Sinopoly Cells - Info -

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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jul 2018, 08:45

I cant even begin to tell you whats wrong with that. So I will condense my reply. They are morons. The only thing they are experts in is being marketed to, and hype!

Spec:
Theres NO actual battery spec given at all, only voltages and discharge rates that will soon kill their investments. But there is this instead because all these idiots know is WATTS. Apparently more is better. (Its not but ignoring that)

22,000w max continuous discharge w/ 600a alternator (14.6 Volt ones...)


They are talking about battery power? Then what does the alternator have to do with it?
But ignoring this too, lets do the figures.

22,000 watts, div by 14.6V = 1500A. Less the 600 coming from the alternator.
That means they have a discharge capability of 900A. Which is OK. But nothing special.

Headway cells are 10C. So an equal Ah 80Ah headway pack would give 800A capability. So basically the same thing. Other than the fact that you can make a 90Ah headway pack, that fits less volume as a group 24. So now its the exact same 900 amps. Which they dont actually need. And that 80Ah battery is 13 inches long, so way bigger. But ignoring this too...

The old lead PC15OO at 1/4 of that price has a 5000A pulse capability, and can do 1500 Amps for 15 seconds, and can give a continuous 1150 cranking amps. Beating all of those. And again its smaller by 3 inches. As I said. They are idiots. Not to mention they all think they can hear the difference... I suspect they can hear the cost of all this bullshit combined with the cost of massively overpriced and unneeded super capacitors, gold plated connections, etc etc.

Basically they are paying a fortune for something they dont need anyway that will make no difference even if it was better and its not, because "big impressive watts" marketing speak... If you really tried taking 22000 watts continuously something would melt and die very fast. Thats a hifi system taking 1833 AMPS, at 12V, down the stated
8swg cables... :clap
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby snaker » 30 Jul 2018, 09:10

It is interesting these cells appear in VN. The price for 80Ah and 90Ah cell is $33 and $40 (inc bus bars, bolts, nuts), shipping is cheap and takes 3-5 days. The seller claims that they are official dealer for CALB and all cells are brand new, high quality.
http://lifepo4.vn/
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby foghornleghorn » 30 Jul 2018, 11:19

Burgerman wrote:They are talking about battery power? Then what does the alternator have to do with it?
Because they run the engine while trying to burst everyone's eardrums and the battery is a boost rather than the only source of power.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jul 2018, 13:52

If you have a 600A alternator, thats all thats required. They are VOLTAGE regulated. If the voltage drops under load its the wiring thats too thin. They are not CURRENT regulated. They are rated for say 150, 300A etc. But its the load you apply that determines the current. Not the numbers on the nameplate. I used to rebuild alternators when 18 with an auto electrician. He had a test bench that ran the alternators. And showed me that a 100A alternator will easily do double that if you load it enough electrically, but eventually smoke comes out. Hence higher rated ones are better for continuous loads. Music doesent need continuous ratings... So any time some drum beat during music manages to require more than 600A (WHICH IN REALITY IS NEVER) then the alternator ALONE would be adequate. Even if you had a miserable little 12v chinese motorbike battery.

That advert for the battery should provide a battery spec. (And even those are meaningless, as just like an alternator you can take out as many amps as you want.) As you do so, the level of damage increases with the amps you load it with. Its why we fit large packs. To increase lifespan by reducing C rate load. Not just work out some arbitrary number of watts that the CAR can make, and add a battery estimated max possible output to it. Thats just not how it works!

And even if it was, a 7S 5000mAh 130C cheap Lipo hobby battery, as big as a pack of cigarettes and 100 times cheaper would be a far more solid pulse Amp provider than any LiFePO4 pack. Hence the integra vid. Those little lipos are rock solit with unbelievably lor internal resistance. And this is an old one, just 45C (130C ARE COMMON NOW) Hence


youtu.be/WkKRqaNPIBE
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 30 Jul 2018, 20:30

foghornleghorn wrote:
Burgerman wrote:They are talking about battery power? Then what does the alternator have to do with it?
Because they run the engine while trying to burst everyone's eardrums and the battery is a boost rather than the only source of power.


