Sinopoly Cells - Info -

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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 02 Sep 2018, 23:39

Thats because its been converted from inches... And fractions and its not accurate enough.

24F is flatop. If a chair can use 24f batteries, and these dimensions wont fit they built it wrong.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 02 Sep 2018, 23:47

Burgerman wrote:Thats because its been converted from inches... And fractions and its not accurate enough.

24F is flatop. If a chair can use 24f batteries, and these dimensions wont fit they built it wrong.
https://www.jegs.com/Sizecharts/bcigroup.html


either way dosnt matter what the paper says or charts - thats great to follow but in the end it still dosnt fit in my battery tray that fit MK 24s -

i have the spec sheet in my desktop - so i can use that as a guide - but i wont trust that alone - according to the charts it will fit -

someone would be very disappointed if they purchased 16 cells and then find out it dosnt fit - again it may fit many other chairs maybe - who knows -
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 02 Sep 2018, 23:50

MK isnt as big as a couple of other grp24 batteries. Its slightly slimmer than the max dimentions, and a touch lower. If the manufacturer built a chair to fit one battery manufacturers product rather than the standards, then they are stupid. But we already knew that! Its why I have not ordered any cells till I MEASURE accurately.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby sacharlie » 03 Sep 2018, 00:01

expresso wrote:
Burgerman wrote:How much doesent it fit by?

The grp24 spec says 173 x 260 x all kinds of heights up to 240.



i show 259mm x 167mm for MK Gel specs size - up to 235mm height - for one Battery


Well don't you think the chair mfg would increase the box ID by 6mm all the way around.

BTW MK has their head up their ass. Why the hell do they make the 22nf with top posts instead of a flat top...the 22nf is suppose to be for compact chairs yet they add 1/2 inch to the height with stupid posts.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 03 Sep 2018, 00:08

now that you said that BM - about MK being a bit slimmer - it may be true - and i know for a fact now since a Pride Rival chair which had MK at one time and now they are using another battery AGM - the ones i got also and guess what - they were shoved in the battery box the chair has because they were not able to be removed - its so tight - they dont move at all -

where before quickie was able to lift one battery out of the try and then the other - now it cant be done - so tight together - not sure how they shoved it in there - or how they will replace them with the time comes

all i know is now they cant be removed one at a time as the MK were before -
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Scooterman » 13 Oct 2018, 16:55

Burgerman wrote:
London Marathon wheelchair record is 1:28:57 - a manual wheelchair going even faster than your BM3 could do it in!


Those race manual chairs are very fast. Or rather the ape driving it is. What is that in mph :? 17.52? Bugger! Yes but thats a record. So likely 16 will be enough. Esp if I get in the way a bit on fast downhill bits! :fencing

This is about the fastest (bottom left) I can get manage in my manual chair on a local section of downhill pavement. The average speed is quite a bit higher than 5mph, it's ruined because I have to fumble the phone in and out the bag while stationary at the start and finish to start and stop the app.

11mph might not sound fast but it seems fast :shock: and is a bit hairy with 4" solid castors and twigs and stuff on the pavement from overhanging trees.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2018, 17:34

yes 11, 12 mph is very fast - too fast for most times - i may end up lowering my speed after all the fuse of wanting to go faster and faster - i will end up lowering speed at some point. live and learn
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Scooterman » 13 Oct 2018, 18:51

expresso wrote:yes 11, 12 mph is very fast - too fast for most times - i may end up lowering my speed after all the fuse of wanting to go faster and faster - i will end up lowering speed at some point. live and learn

Can your powerchair do 12mph? If you do decide to lower the speed will you somehow change the gearing which would give you more torque I would guess?

My powerchair is 6mph, which is plenty fast for me as I'm a fairly new occasional powerchair user. Even though I've set the seat as low and far back as possible, and have 10 degrees of seat dump I still feel nervous going down drop kerbs, especially if the road surface has dropped or broken up near the kerb.

