PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

[Andrettwheels]

Sorry, Irving,
didn't complete the full registration. I,m from Israel and this is my very first electric Permobil F3. Just order the technician for the first time and complain about steering and seating, so want to see how they doing this and what equipment using. the dealer is so far away and was waiting already a month for him to coming. we don't have so much electric chair around and have restrictions from the ministry of health to limit speed on a chair to 6 km/h - 4mp/h. some of the dealers like a quickie, otto bock making unlock for speed and other options but Permobil is very strict. I didn't choose the chair, that's what I've got permission from the ministry of health. So trying to find out how to make things work better. No hope for the dealer. wanted to buy r-net dongle from the US but wasn't sure it will work on Permobil F32019.
Thanks for any helpful information.

[Andrettwheels]

Hi Steve, Thanks for the help. I'm in the same situation her e. got permission for Permobil and was waiting for it like more than a year, so was the lack of power to fight to change to something else. in generally the same situation, was injured the first day I used the chair but still like the look. just don't understand why other chairs weigh around 100-120 kg. and PERMOBIL LIKE 60-80KG. more.
Very heavy chair.
so you saying I need OEM dongle rather than dealer one. so how I can recognize it.
Thanks

[Andrettwheels]

Hi Burgerman, thanks for helping. almost a hundred percent agree with what you saying but sometimes we don't have a choice. just look at the salsa and it looks good, but what about Sedeo. it's newer and stronger. and they have the same joystick that I have. start leaning-cjsm2. Does the quickie have the same dongle?

[steves1977uk]

The first day I used it and break my legs because the driving was not intuitive at all.

Been using powerchairs for 35 years+ and never have broken any bones while using them, so I don't understand how this can happen?

Also if the damned things were set up properly to begin with then this would be less of an issue, depending on the individual's needs.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Before getting hold of a programmer I have been very close. Attempting to go between a lamp post and a curb where theres only an inch or so either side at speed. On just one occasion resulted in the CHAIR causing me to over correct about 3 times because of the stupid programming, and dropping off the curb and turning over into the road. Rescued by 3 fire fighters that happend by. Fortunately just bruises.

And falling off the side of a long concrete ramp while attempting to turn 90% for a doorway on the docks. Again that could have ended very badly and I was going slowly because of the shitty control. And removing enough wood from my kitchen door frame that I had to get a joiner to replace it. Complete with a new arm and a new footplate at about 5mph to zero in an instant.

Same chair now goes EXACTLY where I tell it with total confidence. Inch perfect. Even with my 20 stone, old knackered battery.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4 Old vid, but you get the idea. This is a weedy 80A power module too.

It goes exactly where I tell it. When I tell it. And it STOPS turning when I tell it.
It just drives like my car/PC mouse/RC Heli and everything else sane.

You dont HAVE to wheelie everywhere. You can go as slowly as you want and be milimeter perfect. Once programmed properly you only need ONE profile. And I leave it set to max speed/performance 24/7. Because its now EASY to use it.

[steves1977uk]

I see what you mean BM, yes I have had some accidents too in my time and hurt myself badly just because the chair decided to do the opposite! But luckily no broken bones! Phew!

This was before I got hold of a programmer, but once set up and programmed correctly, no more issues!

Steve

[Irving]

... just look at the salsa and it looks good, but what about Sedeo. it's newer and stronger.

Sedeo is the seating system and its been around since at least 2009 in 2 forms, Sedeo Lite and Sedeo Pro. It sits on a power base through an interface adaptor (essentially a couple of bits of bent angle iron). Its very flexible in terms of configuration, but only alloy profile so not as strong as some other options. Salsa seating I believe is a similar concept but separately delivered.

The dongles are the same for any chair with R-Net controls. Dealer dongle has an 'A' in a box at bottom RH corner of the label, OEM a B. OEM programing can be done with a Dealer dongle with a little workaround using both dealer and OEM level software. Its not really limiting.