In the car stereo world of Sound Pressure Level competition they are not allowed to run their engine during the test tone burp ( which only lasts 3 seconds) , just giving them the SPL reading they need, so they rely totally on battery power in which they run multiple 10,000 watt amplifiers to the speakers, usually providing 5K watts to each speaker. The alternator is used to recharge the batteries between each SPL session.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 30 Jul 2018, 20:43

This is a car stereo amplifier that puts out 10K watts, and has a 650 amp fuse in it. They run garden hose size wire from the battery racks ( lead battery racks can contain 40 plus batteries in them)
https://www.sundownaudio.com/index.php/ ... /item/ns-2
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jul 2018, 21:39

Music is a series of pulses, beats. I have a yamaha 100 watt into 8 ohm sterio amplifier here. It can do 100W RMS in theory. But music isnt like that. Its possible that some bits, may occasionally reach 100 watts on both channels at once. And if turned up more it clips and distorts. But to see this you need an occiloscope. Most of the time its nowhere near this 100W per channel level, unless you turn it up high enough so that all the peaks are distorted to hell and it sounds like one mass of distortion.

So even if they actually had 1 ohm speakers, and even if playing test tones to achieve a max output level rather than music, then they could still only need that 600A alternator and the stock battery. Since the alternator can safely put out a continuous 7800 watts on its own. And more if the load is high enough to maintain that same voltage. IF you add a battery, and manage to actually get that amplifier to take out a continuous 10,000 watts, then it would need another 2200 watts. Thats another 150A at their choosen 14.6V. Any car battery, even the cheapest nastiest old lead brick starter battery can do that.

Now playing MUSIC doesent take 10,000 watts, unless turned up beyond the level of distortion you could reasonably stand, so it wouldnt be a problem. For a few seconds. After this time the alternator would then try to maintain the 14.6V CV and as the battery was loaded the alternator would take the load. So it would climb above its rated 600A and eventually become damaged. It would not allow the battery voltage to fall. Its regulated to 14.6V. The same would happen no matter how big the battery. Unless the alternator was protected from over 600A somehow. They are just coils, iron stator, voltage regulator, and big cables. The point being that you cannot take more out of a system, than the alternator can provide, regardless of the size of the battery fuel tank without overloading the alternator.

I think what really happens is that they cant stand that amount of distortion, and play music, so that the actualy power output may peak for short periods at max watts, like on a drum beat, but averages a lot less. I.e. not all the music is 10k watts loud on your occiloscope.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jul 2018, 22:07

In the car stereo world of Sound Pressure Level competition they are not allowed to run their engine during the test tone burp ( which only lasts 3 seconds) , just giving them the SPL reading they need, so they rely totally on battery power in which they run multiple 10,000 watt amplifiers to the speakers, usually providing 5K watts to each speaker. The alternator is used to recharge the batteries between each SPL session.


So they dont want huge LiFePO4 packs, as they will only need a few Ah. And they dont need big alternators either to replace the small amount of power needed for a 3 second burp of tones...

10000 watts for 1 hour needs 10kwh.
10000 watts for 1 minute needs 166watt hours.
10000 watts for 3 seconds needs 8.3watt hours. Which means you took just .56 of an Ah out... You can charge at 14.6V from your alternator at just 0.568 of an amp for 1 hour to replace it!!!

Or at 600A for about 0.5 seconds... But their 600A alternators cannot charge battery fast, because if you only have a fraction of an Ah to put back, then its going to be charging at the end of CV and at very low current.

Likewise, 2x 5Ah 130C lipo, in parallel, as big as a cigarette pack, will be more solid and voltage stable, and rather a lot cheaper and 1000 times lighter. Since at 100C they will be capable of 500A each. So now you have 1000A (with 600 in reserve!) and 10x the Ah you needed. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-bat ... xt-90.html

Told you they are like sheep, running on hype and oversized gold plated wires and other junk.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 30 Jul 2018, 22:19

One battery drains down quickly in SPL competitions, thus why nobody competes that way. Again, the engine cannot be running, only battery power capacity to the amps. No music, just a 50-60hz tone played for 5 seconds, amps and speakers are wired for a 1/2 ohm load on the amp. As in using 2 speakers with 1 ohm voice coils wired in parallel to present the amp with a 1/2 ohm load.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TeNbIz5KzNI

So it's all about the batteries to supply the amp with the current to drive the voice coils in the speakers.

