New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

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New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 17 Jun 2018, 19:02

Hi Guys,

I am 95% paraplegic and cannot do any of the engineering work that was my passion until I experienced spinal chord failure. The 2 things I still enjoy and can do are:
1 ) Open water swimming (backstroke arms only). I do 400 M per day in an open pool from November till end May and then in the Mediterranean for the 5 warmer months. I always wear a wetsuit, since my swimming into a bloom of jelly fish 3 years ago. Pissing on yourself does not work. Vinegar and bicarb is the correct treatment.

2) Driving longish distances in my powerchair the Sierras de Mijas in Spain.

I did a couple of years on my hi-tech Alu Rehab Netti CED Rehab Powerchair, which has the Alber regenerative, E-fix 25 brushless motor kit, It's a great vehicle which is now up for sale, but as I use it in a recumbent position the balance was not good enough for what I wanted to do.

SO, as a retired Automotive CAD Modeller (I designed the 2003 Audi A6 with Designer Satoshi Wada), I decided to design a vehicle with real grip and real guts, As John will tell you if you want the attributes you need to stick to an 8 mph set-up, max !!!

So I bought an Elektrokart Voyager , single seater golf buggy and another Netti 4U CED rehab wheelchair and employed an engineer Andy to marry the two together. He took a brand new Netti Rehab wheelchair and took the seat assy. including the leg supports and gas shocks and thew the rest on the heap. He then spent 2 weeks solid, mounting the rehab seat to the rolling chassis of the Elektrokart golf buggy-

We are currently at prototype stage and have done 2 ATV tests. Later today when the sun goes down, I shall take it out for a 3rd test run. It has already demonstrated that 30% climbs both on tarmac and off-road are no problem for it.

The next problem we have to fix, is to redesign the steering, reducing the turning moment on the drop arm and increasing it on the king-pin brackets. This effectively reduces the turning diameter, but lightens the steering by reducing the gearing of the conversion from rotary to linear motion.

https://www.learningalias.com/showmod.php?m=177&t=26

best regards cheers

grazy1949
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby sacharlie » 17 Jun 2018, 20:41

Nice looking gokart!
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jun 2018, 20:58

It appears to lack suspension, and usually a lot of travel is needed on off road or all terrain surfaces.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 17 Jun 2018, 21:05

Thanks, I have done three mixed on and off-road trips, taking in plenty of 20-30% ramps and the 2 12v 75 Ah batteries are still going. The Elektrokart Voyager has regenerative braking, which is something I really love about it. It feels very safe and very stable and climbs short steeeeeeep ramps, like they are not there. On longer climbs it slows to around 4 mph, which I suppose is quite normal. I really love driving it , as I am an ex. Motocrosser, hence I love to go off road. It's a prototype, so there are plenty of refinements required. eg: I just discovered there is nowhere that I can reach to plug the charger in. Also we need to try for a simple solution to the heavy steering. This is caused by extending the chassis and locating 56 lg of batteries further forward, which helps stability on steep climbs, but comes at the price of heavy steering.

best regards

graham cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jun 2018, 21:14

And reduced traction as soon as you find any wet grass/mud type slippery ground. And without suspension each rear wheel will be loaded differently or not at all?

Also, every wheelchair or scooter has regenerative deceleration. The energy has to go somewhere. But you will only gat about half that 70Ah of lead before it stops. And off road murders batteries. Even flat grass fields reduce range by more than half. In my BM2 chair I can easily kill a set of lead batteries in under an hour on the beach at the sea line.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 17 Jun 2018, 22:21

Thanks for the quick reply. I learn a lot form you. I didn't know that the energy from breaking was always recycled. I suppose I just thought it went to ambient as lost heat.

I will take your advice and take great care on wet grass of mud.

I am not a fan of lead acid at all. but they came with the buggy, so I'll use them till them die on me and then I'll go over to a 24v 75Ah hand built battery using, Headway cells. What battery configuration would you suggest? The motors are dual brush 24v 480w 20 Amp.

regards cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jun 2018, 22:41

For a bunch of reasons you need to replace 75Ah lead with MORE Ah than you remove.

To not do so means you will miss out on the improved energy density that lithium allows. Which is the whole point. And will not take advantage of the increased lifespan possible. Lithium hated high discharge rates, and being full, or empty. So a large pack means you charge less frequently, and work each cell less hard.

For EG one of my chairs uses 120Ah lithium, the new chair I just aquired will be getting 180Ah. The smallest pack that makes any sense is about 90Ah as used by expresso in new york.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby shirley_hkg » 18 Jun 2018, 05:58

It seems you are using Ackerman steering , instead of differential steering .

