PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 16 Jan 2020, 13:57

They have given me the wrong dongle.

But as there is a company doo on today they can't look in to it till tomorrow :cussing
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby rover220 » 16 Jan 2020, 17:34

terry2 wrote:They have given me the wrong dongle.

But as there is a company doo on today they can't look in to it till tomorrow :cussing



Lol we did try and tell you. Unless you have been on the training course or can convince them you know what you are doing then you will not get OEM.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 16 Jan 2020, 21:24

rover220 wrote:
terry2 wrote:They have given me the wrong dongle.

But as there is a company doo on today they can't look in to it till tomorrow :cussing



Lol we did try and tell you. Unless you have been on the training course or can convince them you know what you are doing then you will not get OEM.



Sorry dude but I have one being sent out on Monday :lol:
And as said I have the receipt for D50611 R-Net PC PRG OEM

They apologised for the mistake and will give me a discount on my next order.

Now I am going to order an account with other chair parts makers and see the stuff at cost.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jan 2020, 21:36

As I did with several companies inc PG in 98...

:wave:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 17 Jan 2020, 12:07

Burgerman wrote:As I did with several companies inc PG in 98...

:wave:



I'm now trying it with motor makers as the shops over charge people.
I don't need them now. But others do.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jan 2020, 12:27

They want to sell batches of motors. They are usually not geared up for selling 1 or a pair. And every motor is customised for each manufacturer. The cable length, impedance, gear ratio, type of connector. Brake type, and brake voltage, release or microswitch layout, freewheel type, and more. So there not usually an off the shelf standard motor that will work.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 19 Jan 2020, 09:52

I tried tried the OEM trick and I noticed that it still missing out things.

Be glad when I get my other dongle to play with.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jan 2020, 10:10

What thigs are you missing?
You did the OEM thing wrong!

Your file... Remember this is an oddball system. Your controller is a single channel one. And its driving a scooter. Both outputs are combined. You may need to use some care and logic when changing stuff...

This is now OEM unlocked.
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Meyra-stock.R-net
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 19 Jan 2020, 12:53

Burgerman wrote:What thigs are you missing?
You did the OEM thing wrong!

Your file... Remember this is an oddball system. Your controller is a single channel one. And its driving a scooter. Both outputs are combined. You may need to use some care and logic when changing stuff...

This is now OEM unlocked.



HOW DARE YOU call the beast a scooter :lol:

If you look at the one you posted a page back it shows the motor Volts download/file.php?id=12774&mode=view
Using the OEM way it does not show the Volts. I saved it as OEM.R-net
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jan 2020, 13:41

Thats because you are using the wrong software. You are using generic. I am using the better sunrise version...

HOW DARE YOU call the beast a scooter


Thats what it is. Its not using diferential tank steering like a wheelchair. Its driving a couple of wheels back and forth like a scooter, and steering with the steered wheels like a scooter or car. How many drive motors does it have?

A wheelchair steers by mixing the steer and drive electronically across the drive wheels. Two seperate MIXED channels.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 21 Jan 2020, 12:36

I don't believe this crap company.

First I was sent a D50609.03 with a capital A in the bottom right box.

Just now they sent me a D50610.02 AW20010063 with a capital B in the bottom right box

It has lots more options using the software they sent.

But it does not show Volts for the motor as the sunrise version does. I am happy with that.....I think :lol:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Irving » 21 Jan 2020, 14:05

terry2 wrote:But it does not show Volts for the motor as the sunrise version does. I am happy with that.....I think :lol:

That's because the 'volts' parameter sets the headroom for steering - with tank steer one motor has to run faster than the other to turn. It has no meaning on your chair hence it's not there...
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 21 Jan 2020, 15:17

Irving wrote:
terry2 wrote:But it does not show Volts for the motor as the sunrise version does. I am happy with that.....I think :lol:

That's because the 'volts' parameter sets the headroom for steering - with tank steer one motor has to run faster than the other to turn. It has no meaning on your chair hence it's not there...