[Burgerman]

Hi Burgerman, thanks for helping. almost a hundred percent agree with what you saying but sometimes we don't have a choice. just look at the salsa and it looks good, but what about Sedeo. it's newer and stronger. and they have the same joystick that I have. start leaning-cjsm2. Does the quickie have the same dongle?

Sedeo is just the seating. Thats all an afterthought. First the CHAIR and all the stuff in my list. THEN worry about seating options. And theres lots. The seating on mine is strong, power everything, centre footplate with angle and length adjustment, lift, tilt, recline and the whole chair was less than 6k after a little discount to me. But anyone can do it for 7k delivered.

The basic stock salsa is NOT good. Its a cheap and half finished chair with 60Ah battery, and weedy VR2 electronics, 2 pole motors, swing away footrests etc, and because of those its also configured in a way that puts your feet ahead of the casters so its oil tanker long, and will not steer properly as most of your weight is over the front casters... Its also got 101 seating options that you must also configure.

The centre power footrest was grafted on from the mid drive version. (A custom build option they said was possible). The seat moved back by 3 inches - the reason for the centre footplate. The headrest mount fabricated by me as they supplied some random ugly scaffolding. I also cut off the push handles. The rear wheels and tubeless tyres were added by me too to replace the bycicle style junk they come with. Along with a redesigned swing away joystick mount, wider Jay P shaped arms, and a better colour Joystick that wasnt available when that chair was designed.

As I say, I looked at its basics, its design, decided what was possible and changed many order options, modified a few things, and those small details made for a great chair that works! A stock one is unusable and looks unfinished. The small details change a gutless nose heavy unusable chair into a great one. DETAILD and planning MATTER!

Heres a full 120A Rnet system CHEAP! But you can see how simple it is.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8857

FULL top of range R-Net system, bought as used parts - seperately - for approx £289 the lot! Thats seating, lights, cables, 120 power module, and top of range Joystick. I actually found 3 full sets of these, all as brand new stripped from brand new chairs taht were broken for parts or factory refurbed parts. Or bought on this forum. I have 3 complete sets that cost me much less than 1000 combined! You gotta have spares, cables, etc IN STOCK!

Permobile use some of their own customised or aftermarket parts however. Locking the user out and making programming some stuff impossible. Dont buy permobil! Or Pride. Or the newer Invacare stuff. Right now you need a chair that uses R-Net generic stuff. Or you will be in pain later on.

[Andrettwheels]

Sorry Burgerman, just confused. it was Q500R Sedeo chair.

[Burgerman]

The Q500 and Q700 are the same basic chairs. They can be ordered with all the same options. They are basically the replacement for the Salsa. But I wouldnt want one if you gave it to me.

Why? Because in their infinite wisdom they have added front suspension! Thats great! Except at the same time they also moved the two front caster arms 2 inches closer together. And that ruined the chair. The only way to make ANY rear drive chair work properly is to use a centre footplate (they even got that bit right!) and then move you, the seat, and your feet backwards into the gap between the casters.

Well now, you cant do that! My next chair is another Salsa this year before they vanish.
This means that you are sat 3 or 4 inches further forwards in the Q500/Q700 chairs than in the Salsa...
That means that you are sitting on the front casters. And the drive wheels have little weight over them. That causes the following problems.

1. the thing is horribly unweildy inside. Because your feet are stuck out too far ahead. Chair too long and nose heavy. And the chair does not turn on the spot, but swings you around a long way in front of the drive wheels in comparison to my own Salsa, or BM2/3 chairs. This makes it feel long, and heavy. It makes you do a lot of manoevering and shuffling as you negotiate the house as the drive wheels are more behind you than under your bakside. And outdoors, every time the overloaded front caster find a dip or a non level area, a REAR wheel leaves the ground. And thats the wheel that decides where and if you are in control. So now you are not... So its terrible over uneven stuff, tree rootes, leaving a ramp or curb cut at an angle etc.

