the chairs in kit form, but quickly realised that there are too many varibles to make it a viable option and many people may end up with a part finished chair sat in their garage, not something I felt would benefit anybody, also I think people would get a shock when they realise how much my chairs cost to build, after all they are hand built and not built to a price point. I am seriously considering increasing my prices, but don't want to price them out of the reach of normal people. One of my main costings is the motors, 13kph Linix are now £1000 a pair (and I get 30% discount!) and AMT £1100 a pair. Sunrise stopped providing the groove 13kph motors (which were sold in pairs for £650), and now only sell them individually. so I was faced with a huge increase overnight. AMT have also increased theirs too, I have a quote from 2 years ago at £300 each!! I really need to find a different supplier but I am worried that the reliabilty/performance wouldn't be there. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :)
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 07 Mar 2018, 20:04

I paid 270 each for AMT a while ago. I may need a pair soon, got to look at fixing my BM3. A software error (probably something as simple as a comma in the wrong place) shook one to bits! The cost of development!

I believe that any old engineer tasked with building one would come unstuck at various points of the build, I'm not saying that it can't be done, I'm just saying that anyone undertaking it would have to be prepared for the possibilty that what they end up with may be a long way off the finished article.


I know of a few that ended up looking like they were built in a farmyard, and a few that were abandoned. And I try to warn people that "getting one built" isnt likely to work out well. Or cheap! And once you go 45v lithium, roboteq then it becomes 3x more complex... :argument And the chance of success is very slim. Building a one off CORRECTLY or even getting 2 parts the same so a few bolts line up is all but impossible as a one off. Every chair is a prototype. And needs to be built better than a production line chair with a big budget and plenty of development time. And every replacement part cant be found on a shelf! So it needs to be made. You need many skills, and must be a perfectionist.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 07 Mar 2018, 20:45

those linix motors here are $2000 a pair - its crazy - and has nothing to do with the speed - the slower motors are same in price - if not more sometimes
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby CPguy » 08 Mar 2018, 15:59

Those motor prices are in sane! Perhaps there is a possibility to buy in bulk?

@ Tom: Do you buy in bulk?
My rides:
1 BM2/BM3 with 120 A R-Net and Odessey (Lithium in 2016)
1 SKS Swiss VIVA (spare, as only NF22 size battery)
2 Progeo YOGA (for traveling)
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Tomkilmore » 09 Mar 2018, 23:24

Not yet, I don't have the cashflow to buy in bulk, the ggb-2 invacare brushless motors are £769 each, with the motor controller and master remote it comes to exactly £3000 including vat. I currently get 2% discount at invacare.....so generous.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby expresso » 10 Mar 2018, 00:20

Hopefully soon you get the cashflow to buy in bulk - that should help - its not easy i would imagine - but the quality is what you want to deliver and cost effective -

most buyers would be paying out of pocket -- and thats the tricky part - if too much - they cant afford it - and at the same time you need to make a living also
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Tomkilmore » 10 Mar 2018, 08:40

I have been looking at different motors, anything labled 'mobility' is of poor quality or ridiculously expensive. Industry standard (not mobility industry) stuff would no doubt last much longer and should be cheaper, it's just finding something suitable. I found these at 4am this morning whilst watching over H, and constantly helping her use the cough assist, she has a chest infection. At the same time my 5 yr old has a sickness bug and needs a bowl, then a drink to rinse, then a bowl to be sick, then a drink......rinse,repeat, coupled with a care assistant disaster, things are not easy at the moment to say the least :(
Anyway, thoughts on these:

http://www.transtecno.com/en-en/gearbox ... 150924.pdf

They do a ip65 version specifically designed to stop water ingress, but not sure if it has a holding brake as an option. There has to be a better more affordable option than Linix or AMT. banghead
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby woodygb » 10 Mar 2018, 10:42

You could try Parvalux.
https://www.parvalux.com
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Tomkilmore » 10 Mar 2018, 11:04

Thanks woody, I have sent in a request but imagine prices will be similar to amt and linux, worth a try tho.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 10 Mar 2018, 11:29

https://www.parvalux.com/pm90-150-gb9.html original F55 4 pole was the PM90 and 174RPM. You want the lowest impedance motors, with a very high stall current.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby CPguy » 12 Mar 2018, 11:23

It may be time for www.alibaba.com ;)
My rides:
1 BM2/BM3 with 120 A R-Net and Odessey (Lithium in 2016)
1 SKS Swiss VIVA (spare, as only NF22 size battery)
2 Progeo YOGA (for traveling)
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby CPguy » 12 Mar 2018, 11:32

My rides:
1 BM2/BM3 with 120 A R-Net and Odessey (Lithium in 2016)
1 SKS Swiss VIVA (spare, as only NF22 size battery)
2 Progeo YOGA (for traveling)
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 12 Mar 2018, 11:46

The problem is that most are chinese cheap copies of quality motors that were built to a high standard. They may look the part, but the longevity, strength, or performance / efficiency may or may not be there. At the prices they are, its unlikely that they use quality beaings, or magnets. Or metals in the gearboxes. And freeplay and backlash / noise may be a problem. So yes cheap. But would you want them?
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby CPguy » 12 Mar 2018, 11:50

Does anybody know why the motor prices have increased such dramatically? If somebody is buying AMT at a good price I can take up to 4 prices maybe even more.

@ Burgerman: I will contact AMT and perhaps we can combine our order. Other forum members can join in as well.
My rides:
1 BM2/BM3 with 120 A R-Net and Odessey (Lithium in 2016)
1 SKS Swiss VIVA (spare, as only NF22 size battery)
2 Progeo YOGA (for traveling)
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 12 Mar 2018, 11:52

I wasnt aware they had increased dramatically.
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Re: Kilmore powerchairs

Postby CPguy » 12 Mar 2018, 13:48

I mixed up the UK prices and the USD prices in this thread. Still, I need new AMT motors so I will try and get a quote from them directly.
My rides:
1 BM2/BM3 with 120 A R-Net and Odessey (Lithium in 2016)
1 SKS Swiss VIVA (spare, as only NF22 size battery)
2 Progeo YOGA (for traveling)
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