Thank you very much.

I was hoping to speed it up a bit :)

Hows your bluetooth monitor going?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby steves1977uk » 21 Jan 2020, 16:28

terry2 wrote:I don't believe this crap company.

First I was sent a D50609.03 with a capital A in the bottom right box.

Just now they sent me a D50610.02 AW20010063 with a capital B in the bottom right box

It has lots more options using the software they sent.

But it does not show Volts for the motor as the sunrise version does. I am happy with that.....I think :lol:


That's because you receive the Generic version of the software when ordering from Curtiss-Wright. Each manufacturer can request additional settings to be added to their branded version of OEM software, hence more settings in the Sunrise version. Meyra might have their specialised version for your chair, but they won't let you have it unless you're a qualified tech. :roll:

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 02 Feb 2020, 12:59

This is a small file that can be applied to ANY R-net chair. It does the following.

It applies my own safe accurate intuitive steer and driving speeds. Wont work if you dont have normal hand control or technique, Wont work with a gyro, wont work if your hand or joystick position and technique is wrong.

It gives you only 2 profiles.
Profile 1 - very slow, empty chair with reduced motor compensation only.
Profile 2 - gives you ALL SPEEDS and is the only profile you will ever need.

It will not change or affect ANY of your seating, inhibits, or any other settings. Hopefully...
Only changes you driving settings, the walls removed, and lowered compensation on the empty chair profile1

Save your existing profile to desktop, so that you can restore it if you wish.
This below must be opened inside your programming software, by selecting open, and also by selecting .rnss files. And it only modifies your existing profile. So all other settings on YOUR machinre remain the same.
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Drive settings.zip
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby duke1 » 22 Feb 2020, 17:14

hi all @burgerman do the settings you state on this thread also equate to the dynamics dx/dx2 system?
ie min reverse acc you give as 100 on the puma its at 40 the dynamics goes by percentage am i mistaken thinking this is different to the pg drives measuring method for want of better word,it just seems big jump from 40-100!
so i left it for now till i can work out if im doing it right,and yes i have copied and saved the original settings just incase this time!
thanks to our diamond geezer woody i atleast can work the program now but am finding it very hard to work out which settings relate to the system as terminology differs so from the pg drives of which i am vaguely acustomed this is gibberish to me mostly,any help greatly needed!cheers all cheers
ps i did try downloading a template going by the system type and it did not work at all after and had a J showing on joystick so i had to restore the settings that was on it when it came for entire different chair.
so either i picked wrong default prog or something else is wrong,peace czy
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 22 Feb 2020, 19:58

The TURN acceleration settings need to be at 100, inc turn deceleration.
Reverse acceleration, and forward acceleration are whetever you prefer.

If you cant get 100 turn acceleration, and it limits you to a lower figure, then you can increase the turn acceleration scaler by 10, or 20 instead. That speeds up all turn accelerations/decelerations.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Andrettwheels » 14 Mar 2020, 14:01

Hi to everybody.
I'm new here and I
have my first power chair Permobil F3 2019. with only Power Back function. The first day I used it and brake my legs because the driving was not intuitive at all.
My dealer just doesn't want to deal with that and regret to do any changes in a chair
My question is what kind of equipment should I use to reprogrammed the steering and speed.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks for the help.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2020, 18:48

Problem is as you figured out programming.
Whilst its possible on most chairs to fix that and make it steer just like your car or computer mouse, its not so simple on
a) any front drive chair.
b) any chair needing to have a gyro.
c) permobils in particular.

If you have access to a programmer, preferably OEM level, you can try and reduce all the delays in the turning.

So reduce turn acceleration delay by setting it to a high figure. On my own chairs I always set that to 100. With a gyro, or a stability module, or a front drive chair that may make it behave very oddly. With a non guro chair, mid and rear drive it just takes away all the delay in turning at the rate you choose.

