60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 16 Jul 2018, 23:20

Ok first Run - i ran it down to the end - not too bad - got me thinking now about replacing Cell 3 - in the winter of course - this just saved my summer

i can deal with 30 miles on one charge - thats what i got today - Cell 3 lowest at 3.0xx volts - the rest where 3.1xxx volts - total pack volt 24.83 V - not too bad -

too bad i got that one weak Cell - - next ADD ON i may go for the 75ah Cells - i was debating them - and decided on these for a few reasons - one being they where shorter height - but the 75ah Cells were thinner and would have fitted in my box with out having to extend it cut it etc, - just the top wouldnt lock close - i would have - or could have dealt with that - could have worked - all well -

this was intended to be a winter project - till my Main chair motors are dead - so i was rushing to get something fast - and went with these -
but its amazing how much better the range is now -

i now feel at least do 60ah ADD ON - or 45ah ADD ON if using Headways - - i wouldnt do anything less -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jul 2018, 23:31

Your lead batteries are still about 1/3rd or more full. So a diode would let you go another 5 miles. But 30 real world miles rather than the 20 ISO test bullshit miles is still pretty good.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 16 Jul 2018, 23:43

thats pretty good - but its ok with the lead - this way i wont work them hard and they last since i wont be getting new ones for this chair - this way - this can last many many years - and i wont have to worry about them - replacing lead in this chair means it has to come apart - top off the base etc, - its a bit of a pain but mostly not looking to pay for lead ever again :) this 60ah pack - cost about the same -

so if you compare them - lead would be dead in a year or so - easy - 60ah pack would keep going for many many more years - cost the same - so isnt worth paying for lead - if i got them free - i change them out - but i wont anymore -

i feel much better now - Cell 3 - what can i do - - not too bad if you think about it if it stays this way - once i get my main chairs back in working order
this one wont get used hard and will sit as my back up back up chair :)
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 16 Jul 2018, 23:45

Burgerman wrote:Your lead batteries are still about 1/3rd or more full. So a diode would let you go another 5 miles. But 30 real world miles rather than the 20 ISO test bullshit miles is still pretty good.



if i did add that - and get 5 more miles - it would drain the lead deeper each time - but also what if it fails - then the ADD On wouldnt work - ?

lets say i am 15 miles away when it fails - i have to get back on lead which wont make it from that distance -

like the first time when i had a 30A fuse on the ADD ON line - one day it did blow - i noticed it right away on my JS - lights were going out way too early and i knew something was wrong - fuse was blown and i was on lead alone - i wasnt too far then and was fine getting back

remove it and left it - all good since
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 16 Jul 2018, 23:52

i reached the point where if i had to use a Chair with just lead in it - wont be worth it to me to even get up dressed etc, all that work to go out with lead chair and not go far anymore - 2 hours or 3 at most and have to be home - i wouldnt even bother going out -

thats how i got so accustomed to lithium now that at the very least - have to use an ADD ON - and now at least 60ah ADD ON - if not more 75ah is more like it -

for my next one i will consider 75ah cells - if i can find new ones - a bit wary now - after this purchase - - i would have to take more time in deciding which i didnt have time now if i wanted to savage my summer
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jul 2018, 23:52

if i did add that - and get 5 more miles - it would drain the lead deeper each time - but also what if it fails - then the ADD On wouldnt work - ?

lets say i am 15 miles away when it fails - i have to get back on lead which wont make it from that distance -


Not sure what you mean by fail. At the moment as you drive, you use lithium for the first 1/3rd the trip. Then lead AND lithium for the next 1/3rd, and then you are home. Down to your 3V. Leaving much of the lead (the last 1/3rd) unused.

If you fit a diode, then as you set off, you will use both, together, (but still more lithium, in a more matched way. So at the half way point you will have used about the same of each. So you will have less lead, but more lithium left to get home than before.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 01:07

i mean if that thing i add in the line to even out the discharge - - can that fail like a fuse ? if that failed - then the lithium would stop there - and only running on lead from that point on -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 01:14

Anything is possible. Your whole chair depends on mosfets,diodes, resistors, etc. If it fails, you could just remove it and join the wires.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 03:09

its a good idea - Can i just solder that item to the wire if i did it and heat shrink over it ?

i may not do it or i may make another adapter with one in line and just swap it out - - chair is still charging up - looks like it may end with about 80ah Cap In when done

if the 60ah pack is really giving me about 50ah of use at least and the gel is about 30ah make it about right at 80ah - if this pack gave me the full 60ah - then i would have a 90ah pack

before i was getting about 60ah cap in - with the 30ah headways - so i figure the lead is giving me 30ah of them - if i added the thing in line - i can get another 10ah to 15ah out of the lead -