Sounds like I need to start up my car audio battery business. Buy 4 of the 90Ah batteries, put them in a custom case, with supplied terminals on top, have 300.00 in it, and sell it for 1/2 of the 2K dollar price of the current ones.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jul 2018, 22:32

So it's all about the batteries to supply the amp with the current to drive the voice coils in the speakers.


Exactly. Thats why a high rate lipo is MASSIVELY better. The tiny battery in my helicopter is 130C and that means a small one can reliably do 130X its 5Ah output in sheer Amps. So just one, that fits a top pocket, can give you 5A x 130 = your 650A. And it can do your 3 second full power burp, of 50 cycles or whatever, 10 times on its own.

Add say 10 of these, and you can have 50Ah, and can run anything up to 6,500Amps. WAY better than even a truck full of lead or LiFePO4.

And they take up the same volume as 2 cans of coka-cola. And weigh about the same. That will give a MUCH lower voltage drop under load, and so a greater SPL and will run 10 x 10kw amplifiers at a time! Whats more, because of the almost zero impedance/resistance, you really can charge these from dead to full at 8C. So at 5A x 8 x10 packs, so at 400A. In 8 minutes.

Remember that LiFepo4 prismatics are mostly only good for low rate. Like 1C to 3C. Not 90 to 130C! That means you need them to be literally 30X bigger and heavier.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 30 Jul 2018, 22:49

John: you really should write a book on this, and sell it worldwide. I know the guys at Car Audio Bargains who are selling the 2K dollar batteries , and they tell me that there is quite a few competition guys who are all switching over to lithium batteries , so it sounds like they have no competition at this point. So do you think that inside that battery case that there are 4 of the cells like we are talking about in this thread, some connecting bars, and that's it?
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jul 2018, 23:03

I have seen these competitions in my own town, when drag racing etc. They all seem a bit sad to me. Spending a small fortune to ruin a car just to make a strange farting noise a bit louder than the next one...

The majority are young. Dont understand the technicalities. But think they do. A little knowledge is dangerous. But they go to the car sound system dealers and get hooked and drawn in by huge cables, fancy brochures, and copy the often equally clueless competition hero winners. Big numbers, gold plated parts, and frankly low efficiency speakers. You want volume? You dont need more watts, you need more sense! A highly efficient speaker is way louder than some of the car stuff. But they buy by the "meaty", glossy looks huge rubber edges, shiny bits, and big logos etc. A 3db improvement on a speaker, means you can throw away literally half those amps, cables, batteries, and have a normal sized alternator and get the same SPL.. And going to 1 ohm speakers or less wastes more energy warming stuff up that it does making more volume. So more wasted energy. But the real answer needs more volts. Thats not impossible but the manufacturers would need to spend more money upping voltage more inside those amps. Then the smaller cables and gold plated connectors would look less impressive to these car fans...

But I digress... BIG batteries, in fancy colours that are advertised a lot with huge prices attract them like flies. They buy super expensive capacitors, and all sorts of uneeded pointless pretty gold plated tat that says it makes stuff better/louder so I wouldnt waste your time on them. Yes those batteries are just lifepo4 prismatics in a case. And a Big BMS. With fancy graphics, overstated claims, and hype, glossy sell sheets etc. Why no ACTUAL battery spec?
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 31 Jul 2018, 01:28

What specs do we need to evaluate the battery?
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 31 Jul 2018, 01:40

We need the BMS specs, and the cell Ah, cycle life figures, exact chemistry, C rate, int resistance, etc. But its not a great battery as its 13.something long, and only 80Ah...

8X those cheap 90Ah cells will fit into a smaller grp24 planform. Giving a pack with 180 Ah in a smaller battery.

Theres even some 220Ah cells of so far unknown quality, in the same physical size. Remember if you have double the capacity you have half the amp draw per cell, on a given load. So can use lower C cells. But they only need 0.56Ah per 3 second blast! Theres no way that needs more than a small battery with very high current capability.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 31 Jul 2018, 01:50

Looks like 4 simple cells with connection bars for $1589.00

https://www.jypwr.com/shop/lithium-agm- ... y-12-volt/
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 31 Jul 2018, 13:01

True. And not even a BMS fitted. So it is not going to last long!