Also the same applies to turn deceleration. Setting that, and the Minimum Turn Acceleration, and Minimum turn deceleration (all 4 settings) just results on an accurate controllable chair as long as you dont have front drive with stability electronics trying to keep an unstable platform usable...

And because most chairs just use R-Net components programming those is generally easy. But permobil have their own "branded" stability components and seating modules and custom joysticks. And so many of these will not allow you to adjust any settings.

So my advice (too late) is avoid permobil, and avoid front drive. Others, often with less exacting programming and driving standards think they are OK. Having compared frot drive to rear with the programming and stability issues I would have to disagree markedly!

So first step, find a OEM level programmer, or a person with one, and do a lttle testing...

Also you MUST read and undrstand the first few threads on here very carefully.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8035
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Andrettwheels » 14 Mar 2020, 22:42

Thanks for answering, but I'm already in with Permobil f3 and this is FWD.
SO for the next 5 years its belong to me and I can't change it.
The question of what is the OEM level programmer for Permobil because the dealer refuse to make any changes with the chair.
So what is the name of the OEM level programmer and where can I get it.
Thanks
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Andrettwheels » 14 Mar 2020, 22:47

Forget to mention it the chair has r-net new joystick with a big color screen. don't know the name. and a chair going crazy forward all the time wheeling from side to side.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2020, 22:56

Its basically an R-Net power module, with a R-Net model controller (a uk company called Curtiss Wright, used to be Penny & Giles).
With stock r-net bus cables, etc and r-net manufactured joystick etc but its branded for permobil. Some butons are missing on joystick for e.g. And then Permobil use their own stability and seating modues for reasons we will never know. Which can make programming highly problematic. Especially as it often means that you must call permobil. Who continually demonstrate that they cannot help you, or wont. And that they cant fix or program their own systems. And most likely the dealer or expert you get to see neither has the OEM tools needed or the understanding or ability to do anything much anyway.

The best you can do is to borrow, beg, steal access to, or aquire a programmer. Next problem is that "they" like to pretend that OEM tools are dangerous (they can be) and so will not sell them to an end user. Leaving you back at square 1.

You need to find an R-net dongle.
It can be dealer, if thats all you can find. And it wont be cheap. And that allows you to put OEM level modified files onto your chair. IF permobil compatibility allows it. That depends on a bunch of things like firmware that permobil use on their equipment etc. But usually yu can fine tune things to some degree.

Doesent it amaze you that every new chair is shipped in frankly undrivable delayed action dangerous state? And we are supposed to use them this way?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2020, 23:00

Theres a thread here showing that joystick.

There are in fact R-Net versions. And a cut down version, with I think smaller screen, and several buttons missing built specifically for permobil.

I will see if I can find it...

Forget to mention it the chair has r-net new joystick with a big color screen. don't know the name. and a chair going crazy forward all the time wheeling from side to side.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2020, 23:05

Theres a thread here showing that joystick.

There are in fact R-Net versions. And a cut down version, with I think smaller screen, and several buttons missing built specifically for permobil.

I will see if I can find it...

Forget to mention it the chair has r-net new joystick with a big color screen. don't know the name. and a chair going crazy forward all the time wheeling from side to side.


Found!
Permobil and R-Net generic versions.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9501&p=152107&hilit=permobil+cut+down+joystick#p152107

Scroll and look carefully.
Here is the Curtiss Wright company that MAKE permobils branded version, and the generic R-Net used by other chair companies.
https://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/Prod ... ions/R-net
Note that R-Net stability modules, gyros, seating modules already exist. But permobil use their own which is whare all the problems come from.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby swalker » 15 Mar 2020, 01:59

It is likely you have the Permobil joystick with the 2.8 inch color display.

A detailed description of the capabilities of this can be found starting on page 62 of the Users Guide.