90ah to 95ah pack but lead would get discharged alot deeper all the time -

i am thinking about what you said - about replacing Cell 3 only - its an idea -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 04:13

First Full Trip with 60ah ADD ON - getting 50ah at least out of it -

this is the recharge - and when i got home - monitor before i recharged - at 30 miles - the weakest Cell 3 - 3V -

So there you have it - anyone can do this - just have to be careful finding the right Cell - trying to find good new cells is hard the way i did it - so be prepared for NOS Cell and even used but sold as new - who knows - its the wild west in China :) anything goes

i would shoot for 75ah Cells for ADD ON if it can fit - then you may get lucky or if not maybe a good 60ah to 65ah out of it instead -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 07:40

That shows your lithium was fully discharged. And say 55Ah from it. And about 15Ah or less from the lead only! So a diode would give you an easy 20% range increase.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby shirley_hkg » 17 Jul 2018, 07:58

Don't know how much you've paid .

Taking this CALB 60Ah cell @£12.50 an example , I wouldn't complain to get a 24V-55Ah pack @£100.00. :thumbup:

It costs even less , if you choose other unknown brands. :fencing

I won't take lead any more , even if they were given for free , let alone a £650.00 pair of MK gel out of my own pocket .
:thumbdown:
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 16:23

Burgerman wrote:That shows your lithium was fully discharged. And say 55Ah from it. And about 15Ah or less from the lead only! So a diode would give you an easy 20% range increase.



i will order it from the link you gave me - once i get it - i can solder it inline on the Pos. wire thats the ADD On Cable from the pack to the Chair ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 16:29

shirley_hkg wrote:Don't know how much you've paid .

Taking this CALB 60Ah cell @£12.50 an example , I wouldn't complain to get a 24V-55Ah pack @£100.00. :thumbup:

It costs even less , if you choose other unknown brands. :fencing

I won't take lead any more , even if they were given for free , let alone a £650.00 pair of MK gel out of my own pocket .
:thumbdown:


yes thats a Great deal - on my next ADD ON - which i may want to make for my new chair -

would you be able to find me some ? size would be a factor - those are too thick - ideally i would need 30mm thick - to fit right in my box - something about 30mm x 130 x 190 would be perfect fit - 75ah Cell this time around
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 16:42

Burgerman wrote:Any 50 to 100A schottky diode.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vishay-VS-100B ... m570.l1313

Free shipping from UK?



Ok done - i ordered two of them - worth a shot - 20% more range - that wont be bad - what does that translate to ? 5 miles extra or more ?

i just worry that it fails when i am out there far - i wont know and then would be running off lead alone - or if it fails while i started and once i realize it - - may be too far out there to make it bad on lead alone - i like to see how much more i can get this way
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 16:56

Not sure. But we will find out!
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 17:01

Burgerman wrote:Not sure. But we will find out!



looks like i am the test subject here - :)
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 20:22

Nobody tried this before. So we dont quite know what will happen. For the first few miles you need to monitor the temp of the diode. As it will get hot. To run at high power continuously like up a hill, is the hottest it will get. I think the cables will be enough of a heat sink though. But I am guessing. Its safe to 170C water boils at 100. :geek:

You are tester. Did you order a silicon or a schottky diode?
Its small, you will need small ring terminals.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 20:40

Burgerman wrote:Nobody tried this before. So we dont quite know what will happen. For the first few miles you need to monitor the temp of the diode. As it will get hot. To run at high power continuously like up a hill, is the hottest it will get. I think the cables will be enough of a heat sink though. But I am guessing. Its safe to 170C water boils at 100. :geek:

You are tester. Did you order a silicon or a schottky diode?
Its small, you will need small ring terminals.



Ok wait now this was never done before ? if i knew that - its ordered now - but i have no way to monitor this - once its on - its in my back pack thats it - i am on my own - maybe this isnt a good thing after all - :shock:

i ordered the one from the link you posted from UK - - i got two of them - but by the time they arrive may be 20 days - so not anytime soon - and now i am worried if theres no safe cover for it - can i heat shrink the whole thing like you would a fuse etc ?

i will making an adapter with xt90 one end and SB50 other end - and this in line - - thats how i have it now - i can then just replace with new one with this installed inline - long story but this Cable i had was my first one made and had both sb50 ends - Since i have changed over to using xt90 for other reasons - i had to make an adapter to use this cable or make a new cable - - nothing wrong with the cable so i left it and made adapter instead -

Schottky is the one you posted - i ordered that one
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 20:56

Heat shrink? If it stays relatively cool (not too hot in use) and no damage.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 21:26

when i get this thing - i will ask you how to proceed - i cant leave it fully exposed if it gets HOT - it will be in my back pack on top of other things etc, - not a good thing if it gets hot to the point where it can be dangerous -

not sure how i would test it - the large hills are not close to me - by the time i test it on a hill - i be far from home - cant have it fail then -

i though you guys done this before ? maybe i heat shrink it and wrap it that tape i got to wrap the pack with - ?

if it needs to be exposed to have Air keeping it cool - maybe a fuse holder to snap over it - if i can find one that would fit , or work etc, ?
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 21:32

I never had an addon other than as an experiment. Just to play with for a couple of weeks. It works, but I rather fitted a full pack.