2. Since you are sat a long way over the front, the caster wheels are overloaded. So now the chair does not want to steer or zero turn. It effectively runs out of power and does not follow the stick. Even with 4 pole motors and 120A controller. It hasnt got enough torque. And while doing so, or trying, it sucks hundreds of amps from the battery. And you feel this at every turn. It like turning in glue... So it makes it long, unweildy, harder to steer, less easy to control outdoors, and eats up batteries. Or occasionally refuses to start a zero speed turn at all!

As I say. Seating is just a bunch of hinges and actuators that gets tacked on top. Its the last thing you need to look at.
The chairs basic function MUST be dealt with first. Doesent matter how fancy the seating is if the basic chassis/battery/CG/motor and controller type is not sorted FIRST! No point having marvelous seating on a crap chair!

[swalker]

I like Permobil. I like my F5 a lot. I prefer front wheel drive. I am not particularly hampered by an inability to alter some programing parameters because I have difficulties with my drive hand. The stock programming suites my needs just fine.

I live where there is a lot of space to work with a large wheelchair like the F3 or F5. You might not.

If my disability was similar to Burgerman's, I would share his opinion about Permobil and rear wheel drive wheelchairs. My point is that what is likely to work for you will depend highly on your specific needs.

For reference, I have 3 front wheel drive chairs, 1 rear wheel drive chair, and 1 four wheel drive chair.

Steve

[Andrettwheels]

I agree with you too. whatever works for one doesn't work for another. I didn't have a choice and agreed to get Permobil for the hope it will work fine for me and be very comfortable, even I knew that it difficult to steer and rear-wheel drive much better for outdoor. but my hope was to make some changes with steering and speed.
I didn't think it will be so difficult. so on Wednesday, the technician should come and I will try to convince him to make some changes. any idea will be appreciated for changes. Even if no speed, but steering.
Thanks

[Andrettwheels]

I didn't try any chair before just Permobil, but what I should say, i try C350l and didn't like it because of suspension in front. the feeling was that I'm trying to jump out of the chair when the brakes were applied or just deceleration, maybe it because of my lack of balance. it didn't happen with F3 FWD.

[Burgerman]

The reason they do that is because they are like your front drive chair. But with you too far forwards so that its almost overbalancing to the front but not quite. The front arms are not suspension They are sprung in contact with ground. To stop you falling forwards... If they are adjusted so that they are firmer you dont tip forwards as much. But you are removing weight from the drive wheels. And so get stuck on gravel or a slight hollow etc. Mid draive is a silly idea, and with tiny casters and short enough to work indoors they are terrible and harsh outdoors and get stuck... Thats why mid drive is best suited to shopping centres or indoors. Theres an exception. The V6 or X5 (older model). Those work outdoors because they are a huge 28.5 wide, and as long as a football pitch... But that makes them rubbish indoors or in a van etc.

Front drive, apart from the programming difficulty and handling problems if you try, and the stability issues because of the layout, they are too long for me. With a great long lump of chair swinging around behind. In my local pub you would be wiping out all the people that are crammed in behind you every time you turn or try to manoever. So again, not for me.

So front and mid drives have a few issues. Everything is a compromise. But rear drive as a STOCK chair has just as many problems. They are all way too nose heavy and too long. Here comes my legs. Here comes the rest of me. So they dont steer either and are crap indoors.
Thats why I made a few small but highly significant changes to that salsa. And Why my my own BM2/3 chairs are how they are.

P.S. You have a lot of confidence in this engineer. From experience I can say that he most likely wont have the equipment or any clue and wont be allowed to change things significantly. The real steering issue is that its front drive. And its not really possible to fix that. You cant beat physics.

[Andrettwheels]

Hi,
on the cjsm2 joystick there two connection with stereo jack socket on the bottom side. Does somebody know what is that for?
Thanks

[woodygb]

I recall that they are ON/OFF and Profile toggle .

