Scooter Conversion

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Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 13 May 2018, 19:54

I have 2 Golden Companion 323 scooters and want to use my backup to try things such as changing the batteries and motor to lithium and a stronger/faster motor. Would I be able to get everything I need on amazon and would the motors used on electric outdoor scooters that are popular now work?
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 13 May 2018, 20:37

Lithium amazon? Probably could be done but not the right price or the right way.

Motors? It depends exactly what you want to do and why.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby flagman1776 » 14 May 2018, 15:55

Hello & Welcome! You haven't filled in any location information in your signature, I suggest you do so. It can make a world of difference on this International forum.

Amazon is probably not the least costly place to buy the components you'll need. It isn't a drop in "plug and play" situation. There's a fair amount you must learn for yourself but there are people here you will help you. You'll need to have some basic ability to use tool & follow directions.

Changing motors is a big job and probably not needed. Your present motors don't care what chemistry the batteries are. The scooter's controler will have voltage limits but you can do a "lithium" conversion, get much better power and range, with the same controler and motors you have now.

Lithium is only one component of battery chemistry. We recomment LiFePO4... Lithium Iron Phosphate for it's safety and cell life. It will require a different charging system... any "Lithium" system will... that's not plug and play either.

If you desire more speed, you can get some by fitting larger circumference tires... you might require different wheels and possibly adaptors to do so and it will likely make the scooter wider so you need to be sure it will fit where you want to go.

Again, Welcome.
no longer able to use my TravelScoots
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby ex-Gooserider » 14 May 2018, 23:47

Hi, and welcome,

In general, while there are a lot of details, it is fairly straightforward to change batteries to Lithium. Electronics and motor changes are a bit trickier.

Most non-Asian manufacturers use brushed motors in their chairs and scooters, and the electronics can be swapped on a brush motor system pretty easily, as long as one changes ALL the electronics modules to be compatible with each other.

Swapping motors is often trickier, primarily because of the mechanical issues of making them fit...

However Golden is an Asian manufacturer, and at least on their products that I have seen, they use brushless motors (which isn't necessarily a bad thing....) and their own control electronics. Changing the electronics on a brushless motor system is a trickier challenge as it is necessary to find something compatible with the motors.

For better or worse, I haven't seen a lot of discussion about Golden products on the forum here, so while we can definitely help with battery swaps, we may not have as much expertise on the rest of the scooter.

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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby flagman1776 » 15 May 2018, 02:25

Ex-Goose gave good advise.
My SIL got caught in the rain with her scooter on the rear platform. It was inoperable when they arrived at their desitination. (BIL apparently didn't believe me.) After a month in a heated garage, it was still inoperable... They did open in up & managed to dry it out with a hair dryer. Often water is contaminated & drying might not work.

I would plastic bag / rubber band the controls & then cover it tightly. I keep a thin see through plastic bag & girls hair tie for my fold up Scoot on rainy days... and I transport INSIDE a vehicle.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 15 May 2018, 03:25

Thank you all for the feedback. I'd have people do the work for me. I just need the plan and the parts. I'm open to replacing a lot of parts. The reason I want to keep the actual scooter (frame) is because the dimensions and turning radius work for me. The floor of the scooter fits my medical equipment perfectly. I'd like to be able to do more with the scooter. Right not it's either go 5.5mph or drive my van. Neither are bad options but going say 15mph would be nice.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 15 May 2018, 08:48

You plan on using "experts"? Then i wish you the best of luck. That always turns out well :?

This is something that you need to understand. Even if your experts get it right and they wont! You need to understand lithium cells, how its all connected and balanced, and how/why it charges, how to monitor discharge and cells, and which cell type or shape/capacity/voltage (cell count) to use, just for the battery. If you plan on using higher voltages, non mobility controllers, and brushless motors for example it gets complex rapidly.

P.S. Never found a competant expert in any of this stuff in 20 years of trying myself, and running this forum. But saw many disasters by people getting others to build or understand things.

And theres no fixed plan. It all depends what you plan on using for motos or controllers. Before you can think about lithium batteries and ways to charge/monitor.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 15 May 2018, 23:30

Not sure where you're coming from.