I have used a diode - several at once - on one occasion, because I was using a hobby lipo 7S to get me to the pub and back when my lead wad knackered and discharged. A fast setup with wires twisted together etc. why? Because lipo is all the wrong voltages - too much. Anything for a beer. :ak47 It worked. No time to charge.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 21:40

ok - i try it - i just want to be safe and sure i do it right and have to cover it somehow - i cant leave it bare on the wire - depending how small is it - maybe i just solder it in the line and not use screws ? or not a good idea ?

for me which ever way is easier i will do - as long as its correct best way etc, -
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 22:49

I would use terminals. They will soak away heat. But soldering could work if you do it fast.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Jul 2018, 23:13

Burgerman wrote:I would use terminals. They will soak away heat. But soldering could work if you do it fast.


ok terminals then - do you happen to know the size or kind i need - ?

i would solder the terminal to the wire and ring on the diode end - then heat shrink over the whole thing

both ends are different - does it have to be added in a certain direction ? or dosnt matter
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jul 2018, 23:36

Yes but thats easy. Wrong way, no power flows. So you will soon know. Your lead will run out...

A diode is a one way valve for electricity. Lets power go one way. But nothing flows the opposite way. They are used to turn AC into DC for example. Or to prevent a device getting connected in reverse causing damage. The only problem with them is that they lose a little voltage. But thats useful here!

A silicone diode loses about .65v. It loses a little bit more as the Amps increase.
A Schottky Diode is the same. But they are good at high frequencies which we dont care about and good at high currents which we do. They drop between .2 and .4V. Usually around .25 at idle to .4 under load.

So will allow the voltage of your addon to be around .3V less after the diode. So the lead will get used a little more as the voltage drops. At the end of your run, when the lithium is at 3.1V the battery will be .3v lower. Does this matter? Yes, you will use a little more lead. Maybe not much. The .65 to .7 drop from silicone diode will use more lead.

There are lots of types of diodes. Laser diodes, germanium diodes (.2 drop) and the LEDs you see lit up everywhere, etc.
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 18 Jul 2018, 01:16

ok - i got the one you linked too - you said that can make 20% difference in range for the better give or take ?

you would know which end to attach it ? i dont want to do it wrong and run on lead only
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 18 Jul 2018, 03:19

ok - i can just heatshrink the metal parts and leave the Main body alone and it would be safe ?

the easiest way to do it for me now is to put it inline in the bag - so its safe to leave it exposed the main body only - ?

in this pic - the xt90 thats not in use there - thats where i will have an adapter from that xt90 to sb50 end - and will sit in the bag on top there somewhere

that would be the best way for me to add it -

have you had any issues where it failed on you ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vishay-VS-100B ... 2749.l2649

which end goes where ? Neg. wire not Pos wire ?

thanks
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby shirley_hkg » 18 Jul 2018, 03:21

expresso wrote:when i get this thing - i will ask you how to proceed - i cant leave it fully exposed if it gets HOT - it will be in my back pack on top of other things etc, - not a good thing if it gets hot to the point where it can be dangerous -

not sure how i would test it - the large hills are not close to me - by the time i test it on a hill - i be far from home - cant have it fail then -

i though you guys done this before ? maybe i heat shrink it and wrap it that tape i got to wrap the pack with - ?

if it needs to be exposed to have Air keeping it cool - maybe a fuse holder to snap over it - if i can find one that would fit , or work etc, ?


I did it for years . Twist a few of them together to allow bigger amp . Just warm to touch . Long way to get my finger burnt .



Shield the wire ends only so as to expose the diode bodies to open air for cooling . You can put it outside your bag , near the chair's end .

Prefer to put it in the NEG path that it won't have sparks , in case getting in contact of metal .

Worried still ? Put a 20A rocker switch , in parallel with the diodes , to cancel / bypass it anytime . cheers drunk2
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Re: 60ah ADD ON build with Pictures

Postby expresso » 18 Jul 2018, 03:42

i wont have it for a while - shipping from the UK - when i get it - i will post a pic how i would do it - and wait for input on how to proceed

the link i posted is what i ordered - will use one of them only - on the Neg. wire - question is which end goes where - in which direction i put it i mean

do you still use them with your ADD ON packs or you dont use ADD ONs any longer ?
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