Also, https://www.jypwr.com/shop/lithium-agm- ... /ft825-34/

Is a PC1500 Odyssey in disguise with a bit of fancy marketing. Thats the same as the old Die-hard one. Its got the Odyssey 2.5mOhm, and other specs, and so its internals. They like their wizzy marketing these ICE fans!
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 31 Jul 2018, 16:24

Burgerman wrote:Is a PC1500 Odyssey in disguise with a bit of fancy marketing. Thats the same as the old Die-hard one. Its got the Odyssey 2.5mOhm, and other specs, and so its internals. They like their wizzy marketing these ICE fans!


Well, that's great to know, you are such a wealth of knowledge, but I still suggest you write a book on batteries. cheers
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 31 Jul 2018, 16:25

I cant. I would go off at a tangent and start going on about religion or socialists or something! :lol:
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 03 Aug 2018, 01:05

When I asked for more specs on the car audio batteries, this is what I got:
Hey Marty, specs are on jypwr.com. But you are looking at 10c@12v. You wouldn't want to compare energy cells to the power cells used in the audio industry.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 03 Aug 2018, 10:14

They dont know what the actual specs are then...
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 03 Aug 2018, 15:16

Burgerman wrote:They dont know what the actual specs are then...


Oh how I wish you would go on the Facebook post they started on this, and confront them, as I don't possess the knowledge to do it.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 03 Aug 2018, 15:43

Facetube and similar are all for idiots... I dont go there.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby steves1977uk » 03 Aug 2018, 15:59

https://www.facebook.com/Jypower/posts/1722325994518304 Apparently they use 26650 cells, you have to expand the comments to see all info.

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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 03 Aug 2018, 16:15

Dont see how it changes anything. But whay does anyone want to do that?
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby steves1977uk » 03 Aug 2018, 17:05

No idea BM, seems pointless to me... Here's one comment from the JY guys which shows their knowledge (or lack of!) for using a case...

JY Power wrote:Mainly cuts down on internal resistance increasing the effective date has been and recharge rates. This is a functional and cosmetic upgrade.


czy

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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 03 Aug 2018, 17:42

Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 03 Aug 2018, 19:32

Yes, thats exactly why we dont use Tesla style Lithium ion Cobalt based (laptop/phone) batteries in a powerchair. Just as the laptops and phiones are dangerous, so are scooters and cars! You wiuldnt want to be sitting on that when the useless BMS screws up and your cells go critical!

Those things can get very exited fast!

But here we are talking about using LiFePO4 tiny cells. They are still safe, but no real advatage over the bigger cells like headways. There are some 20C peak A123 cells available but those are not cheap. Just many more connections, many more possibilities of a bad cell or two. And greater complication. It ignores the KISS rule.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 07 Aug 2018, 05:06

snaker wrote:It is interesting these cells appear in VN. The price for 80Ah and 90Ah cell is $33 and $40 (inc bus bars, bolts, nuts), shipping is cheap and takes 3-5 days. The seller claims that they are official dealer for CALB and all cells are brand new, high quality.
http://lifepo4.vn/


These 100ah cells on their site seem to have good specs:


http://lifepo4.vn/product/pin-lithium-s ... en-backup/
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby snaker » 07 Aug 2018, 09:35

These 100AH cells seem too big. The cells below have better sizes which can fit 16 in a powerchair.

80AH ALT cell
http://lifepo4.vn/product/pin-atl-3-2v80ah-moi/

80AH Coslight cell (86AH claimed)
http://lifepo4.vn/product/pin-lithium-s ... u-xe-dien/

90AH EVE cell (92AH claimed)
http://lifepo4.vn/product/pin-eve-lf-3- ... le-dod-80/

They are all showed on taobao. The prices are just a little higher than taobao. Maybe the seller imported them by huge load. They also offer building packs (with BMS) for free.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby biscuit » 07 Aug 2018, 09:37

Burgerman wrote:It ignores the KISS rule.

What's the KISS rule?
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