60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 14 Jul 2018, 23:07

well i learned my lesson - i want to see how they are in use - i will make a new connector also - not that it will make the difference but cant hurt

i want to connect it to the chair on monday and use it - i be very wary purchasing these kind again if having to do a Full chair with them this way

unless Brand New - which what i was told - i would use Sinopoly brand new - if i wanted this kind of shape in cells - its only 100ah though -

unless you can get them dirt cheap and take a chance - but the work involved to do a whole chair - i would be very upset - if they were half ass cells when all done -

i like the shape of these cells and easier to make the pack - i had to do something and i did want to try this kind of Cell - but not giving my headways over these anytime soon - even if i can fit 150ah instead of 105ah - not worth it if out of that 150ah - you may get 130ah in the end -

ordering 8 more headways 15ah - and make the 30ah pack to 45ah pack as i first wanted - - better to have a good solid 45ah headway over half ass cells and not much more anyway -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 14 Jul 2018, 23:14

IF i want to change the connector for Cell 3 -

do i need to change out 3 connectors or just one ?

since cell 2 is connect to Cell 3 and Cell 3 to Cell 4 -

do i change them all out or can i just change out the one from Cell 3 to Cell 4 - one connector ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jul 2018, 23:39

It will make no difference. You can prove that by swapping a few around.

Wouldnt worry, its still a decent 50Ah addon.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 14 Jul 2018, 23:49

Burgerman wrote:It will make no difference. You can prove that by swapping a few around.

Wouldnt worry, its still a decent 50Ah addon.



i see - didnt think of swapping them to see - I feel my connectors werent the best fit - making me think if it had a better fit - less IR - maybe could make that difference ?

doing my best -

now i cant no longer trust those kind of cells i find - 75ah 80ah etc, -

when the charge ends - the Cap In figure - you minus some from that figure to give you an more accurate figure ? how much do you deduct - ? 5ah or 10ah ? etc,

its going at 42ah Cap in - at 27 V should be done by 8pm
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jul 2018, 23:55

i see - didnt think of swapping them to see - I feel my connectors werent the best fit - making me think if it had a better fit - less IR - maybe could make that difference ?
Wont make ANY difference iif they were soldered. And tight.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 00:05

oK so no use in even doing the extra work then -

now why do you think it wont make a difference ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 00:14

Because solder makes it into one low resistance lump. If you measure resistance every one will be so low that you cant actually measure it.At least reliably. And lower than the cells themselves. The resistance between the bolts / nits and terminal will be greater. So check they are tight. But dont go mad!!!
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 00:26

ok i will check again when all done -

they were tight for sure - but the flat washer i have is bit larger OD than i liked to have - with the balance ring terminals under it -

maybe i should rearrange that cell - the order i have them on that one - i could put the balance wire first then the connector with a larger contact -

then the flat washer and lock washer - finally tighten it down -

all my girls like the new pack better - cleaner neater looking with less to do - all connections on top - and i like it also - its at 51ah Cap in and still more to go - i wont be surprised if i get about 65ah Cap in - it seems to be heading that way - which cant be a bad thing
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 02:10

Ok just about done - not much more will be added its a bit short of 60ah cap in - which i guess is more on par with 50 to 55ah useful pack

giving that i use my chair today and it charged up full with 50ah returned - i did about 18 miles -


now the new ADD ON returned 59ah - more than i did with the chair today with both lead and 30ah ADD ON combined -

so realistitly - i may be looking at about 80ah useful power when i add the new 60ah ADD ON along with Lead combined - i should be able to get about 8 extra miles i think - somewhere in the 28 mile range when all said and done -

i could be wrong - i will have to test it riding and use my phone GPS to track the miles - best i can do -

the lowest volt for my chair now is 24.6V when i hit 3V on my cells -

the 60ah pack when i discharged to 2.9V showed 24.1V - when i connect it to the chair - it should be at least that much before i should stop -

i will carry the volt meter i made to check when i am out - but i notice the green light on the JS -- once the very first one goes out - they drop fast so you want be half way at at least before the first Green light goes out to be safe - -

a bit disappointed - i feel cheated somewhat - not being brand new cells as i believed i was getting - but could have been much worse also - cant wait to try it on monday - plan to use it all up
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 02:15

ok just finished - this is the first full charge of the 60ah pack

its a bit short of Ah returned but i guess could have been worse - have to see how it works in real usage
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 02:25

You cant really measure capacity by what is put back.Since the balancer wastes some. And since some packs are more efficient than others. You measure it by what you get out.