I never said I had experts. If I did I wouldn't even be on the board. I stated that I needed to come up with a plan, which is why I'm here. The actual physical labor aspect I'd be having help with.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 16 May 2018, 00:37

Good. I thought you were planning on farming it out. We have a lot of experience of that not going well.

Reason:
Thank you all for the feedback. I'd have people do the work for me. I just need the plan and the parts.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 16 May 2018, 00:51

Best bet then is to steal the running gear complete with controller from a bigger faster scooter, and transplant it to your smaller one. Preferably a 36V one. Then build the biggest 36v 12S lithium phosphate battery that will fit in the tint battery area you have available. That will not give adequate range, as you are going to need a lot more battery than the U1 that it currently uses. So you will need to figure out what can fit, and where.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby flagman1776 » 16 May 2018, 15:15

I'm not one to discourge but the speed you are asking for is much higher than almost every mobility scooter.
My (discontinued) Pride Wrangler is very fast in high range at 10 MPH (advertized)... It was sold as a PMV... Personal Mobility Vehicle... intended for outdoor use. It has massive batteries.

I'm seen big wheel outdoor scooters advertized that are that fast. They may have a lithium option or be easily converted... but they are bigger (which is why they have room for large batteries of what ever chemistry).

A lithium conversion alone improves practical speed a little because conventional batteries sag off very quickly under load.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 17 May 2018, 02:35

BM & Flagman,

I've been looking around at the bigger scooters with a possible transplant in mind (ideally speaking of course) and you're right they mostly have a 48v U1 battery setup. I'll continue to look for a 36v setup.

In comparing the same size dimensions of a conventional (12v) to lithium, what kind of lithium voltage could you pack in?
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby flagman1776 » 17 May 2018, 03:32

Basically you need to approximately match the voltage the controller was designed for. Fortunately, there are some tollerances so a reasonable match is good enough.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 17 May 2018, 11:28

You are limited to 8S lithium ion phosphate on a 24V controller, 12S on 36V, 16S on a 48V setup.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 29 May 2018, 18:21

What role do ohms play in all this? I was curious and asked the local medical equipment store if they knew of anyone changing motors and they said no and that the ohms had to match up for the motor and controller.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 29 May 2018, 19:01

Not Ohms, mOhms.
Motor resistance.
Many mobility controllers use something called motor compensation. Esp important on a powerchair as it allows a small weak motor to make adequate torque for turning, thresholds etc at low pulswidth, small stick movements. Without this they would not turn properly.

Its a measure of motor impedance, that is set in programming. If you change the motor for one with a different impedance (resistance) then you simply change the mOhm number in the power modules programming with an OEM level programmer. It then gives the correct amount of positive feedback, and correct control. You are talking to people that dont understand enough.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 18 Jun 2018, 21:32

I recently went on a trip to Denmark and could have used more range. So far I've come across a pride scooter that has higher speeds but that's it.

https://www.pridemobility.com/p/raptor-3-wheel

I'm not interested in using a hand brake either.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2018, 22:12

Theres only one way to get better range, on a mobility product. Junk the lead, and replace with 2x as many Ah of lithium ion phosphate. As many here have already done. See the pinned threads. You can easily get 2x to 3x the stock range if done right.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 20 Jun 2018, 17:03

I've been reading the conversion info thread. Do I need a new charger or controller?
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2018, 17:06

You definitely need a new charger, and balance connections.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 23 Jun 2018, 21:48

Parts: I listed the items that you use BM or close to it. I'm holding off on the motor for now. I'll be measure the area I have to play with for the cells and controller. My question is has the technology for the charger or controller changed? Should I be looking at different sites to buy parts?

Cells
http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=21

Charger
https://www.amainhobbies.com/hyperion-e ... 0i/p192439

Controller (I'm not looking for radio control)
https://www.roboteq.com/index.php/robot ... 259-detail
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jun 2018, 21:52

Are you planning on 24V?

If so, forget the hyperion they have too low balance current are discontinued, and dont seem reliable long term. Buy a Cellpro PL8V2.

And you dont need that dual channel controller as you are building a scooter.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 23 Jun 2018, 22:04

I'll be modifying my backup scooter (they are the same)

What do you recommend for voltage? I want max range and speed.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jun 2018, 22:43

If you want max range and speed ON ROAD then I would say high voltage and careful programming. Try that off roar or add too much power (watts) which is easy on a hill or off road with the extra volts and it will fry the motors in a few minutes.