My large scooter does 15kph (about 9.3mph) and I feel much safer riding that. I think it must be because of the longer wheelbase and handlebars. Out of interest this afternoon I measured the wheelbase of my Salsa R2 which is 19 inches approx, and the large scooter is 39 inches, so just over double the wheelbase.

Back on topic of this thread, I'm particularly interested in converting my scooter to lithium first. I use it an awful lot for runs to the supermarket, DIY store, visiting friends. It's road legal and big enough to be safe on the road.
IMG_2346.jpg


But I really like the Salsa too especially now I've done some seat mods on it. It fulfils a different purpose to the scooters. It's so much more manoeuvrable and I can access small shops and public transport which I can't with the scooter.
IMG-1516.jpg
Footplate is folded back out of the way to aid standing up.


The Prismatic lithium cells look much easier to work with than lots of Headways. Are there any disadvantages of prismatic blocks as opposed to using the individual headway cells?

For the scooter conversion I would need to make two Group 24 battery packs, maybe Group 27 if there's enough height under the bodywork?

When I was reading through this thread this morning I thought I saw BM mention that he was going (or thinking of) fitting these to his Salsa?

PS: I don't know you manage to sit comfy in your chair for 35 miles, it's an incredible distance :thumbup: . I start to get really uncomfortable after about 1 hour or so and have to stand up (I've not got an SCI and can manage to stand and hobble a bit).
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 13 Oct 2018, 19:04

When you are paraplegic and suffer muscle spasm even when not moving at all, theres no such thing as comfort. Or standing up. We have a choice. Sit. Or lie on bed. And when doing the lie on bed then we have to be at an uncomfortable turn 45 degrees left or right... After an hour or two in these positions your body is crying out to be in a different position. But dont worry, theres a carer coming in 8 hours or so... Stand up? :lol:

So you just grit your teeth and bear it. Day after day, same thing. Spasm causes real discomfort. And reaching for a glass of water can be a choice between more spasm, or thirst. Often being thirsty wins as the alternative is worse. 4 or 5 beers, and your body relaxes and it all goes away and you are "comfortable" for a few hours. Smoking a little wacky weed does the same thing only better. Baclofen, the official cure, does about 20% as good... :joint drunk2

Talking about distances, I have gone from my home town grimsby, half way up the country to the south of Spain in one go https://www.google.com/search?q=grimsby ... =firefox-b

Which is about a 24 hour day of solid hard very high speed riding. Stopping only for fuel about 12 timea, and to pay tolls, and a sausage roll! About 1500+ miles including a channel crossing. And speeds up to well and truly over double the speed limits most of the time where possible. And 3 or 4x the limits in some slower places. They do have speed limits across france and spain, but 22 years back they didn't have many cameras and nothing that could stand a chance of catching 2 fast bikes. The key? No underwear! It digs in and causes massive discomfort and bruising. Just quality leathers. Plenty of fluids. You can go faster over the night time, no traffic. Of course behaving like that is why I ended up in a chair in the first place. Strangely it didn't feel abnormal at the time. It was just what we did.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Scooterman » 13 Oct 2018, 19:20

Burgerman wrote:When you are paraplegic and suffer muscle spasm even when not moving at all, theres no such thing as comfort. Or standing up. We have a choice. Sit. Or lie on bed. And when doing the lie on bed then we have to be at an uncomfortable turn 45 degrees left or right... After an hour or two in these positions your body is crying out to be in a different position. But dont worry, theres a carer coming in 8 hours or so... Stand up? :lol:

So you just grit your teeth and bear it. Day after day, same thing. Spasm causes real discomfort. And reaching for a glass of water can be a choice between more spasm, or thirst. Often being thirsty wins as the alternative is worse. 4 or 5 beers, and your body relaxes and it all goes away and you are "comfortable" for a few hours. Smoking a little wacky weed does the same thing only better. Baclofen, the official cure, does about 20% as good... :joint drunk2

Sorry, I feel probably chastised :oops:

I wasn't complaining, I was just amazed at what expresso, yourself, and others achieve. I was trying to make the point that if I get uncomfortable after about 1hr it must be awful for you guys. But perhaps it didn't come across very well, sorry :(
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2018, 19:20

Yes - Scooterman - i will have to lower the gearing on my new chair to slow it down and get more bottom end power back - i will try to enjoy it first a bit in the summer before deciding but its looking like i be going down that road at some point. other than that - working out the little things during the winter - making a new pack for it and hopefully start using it this coming summer.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Scooterman » 13 Oct 2018, 19:25

expresso wrote:working out the little things during the winter - making a new pack for it and hopefully start using it this coming summer.