In short, there are two toggle switches on that controller (items F and G in the attached diagram). Push the left one (item F) forward until you are in profile 1 or 2 (they may be called something else). By default, profile 1 is typically slower speed than profile 2.

Pulling back on the right one (item G) will reduce the speed setting within that profile (there are 5 speed settings).

When getting used to the wheelchair, I recommend starting in profile 1 at the lowest speed setting. It will take just a second or two to try this. You should find that the wheelchair will be far less sensitive to control input.

Steve
Attachments
Permobil Joystick Module.jpg
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
Magic Mobility X4 with 176 Ah LiFePO4
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Andrettwheels » 15 Mar 2020, 10:47

So i basically need a r- net dongle or hddt programmer will work too.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby swalker » 15 Mar 2020, 11:50

You can select which profile and/or speed to use without a dongle.

If you want to change the "programming" (really, just adjust parameters of a pre-established program), you will need a dongle.

There are two kinds of dongles: dealer level and OEM level. You probably want the OEM dongle, but be forewarned those are hard to find and can be expensive. You will want the accompanying windows-based software for the dongle also.

Note that Permobil limits the parameters you can change, even with the OEM dongle - a reason some on this forum recommend not getting a Permobil wheelchair.

I have 4 Permobil wheelchairs. I have a dealer level dongle. I also have control issues with my hand that works the joystick. I have injured both my legs in various accident as I was learning to use the wheelchairs. I still like my Permobil wheelchairs, but wish I had a greater ability to tune their programming parameters to my needs.

Setting the Profile to "indoors" and the speed mode to 1 or 2 really helped me as I was learning to drive the wheelchairs.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Irving » 15 Mar 2020, 12:02

Andrettwheels wrote:So i basically need a r- net dongle or hddt programmer will work too.

It would help if you edited your profile to make your location visible. You might then find someone locally who can help, or can lend you a dongle.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby LROBBINS » 15 Mar 2020, 12:14

I think you will want a dongle and PC program rather than the hand-held programmer. An OEM level dongle would be best, but if you can only get a dealer-level programmer, with some tricks that Burgerman and others here can tell you about you can still modify the OEM level parameters - it's just more awkward to do it that way The hand held won't let you do that. I don't know if anyone has yet figured out a way to change the programming of the Permobil-made modules.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Mar 2020, 13:10

Certainly not permobil! :clap

They are all jobsworths. They neither have the tools, or any idea. The best you can hope for is a new "overlay" which is a new settings file from above...

This is why I say I will never buy any powerchair that I do not already have or can get an OEM level programming tool for. Because to me any chair I cant properly program myself, isnt usable. At least not as a daily chair. Its a nighmare trying to control a chair with all that turn acceleration deceleration, and low speed turn acceleration, turn deceleration. It makes the damned thing behave like someone else is steering too!

***************************
My order of importance is:

1. Rear drive. Because mid has too many small casters and gets high centred and its too unweildy. Front drive becase its an unstable platform, needs a gyro to go straight and "funny" programming to be usable. And so I cant drive one like I stole it. And I do that every day.
2. OEM programmer.
3. High Power (100 to 120Amp controller)
4. 4 pole or very low impedance motors plus 6mph NOT FASTER because for real control that needs more than 120A and this isnt available.
5. Wide front caster placement with 9 or 10 inch casters for outdoor use, so that the seat can move back, complete with a CENTRE FOOTREST -- heels go between caster wheels, so you can be seated in the right place. Not NOSE HEAVY like all stock RWD chairs. Or again, no control, or drive wheel traction, and it feels like an oil tanker!
6. Group 24 sized battery area. So that a sensible 200Ah lithiium pack can be used.


THESE are not details. Every one of those points matters 100% if my chair is to be usable. Thats my primary tick box list. When selecting a chair it must fit all of these 6 criteria or it is instantly dismissed.

This is why I bought the Salsa. Read carefully, and then scroll: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

**********************

everything else comes a distant second!
Because the basic chair MUST be right before any of the rest matters.
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