Why not use differential axles ? They have high/low gears too . :ebay

Around US$ 90 --- 200 .
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby ex-Gooserider » 19 Jun 2018, 00:09

Nice rig...

On the other extreme, here is a recent test video of the prototype Kart version of the WheelChairHoverBoard project, with my friend and the project starter Erik Kondo driving....

https://player.vimeo.com/video/275481236

Not as fancy, but will have the big advantage of low cost, and relatively easy transport...

We are also making a different version for use with manual chairs - a way to have much fun and power assist that is lighter, simpler and easier than the current offerings.....
T-5, ASIA-B
Jazzy 1100
Jazzy Select 6
Quickie Q-7
Invacare Mariner
Want to make / get a better chair, ideally one that stands.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 25 Jun 2018, 00:39

Burgerman wrote:For a bunch of reasons you need to replace 75Ah lead with MORE Ah than you remove.

To not do so means you will miss out on the improved energy density that lithium allows. Which is the whole point. And will not take advantage of the increased lifespan possible. Lithium hated high discharge rates, and being full, or empty. So a large pack means you charge less frequently, and work each cell less hard.

For EG one of my chairs uses 120Ah lithium, the new chair I just aquired will be getting 180Ah. The smallest pack that makes any sense is about 90Ah as used by expresso in new york.


Thanks ! There is a lot of valuable info here, which I will take on board when my Lead Acid batteries need replacing. Can you tell me the approximate cost of building a 120Ah/ 180Ah. lithium cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 25 Jun 2018, 00:43

shirley_hkg wrote:It seems you are using Ackerman steering , instead of differential steering .

Why not use differential axles ? They have high/low gears too . :ebay

Around US$ 90 --- 200 .


Hi, Shirley I just love the whole set up of the differential axle. Can you please give me more info on prices and where I could source 1 for my next project
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby shirley_hkg » 25 Jun 2018, 03:21

They are all over " taobao " .
1500W motor plus rear axle completed with high/low gear shift is US $120.00 , and others lowest as $60.00.

Can be very short wheelbase.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby shirley_hkg » 25 Jun 2018, 03:40

Juat like ordinary auto parts but at a steal price .

:coolphotos goodpost givebeer
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 25 Jun 2018, 09:27

Track. Width.
Wheelbase. Length.

Can be very short wheelbase.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 26 Jun 2018, 00:14

shirley_hkg wrote: They are all over " taobao " .
1500W motor plus rear axle completed with high/low gear shift is US $120.00 , and others lowest as $60.00.

Can be very short wheelbase.


Hi Shirley,

As I don't speak Chinese. Can I change the https://world.taobao.com/ to English display?


thanks , graham cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 26 Jun 2018, 00:22

grazy+1949 wrote:
shirley_hkg wrote: They are all over " taobao " .
1500W motor plus rear axle completed with high/low gear shift is US $120.00 , and others lowest as $60.00.

Can be very short wheelbase.


Hi Shirley,

As I don't speak Chinese. Can I change the https://world.taobao.com/ to English display?

Please can you give me the URL of the page you are quoting from?


thanks , graham cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 26 Jun 2018, 16:47

Here are pics taken today of the IncapMovil Paraplegic EV ATV Buggy WIP:

https://www.learningalias.com/showmod.php?m=182&t=26

The performance is perfect for my current needs. I have gone from 4 mph to a much nicer 8 mph. I love nature and any faster I would miss the views and the sightings of the animal life. The vehicle pulls up 30% inclines with ease and is very stable. The 4 inch front and 6 inch rear tyres, give fantastic grip. We have used 5 psi floating tyres, which give enough suspension for how I intend to use it.

Our current task is to fit a carrying basket at the front into which I can throw my wetsuit, a locker on the RHS for my valuables, when I'm out in the Med. swimming, a folding rear mounted bedchair and another storage box at the rear. Them alu lighting boards front and back.

I hope to test drive the prototype on the beach on Sunday the firs of july.

cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 28 Jun 2018, 01:37

[YouTube][/YouTube]Our EV ATV Paraplegic Powerchair is still undergoing intense development. We have run out of budget, but decided to carry on with the project and carry on paying Andy, our fantastic engineer to complete the prototype. Still a WIP Andy is building 3 storage compartments and will be painting the vehicle. We are going to miss our deadline of 1 July, for my first trip to Doggie Beach near Fuengirola castle. That date has slipped to Wednesday 4 th.

