PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Dec 2018, 14:29

Then this:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8035&start=90#p129603

If you dont believe it then drive at full speed in reverse and it should be stable and steer reliably. 50% front drive is the correct setting and the stock setting on front drive chairs for most chairs. It just reduces turn rate at full speed.

Dot forget that you MUST cup the controller, with your hand and use thumb and forefinger to control. NOT just rest your arm on the chair. Read the first couple of posts in this thread.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby funchairguy » 14 Dec 2018, 14:44

Burgerman wrote:Then this:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8035&start=90#p129603

If you dont believe it then drive at full speed in reverse and it should be stable and steer reliably. 50% front drive is the correct setting and the stock setting on front drive chairs for most chairs. It just reduces turn rate at full speed.

Dot forget that you MUST cup the controller, with your hand and use thumb and forefinger to control. NOT just rest your arm on the chair. Read the first couple of posts in this thread.


I think what you and I are talking are two different things. I'm talking about a runaway situation, not a stability situation. It is as if there is a flaw in the control logic.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Dec 2018, 14:59

The only way you get a runaway is if motor load compensation is set too high. Say you set it to 120mOhm where the actual motor is 70mOhm.

But... The manufacturer wouldnt set it that way, as they match this to the motors. And you say the controller is seeing the same exact motor type. So that should not be incorrect. If it is, it will cause your runaway.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby funchairguy » 14 Dec 2018, 23:42

Burgerman wrote:The only way you get a runaway is if motor load compensation is set too high. Say you set it to 120mOhm where the actual motor is 70mOhm.

But... The manufacturer wouldnt set it that way, as they match this to the motors. And you say the controller is seeing the same exact motor type. So that should not be incorrect. If it is, it will cause your runaway.


That makes sense if the runaway was in the same direction, but the runaway is not in the same direction of the joystick command.

I realize the motor settings and types could cause an issue. The first chair had the motor controller and joystick taken from the Hoveround There was no swapping of parts, so the program was factory for that setup. The second chair is identical to the first except the color. I tried your suggestion with a bunch of different motor compensation numbers with no change.

I tried The max min settings as you suggested. If anything, that made it worse. I spent a few hours trying every combination in between. There seems to be some slight improvements with the slower turn acceleration numbers, but no real significant change.

Ultimately, I lowered the turn speed just a tad which seems to be just below the threshold of going into the runaway condition. I can't really notice the turn speed difference but the condition seems to be eliminated.

Thanks for the recommendations/suggestions and help. :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Dec 2018, 23:56

That makes sense if the runaway was in the same direction, but the runaway is not in the same direction of the joystick command.


No its doing its best to swap ends and go "forwards" ie casters first. Its plain physics. You are going backwards. Turn the thing around, so the casters are in the front and drive wheels at the rear and it will be super stable and controllable at full speed.

As far as physics is concerned you are trying to throw a dart backwards. Its doing its best to spin around and face the "correct" way. The opposite way to what you think is the front!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby funchairguy » 15 Dec 2018, 00:49

Burgerman wrote:
That makes sense if the runaway was in the same direction, but the runaway is not in the same direction of the joystick command.


No its doing its best to swap ends and go "forwards" ie casters first. Its plain physics. You are going backwards. Turn the thing around, so the casters are in the front and drive wheels at the rear and it will be super stable and controllable at full speed.

As far as physics is concerned you are trying to throw a dart backwards. Its doing its best to spin around and face the "correct" way. The opposite way to what you think is the front!

Again, you may not realize that you and I are talking two different things. The runaway doesn't happen at speed. It only happens in full turn with little to no forward motion. It is not a stability issue. In fact it drives beautifully at speed. The runaway happening while turning in place. It is like a carnival ride to make you dizzy. Fun for some, but not for everyone.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Dec 2018, 01:01

Then I have no idea. If it has a setting called torque, set that to 0 and tell me what it does.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby expresso » 15 Dec 2018, 01:14

i though this was funny -- wonder how this steers
Attachments
48076256_10159073164216959_6152219216167567360_n.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Dec 2018, 01:54

Wonder why they think that looks cool? :cussing
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby funchairguy » 15 Dec 2018, 02:54

Burgerman wrote:Then I have no idea. If it has a setting called torque, set that to 0 and tell me what it does.