Will you use the Sinopoly cells?
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 13 Oct 2018, 19:30

You realize that with sensible gearing it will probably not need an add-on? That tall gearing doesn't just reduce torque, it sucks the batteries dry at a silly rate. I seem to remember mentioning this before you ordered it! Yes you had to try it to know. But I have been there! Got the T shirt. 6MPH chair will go nearly twice as far per Ah than a 12mph one. And have double the torque.

The only way to go faster than 6mph and have adequate torque, or control (for my personal desires and because I know the difference) is to up the voltage, not the gearing. With 24V setups, even 8mph is a step too far. It makes the chair soggy, inaccurate, harder to steer accurately if zooming around indoors as I do, or if trying to get up very steep ramps it just runs out of Amps and stops following the stick. So you lose accuracy and break your leg on a doorway. :fencing

And the heavier the chair the more important this is. This applies across EVERY brand of chair since they are all using the same laws of physics. Of course all you girls that have your chairs programmed back in grandma mode probably cant feel this through your backside. But its happening regardless.

Best option to aim for on a stock 120A limited mobility controller is 6mph, (6.2, 6.5 etc) and 4 pole, and LITHIUM as this allows a bump in voltage with some OEM programming tweaking to allow 7. something mph. With no loss of torque and control.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Gnomatic » 13 Oct 2018, 21:41

I demo'd the 12mph chair like expresso's. The speed is nice on flat ground, but I had to "fight" the joystick to get it to go where I wanted. Struggled to roll over a small tree root in the grass. Hard to control and under powered. I liked the 6.5mph offroad version of that chair better.

Its a trade I guess. But I'll definitely trade top speed for more power.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2018, 22:19

yes i felt i had to try it - i should have given it more though but its done now - let me say this - with stock 646 120 Rnet - chair was decent speed and i had no issues on hills etc, at 8.5 - i am not about 165lbs - not too heavy - for me a 6 is too slow of chair 8 at the very least is comfortable for me .

with that said - the 646 is faster than stock for a few reasons - first rear tires are bit larger OD - that make a difference - lithium also and upping the Volts was the bigger difference leaving the bottom end as it was before - that chair gives me a solid 10 - at times i clip 11 on GPS - but its quick speed should be fine for most.

now the bounder is faster on flat ground only. - i took a chance since its a gear sprocket change thats needed to bring it back down to earth :) at its slowest speed it will be 9 mph - changing out the chain gear set - at 9 - i will be faster than my P222 but slower than the 646 - but at least i will gain the bottom end back - at least enough to make it work better all around and not just flat ground -

i always planned to make an ADD ON for this chair either way - since 100ah isnt enough on any chair - between the ADD ON and lower gearing - it should work out nicely in the end. i may want to just bang it out first summer first to get my kicks with the speed. or maybe not - well see how the chair works with the ADD ON.

i will help but sucking out alot juice all the time with hills will be the biggest issue with this chairs range. its my mistake - what can i say - :|
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2018, 22:21

Scooterman wrote:
expresso wrote:working out the little things during the winter - making a new pack for it and hopefully start using it this coming summer.