But we know thats around 46 to 50Ah max. Cell 3 is definitely a little different to the others.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 02:34

i do have a 4 discharge graph - which shows about 9ah removed also which i didnt add to the mix before - i am NOT sure if it needed to be added to total discharge or if its part of the 12ah discharge graph -

i posted 3 discharge graphs which i believe were the total - but i have a 4th one - not sure if i had to add this amount also or its just a snap of the same 12ah total graph
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 02:37

i unscrewed Cell 3 - i noticed the balance cable ring terminal was a bit roughed up - when it was tighten - i changed the order which i had it and placed it first - then the connector - then flat washer , lock washer and tighten it down good -

would a balance wire ring terminal give this kind of Neg. effect ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 02:44

after i changed the balance cable - the order which i had it - i monitored it for a moment - not sure if it made a difference or what

but now Cell 3 shows the strongest of them all ? :?

i guess this cant be a bad thing then ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 02:55

fter i changed the balance cable - the order which i had it - i monitored it for a moment

Not sure what you mean. Theres only one correct way. Or you get no work, or smoke! A bad connection is possible.

If you charge all to 3.600v and then wait, all will fall to 3.45 ish volts in time, and all will be still full. And all will take different lengths of time to do so. So I dont think you swapping things made a difference. You are seeing the others drop.

Swapping from FMA to XH/XE wiring mode for the nodes in OPTIONS tab may make a small difference.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby shirley_hkg » 15 Jul 2018, 03:27

It's quite good that you have a cutoff volt @24.1V . We are over worried .

Don't know how much is still unused in your MK gel at this volt , as that will be wasted ..

Looks worthwhile to redo the bus bar , or to do a thorough cleaning of connection 3 . Sandpaper them a bit , wipe them clean , and contact cleaner before bolt them together . :thumbup:
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 03:46

thanks for the suggestions -

i know my explaining is confusing sometimes - but let me see if i can explain what i mean again

the order which i added the balance rings - buss wiring and flat washer lock washer etc, wasnt in good order - i re arranged the order and i noticed the balance wire rings are a bit roughed up

the way i had them was the buss connector first - then flat washer - then balance wire ring and lock washer - screwed it down - but i dont think that gave a great over all connection because the flat washer OD is bigger than i liked it to be - didnt seem as flush when all tighten down -

NOW what i did was - put the balance wire ring first then the buss connector wire ring over it - then the flat washer and lock washer and tighten it down

this gave a better connection flat tight - before it didnt as much becaue the balance wire ring interfered - during this process i may have even damaged the balance wiring - if its not good now or worse than before - then i know its the balance wiring and will have to redo the balance wiring - :(

will connect and monitor and see
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 03:55

Throw away the lock washers. They make bad connection. Just a plain washer under the nut.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 04:33

i re done them -

the graph pretty much is the same as before i think - the ONLY difference from the first time i checked the wiring and changed the order on Cell 3

now its the highest Cell - that made a difference on Cell 3 - the rest - didnt seem to change after fixing the order

the Balance wire rings - are roughed up from having in the previous order since it was squashed under the lock washer - only flat washer i could find was these and the OD of the washer is bigger than i wanted -

if they were small thinner OD - would have been much better -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 04:39

Burgerman wrote:Throw away the lock washers. They make bad connection. Just a plain washer under the nut.