EDIT...PDF Page 8


http://sunrise.pgdrivestechnology.com/m ... 302-03.pdf

[Burgerman]

Actually they can be sed for that. But its not so simple. Used with a resister array, they can be used to control BT etc, as well as all the seating and lighting controls with a seperate switching array. I think all thats on the page you linked to as well somewhere. They are not single switch sockets and are 3 pin sterio style ones. No time to look at the moment. Carer arrived.

EDIT...
I looked. Pages 26, 27, and the top of 28... They can do a lot of stuff!

[rover220]

Yes, one socket is on/off only. The other is a stereo input with a multitude of uses. Predominantly used for quick access actuator control and external mode/profile button.

[Andrettwheels]

So, anybody knows where to buy the R=net dongle and how much does it cost?
Thanks

[Burgerman]

It costs a LOT. And you can sometimes find used on here, and on eBay, but you will not be able to get one through normal channels because they think you are not worthy. Being disabled an all... But theres a way, if you are loaded! PM me.

[Andrettwheels]

Hi,
it was a sad day.
the technician came with a wheelchair pouch open it and took out hh DDT programmer. connect it to a chair and after a few seconds told me its no connection established. tried out another cable through power socket, the same story. told me it's not the first time and they need to sort it out,
so no luck, need to wait.

[woodygb]

tried out another cable through power socket

Huh!!!! POWER SOCKET.
I thought that you chair was R-net? ... in which case it should connect into the canbus cable.

http://sunrise.pgdrivestechnology.com/p ... ochure.pdf


IF he was indeed trying to connect thru the wrong way then I wouldn't let him come back as he is obviously clueless.

[rover220]

Sounds like he tried the rnet cable via bus first then tried Vr2 via power socket. When you first connect a dtt to rnet it can take what feels like minutes to connect.

[woodygb]

http://sunrise.pgdrivestechnology.com/m ... 393-01.pdf

page 13

Which of these cables did he try?

[woodygb]

Sounds like he tried the rnet cable via bus first then tried Vr2 via power socket. When you first connect a dtt to rnet it can take what feels like minutes to connect.

You could possibly excuse this if he was a first time user of a Handheld...but his job is Wheelchair Technician.

If he isn't competent / knowledgeable with operating such a device then perhaps he shouldn't use one.

[Burgerman]

P.S. You have a lot of confidence in this engineer. From experience I can say that he most likely wont have the equipment or any clue and wont be allowed to change things significantly.

Every time... Nobody listens! This is the very reason that I said.
1. I would never buy any chair that I did not have a OEM level programmer for.
2. I wouldnt have front drive.
3. Wouldnt have a permobil because thie specific hardware and modules mean you have to rely on them alone and they repeatedly show they dont have a clue.

Theres only about 3 people in this industry that do have a clue. One of them is rover on this thread.

[Burgerman]

I thought that the handheld thing could only load on presets that he got "already programmed" in some similar retarded way from the higher ups... Made on the OEM level tools? Not having used one.

[Andrettwheels]

I agree with everybody, just telling my story.
he kinda did it before but said it doesn't work on new model F3 and I think they don't do it so often and even users don't interesting to make changes, they accept, what they've got. he connects first r-net CANbus cable but didn't wait so much. probably about less than minutes. after this, he tried to connect vr2 cable through power socket, the same result- no connections.

[Andrettwheels]

so I think they have only this DDT programmer, not even r-net dongle. so I need to get my own one. No choice. need to survive.
Burgerman it's a good suggestion you give and I very agree, that joystick should be inside and not outside of the chair. they install it outside and it's not intuitive.

[rover220]

I thought that the handheld thing could only load on presets that he got "already programmed" in some similar retarded way from the higher ups... Made on the OEM level tools? Not having used one.

Dtt offers dealer level programming of all the same parameters the pc software gives you.