Will you use the Sinopoly cells?



i am using same design type of Cell but its not the Sinopoly brand - they are 29mm x 135mm x 215mm tall - i wanted them thinner to keep all 8 in my plastic box i use without having to extend it cut and paste to make it work - but they will stick up past the top and i have to figure something out on top. i think will be easier to do.

we shall see -
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 13 Oct 2018, 23:38

now the bounder is faster on flat ground only. - i took a chance since its a gear sprocket change thats needed to bring it back down to earth :) at its slowest speed it will be 9 mph - changing out the chain gear set - at 9 - i will be faster than my P222 but slower than the 646 - but at least i will gain the bottom end back - at least enough to make it work better all around and not just flat ground -


Dropping from 11 or 12mph to 9, is about 20 to 25% change. I doubt that you will be happy with hills or torque or control, or range at that. Thats quite a small change. I really think you would prefer it at around 7mph unless you can get the seat back a little. Those big looking motors dont draw very much current by the look of your figures and the comments on slowing a lot on hills etc. So likely make a bit less actual torque than a typical 4 pole as we are used to. In spite of the fact that they are 6 pole. I think. So likely quite high impedance. Thats actually worse for efficiency.

Also adding a large battery as an addon, will increase the weight, making it the same as if you were overweight/heavy, like me!
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 13 Oct 2018, 23:57

i dont know but 9 should be fine - actually it has to be because with these motors - the lowest chain set you can get is 9 mph - they have an off road package which you can drop down to 6 - 6.5 7.5 mph etc, but they are offered with the larger motors - not the ones i have - i never asked them if there is a chain sprocket set that drops it lower than 9 - i am going by there website order form etc,

i realized the ADD ON would make it a bit worse - but then consider if there were Lead in there - would be even heavier than the current setup with the ADD ON - - adding about 30 to 35 pounds max to the chair - if the chair had lead - it would be an extra 30 on top of what i add with the ADD ON -

one thing i can and will do first - my friend is getting the same chair - in about a month - too cold to go ride for sure - but when we can go out again next summer - his is geared for 10 - i can get an idea when riding with him - but i decided if i did lower the gearing - i would go the lowest they offer which is 9. to make the best of it -

but i will try to use it first get my kicks with the speed - wont make it my everyday chair but enough to enjoy the speed before dropping it down. have to make my first chain adjustment next week -
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 14 Oct 2018, 00:06

actually this chair i sit in a much better position than my 646 - its much more compact and the seating was offset back as far as they could have done it - which makes a difference - i dont sit over the front end - when sitting in the bounder compared to the 646 - i sit better in the bounder - riding the 646 - i feel the difference with the seating position -

since i never had a different chair to compare it with - it felt normal to me - besides the P222 - but thats a light front end chair - and feels much slower at 8 to 8.5 compared to my other chairs now - i feel i can actually relax when using that chair - no need to react so fast etc, - i have to be more alert with my faster chairs

i do take it slow with the bounder in the city traffic - people etc because its a stiffer chair - and everything is steel - fenders are steel - foot plates steel - much different than plastic ones i am used to - you get much more road feel - sort of like a sports car - you get stiff road feel - compared to luxury car - softer less road feel

and more bouncy feeling - can be good sometimes or bad also
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby garriew » 19 May 2019, 03:33

Has anyone used these?
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 19 May 2019, 06:49

What specifically?
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby garriew » 19 May 2019, 17:18

The ones that are easier to install in a group 24/36 (my chair holds both sizes) battery case.
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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby Burgerman » 19 May 2019, 17:28

There are many.

There are some 176Ah cells, 8 needed.
Some smaller 80, 90, 100, and 105Ah cells, all the same size physically, that will fit - 16 needed. So you can have 210Ah total in place of what you gave now.

But all need a little measuring, seprators for insulation, etc so are not plug and play. Obviously smaller Ah can be fitted more easily, but thats less wise...

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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby hobie1dog » 14 Jun 2019, 22:06

Earth: The Insane Asylum of the Universe-nowhere else could things be more screwed up.

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Re: Sinopoly Cells - Info -

Postby expresso » 14 Jun 2019, 22:35

Problem with those are that they are thick and oversized - the sizing will prevent many from using them in a group 24 battery box - the key to fit alot is the sizing and there a many 100ah cells now that sized smaller and fit in a group 24 -

also you can most likely find them at half the cost - for the same 180ah - may need 16 cells but still will come out much cheaper -
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