i can try that also - get rid of all the washers - like i did with the headways - no washers at all - just locktite and screw it down -

you think that would make a difference in a good way ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 05:40

removed the lock washers and yes i feel its better without - the less the better - i added a touch of locktite and tighten all down again with just flat washers

i am curious now - so i started a discharge again - this time i will leave it till it ends - most likely tomorrow evening - things like this drive me crazy - i feel i want to know - Cell 3 is the best one now -

maybe i get more out of the pack this way - i want to get it going for monday - in the winter - i may remove the wiring - replace new balance wire and ring ends - - new buss connector wiring and maybe just get those nylon screws - and dont use any locktite - or lock washers at all

if i can find flat washers 10mm but smaller OD size would be better - shop is closed - hopefully i can report back with better news tomorrow -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 07:13

It will be the same. You are just seeing the voltage drop after charge ends... Cell 3 drops slowest.

But a full curve without break in the middle will look better and they will appear closer together. But same Ah capacity about 47. Or 1 either way.

You get more at a higher discharge rate, because ithium improves with temperature and discharging faster warms them up. But only by 2 or 3Ah. And a little more if you discharge lower. But dont! :worship

All thats happened is the chinese are using special chinese Ah for marketing purposes. (Or possibly older stock 60Ah cells. Or used.) Tell me. Is the case negative, positive, or floating and disconnected?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Gnomatic » 15 Jul 2018, 16:59

expresso those charge graphs look improved already, Maybe do another discharge (a single session to 2,9v) and charge again. Maybe things tighten up even more.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 17:13

Gnomatic wrote:expresso those charge graphs look improved already, Maybe do another discharge (a single session to 2,9v) and charge again. Maybe things tighten up even more.



i decided to do just that - last night - i removed the lock washers - added a touch of locktite and redid it again with the balance wire ring first all the way on the bottom - then my buss connector rings over it - this helps with the flat washer to sit on a larger surface - and tighten it down - its the best its going to be right now unless i redo all buss connector wiring and new balance wire -

and i may do just that in the winter time - if i feel up to it - i started the discharge last night and leaving it till its done about 7 pm tonight - i checked it this morning - was 9 hours in with 34ah Cap out and the graph looked much better also - still a tad weaker but very close - well see later when it starts to drop faster - when and how fast -

curious to see the Volt cut off again and how much was discharged - last time it was 24.1V at 2.9V lowest cell - isnt too bad - i want to really test it on the chair tomorrow - but now it may Rain so not sure when i get a chance
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 17:16

Burgerman wrote:It will be the same. You are just seeing the voltage drop after charge ends... Cell 3 drops slowest.

But a full curve without break in the middle will look better and they will appear closer together. But same Ah capacity about 47. Or 1 either way.

You get more at a higher discharge rate, because ithium improves with temperature and discharging faster warms them up. But only by 2 or 3Ah. And a little more if you discharge lower. But dont! :worship

All thats happened is the chinese are using special chinese Ah for marketing purposes. (Or possibly older stock 60Ah cells. Or used.) Tell me. Is the case negative, positive, or floating and disconnected?


i dont know what the case is - Neg. Pos etc, - how would i test to know ? but not looking to trash it by accident now - :)
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 18:12

Multimeter set to volts.

Pos terminal to case = 3.3 volts then the case is negative.
Neg terminal set to volts = 3.3v the cae is positive. Unlikely.

Neg terminal to case = 0 volts then the case is either negative or floating.
Same with positive...

Neg terminal to case set to Ohms, is very low like 0.1 ohm then the case is negative.
pos terminal to case set to ohms, as above the case is positive.
Either terminal to case set to ohms is high, like thousands of ohms, the case is not connected. And no insulation was needed.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 18:33

nothing is exposed now just posts have tape on them not fully

but still dont get it :oops: i have to touch the post pos. only with the pos. end volt meter ? thats it ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 18:41

No. Case, and a terminal.

No electrical circuit or electricity measurement, or switch or anything else can ever work down 1 wire.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Jul 2018, 18:52

Ok cant be done - there is nothing exposed at all other than the top posts with tape on them -

but if i did - pos to the pos post and neg. to the case ? and that would tell me if the case is Neg. ?

if i was able to do it -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jul 2018, 19:24

yep
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