If your interesting in making a small donation to help with this project. Here's the link:

https://youtu.be/5PykPDeg5V0

Here are some shots from today:


youtu.be/5PykPDeg5V0

best regards

graham bullock
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 28 Jun 2018, 01:42

If you are interested in donating towards this project, here's the link for Go Fund Me:

https://www.gofundme.com/graham039s-paraplegic-EV-ATV

All donations no matter how small are most welcome.

Thank you

Graham Bullock cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 28 Jun 2018, 09:19

Thats not a powerchair. Its a scooter/go cart.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby shirley_hkg » 29 Jun 2018, 14:22

grazy+1949 wrote:
shirley_hkg wrote:It seems you are using Ackerman steering , instead of differential steering .

Why not use differential axles ? They have high/low gears too . :ebay

Around US$ 90 --- 200 .


Hi, Shirley I just love the whole set up of the differential axle. Can you please give me more info on prices and where I could source 1 for my next project

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1 ... 6782632008

https://shop124947738.taobao.com/catego ... 5%C0%E0#bd

Too many to list them all . banghead
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 29 Jun 2018, 21:02

Because to us westerners the site is all hiroglyfics... (I know I cant spell) And as understandable as an egyption pyramid. And theres no ENGLISH button! :cussing
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 04 Jul 2018, 23:11

Burgerman wrote:Because to us westerners the site is all hiroglyfics... (I know I cant spell) And as understandable as an egyption pyramid. And theres no ENGLISH button! :cussing

I'll email them and hopefully someone will get back to me in English. cheers
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby shirley_hkg » 08 Jul 2018, 11:49

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=20 ... 4b8425c5f5

Get this US$2,200 FOUR-wheel-drive and convert it to electric . Better than acquiring parts seperately. :clap drunk2
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby shirley_hkg » 08 Jul 2018, 12:48

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1 ... 1531047344

drunk2 Electric carts are one-fifth the price tag , but rear wheel drive only ; with and without suspension . cheers

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=20 ... 9980057210
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby grazy+1949 » 09 Aug 2018, 16:15

shirley_hkg wrote: They are all over " taobao " .
1500W motor plus rear axle completed with high/low gear shift is US $120.00 , and others lowest as $60.00.

Can be very short wheelbase.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby MichaelB » 09 Aug 2018, 17:33

There are already a few off road chairs (go karts/scooters) around Boma, Quadrix, Terrain Hopper that have working suspension and can be used in relatively technical terrain. I've been redesigning my Boma front suspension and it isn't easy, castor, camber and bump steer combine to make what should be easy difficult. Currently using air spring mountain bike shocks but with little weight over the front I can't get them soft enough to work properly.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 09 Aug 2018, 17:41

There are already a few off road chairs


They are not chairs! Any more than my van is a "chair"... Or a quad bike is a chair. They are scooters or buggies but wheelcairs they are not! And there are thousands of such things. Almost all are hopeless off road because they use batteries which are inadequate off road in performance, and too heavy, and most attempt to use wheelchair control systems which are nowhere near adequate off road and which already struggle with casters indoors on a carpet!
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby MichaelB » 10 Aug 2018, 14:24

They are legally classed as class 3 wheelchairs. This allows them to use public rights of way off road, a go kart or buggy can't do this. How you see them is your personal opinion which no-one else is concerned with but you are entitled to it. Luckily the law doesn't see them as anything other than a wheelchair.

Personally I use mine to get to places a normal chair couldn't get close, it allows me to continue to enjoy mountain biking albeit in a different way. Lots of mods needed inc upgrading batteries to LiFeP04, suspension and steering. Lots to learn chin steering off road and quirks of using a wheelchair control system which has many limitations but considering the limitations of no hand use allow a degree of freedom that you simple can't have in a normal wheelchair.

Just another tool to have in the garage along with many other chairs needed for specific jobs.
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Re: New off-road paraplegic scooter prototype test

Postby Burgerman » 10 Aug 2018, 14:33

Have you seen my black wheelchair? Its meant to get disabled users around outside too. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... medium.jpg

Lets see you eat a meal, go into a disabled loo, or sit at a computer in your "wheelchair"... Makes no sense. What you have done is fit wheelchair motors to a gokart with no suspension. And as such the stock wheelchair power module and joystick wont work because its a gokart. And it needs a single channel scooter controller because it steers the same way all scooters or gokarts do. Is this a wheelchair? Why not? https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1 ... 1531047344
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