But that extra volts needs 2x chargers for split charging and other complications too. And a single channel controller for a scooter will make things simpler.

Remember that 2x the volts gives 4x the power. And the roboteq is 150A and so thats actually about 6x the power available. It must be used with care. Or heavier higher wattage motors will be needed.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jun 2018, 22:46

I lnow its a lot of pages, but I suggest you read the lithium battery thread and the roboteq thread pinned at the top of the forum over a few days. Becaue theres a lot to understand. And it all matters. This isnt plug and play stuff, and needs a fair bit of understanding. Then you will be able to know what you want. And why.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby aksel » 09 Sep 2018, 05:29

I got caught up in some other things but recently took a trip to Washington DC to do some touring. We estimated that the first day was about 10 miles of walking. I should have used a GPS tracker on my phone to be more precise, but on the way back to the hotel (half mile) I ran out of juice. This is the 2nd trip that this has happened and will be the last. I've decided to scrap the idea of changing motors and focus on batteries, controller, and charger. I'm getting caught up to speed now on the boards but if anyone has any products or if there's new threads I should check out please let me know.
-Andy
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby flagman1776 » 10 Sep 2018, 02:16

As a first project, I really recommend doing JUST a Lithium (LiFePO4) conversion which will require a smart charger. The PL8V2 charger BM recommends is the current best choice. You need to approximate the voltage your current controller uses. It's VERY doable & as he says can give you WAY better range... and much faster & better charging, both. You may gain slightly higher speeds because the battery voltage stays strong under load. Another way to gain speed would be to increase tire size IF it'll fit.

Everything you learn & buy can be used on a later project. If you really need more speed, I'd suggest to watch for a faster scooter which gives the speed & meets your other space needs.
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby shirley_hkg » 10 Sep 2018, 02:36

Or make a 40A--60A add-on . Then you can use it on any chair you need, and easier for novice .
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby flagman1776 » 10 Sep 2018, 16:07

Shirley has a really good point. Others have built LiFePO4 add on packs (look for the threads), usually suspended from the seat back, that connects to your existing batteries through a single plugin cable. You could greatly increase your range. Very quickly.
Just because its a scooter & not a wheelchair doesn't matter...
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Re: Scooter Conversion

Postby ex-Gooserider » 11 Sep 2018, 02:42

As long as you match (roughly) the voltage of the existing system, you do NOT need to replace any of the electronics, and probably should not! The controller and other electronics on a scooter are much simpler than they are on a power chair, but replacing / upgrading them is still going to be a complex task that adds much work for relatively little benefit...

Almost any good lithium conversion will need a 'smart charger' that can balance the individual cells, we STRONGLY recommend the Revolectrix / CellPro PL-8 as the best that is currently on the market for various technical reasons discussed elsewhere. One downside of the PL-8 that is shared by almost all smart chargers is that it requires a separate power supply, ideally around 24-30V, 50A output to drive it.

There are several options for the actual battery cells to make up a pack. It used to be that the Headway cells were the only reasonably good choice, but there are now many other options, which one is best will in large part depend on the exact size of your available battery space. Another major decision is whether to replace the existing lead bricks with a lithium pack or to keep them and do an add-on pack. Some suggest doing the add-on first as a learning experience, but I'm not convinced that it is all that much simpler than a full replacement (although it is less money since you will probably be making a smaller pack) I would possibly consider what sort of shape your current batteries are in. If they are relatively new and in good shape, an add-on will let you get a lot more life out of them. If they are older and close to needing replacement anyway, then a full pack replacement might be a better choice...

ex-Gooserider


aksel wrote:I got caught up in some other things but recently took a trip to Washington DC to do some touring. We estimated that the first day was about 10 miles of walking. I should have used a GPS tracker on my phone to be more precise, but on the way back to the hotel (half mile) I ran out of juice. This is the 2nd trip that this has happened and will be the last. I've decided to scrap the idea of changing motors and focus on batteries, controller, and charger. I'm getting caught up to speed now on the boards but if anyone has any products or if there's new threads I should check out please let me know.
-Andy
T-5, ASIA-B
Jazzy 1100
Jazzy Select 6
Quickie Q-7
Invacare Mariner
Want to make / get a better chair, ideally one that stands.
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