I'll do something better. I just picked up a Jazzy 600 with VR2 motor controller. I'll see if I can program the problem into that one. Maybe I can figure out that way how the issue is being caused. Worst case is I can make it into a carnival ride. :lol: czy

Thanks for the support.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby expresso » 15 Dec 2018, 03:26

Burgerman wrote:Wonder why they think that looks cool? :cussing



beyond me - its amazing it can actually still roll at all - - looks retarded - fits the users
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Rye » 22 Dec 2018, 22:28

SPEEDS

On my Rnet programming there are 3 different speed sections:

Speed
OEM
ESP

I understand Speed and OEM, but not sure why the ESP section. All three sections have the same max/min parameters. Anyone able to help? Thanks.
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speeds.pdf
(195.03 KiB) Downloaded 227 times
Permobil C350/C300, Quickie P-222
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2018, 23:28

Profiles speeds are the max percentage of the others set in the sections below for each profile.
The OEM and ABS settings are what the max settings are (walls) when configuring by end user or dealer software or OBP.
The stability system, used usually on front drive chairs since they are directionally unstable, are the maximum that IT allows you to use.

I worry about all your turn and turn deceleration (minimums) being set to 0. Those normally would be set pretty high. Mine are all 100. Or at low speeds it will be more like sailing a hovercraft than steering a car!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Rye » 23 Dec 2018, 00:33

I tried to change them, but it kept telling me 0 to 0 is the legal range. What are the Proportional, Differential, and Integration factors? fwd stuff not needed for rear wheeled programming?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2018, 00:54

No. I really dont know whats going on there! Never looked at a PDF file.
Unplug the stability module if rear drive it will muck things up totally!

And latched controls? That should be off if joystick is controlling things. It is on mine... Usually used with switches or a tube.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby LROBBINS » 23 Dec 2018, 08:33

Proportional, Differential, and Integration factors are gain settings for the most common type of closed-loop control. On you chair they probably do refer to whatever feedback device is used by the stability control, but PID is used for everything from furnace controls to constant speed motors to .... Finding the right PID settings can be a complex mix of science and art, so unless the manufacturer gives you clear guidance or you are up to hours of study and very cautions experimenting they are best left alone. It's like setting motor compensation, except that instead of one you have three parameters to fiddle with. You can get "underdamped response" overshooting the set point, "overdamped response" never quite reaching the set point, "oscillation" around the set point, or "runaway!" or hit the exact sweet spot where the device smoothly goes to the set point and "locks" onto it. (As long as physical conditions permit - a FWD on a slippery surface is going to swap ends even if the closed loop is dead on. The stability control just helps you to not do that when the traction is adequate. Even a physically-stable device that doesn't need a closed loop control - a RWD chair or car or tricycle-gear airplane - will skid if the surface is slick enough or the crosswind is severe enough.)
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2018, 11:21

Whilst all that is true, when you unplug that stability module, and or untick the box:
Gyro Module Fitted
And
Stability Module Fitted
And
Accelerator module Fitted

Then it will be disabled and can be eBayed.
You dont need one on a mid or rear drive chair. And it will be quite detrimental having it. It makes turning at speed behave very odd... Takes away all feedback and makes an already stable rear drive chair even more stable artificially. How come its fitted anyway?

Front wheel drive rate is generally set to 50% on most chairs, even if rear drive. They drive better if set to 0% if rear drive though. 50% for mid drive, and about 70 to 90 on front drive.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 27 Dec 2018, 11:13

I've been meaning to update on the new r-NET settings that I've had for about couple of months.

I've particularly noticed how accurate the chair steers now while navigating busy shopping centres. It responds really well on the joystick and is as manouvable as my manual chair, but with all the benefit of powered mobility. In fact although it's rwd I reckon I can practically do a 360 within it's length by sort of pulling back on the joystick while turning, if that makes sense? Sorry I'm a relative powetchair newbie

Thanks to Ice and BM. :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 27 Dec 2018, 12:40

Quite. Once you finally get those settings fast and intuitive, with harder accelerations and deceleration's etc, you will leave it on 5 indefinitely and will never think about how or what you push where. It is just transparent. But those settings will need to change as you gain skills. You will not find them aggressive once you learn to drive the thing. Just normal and accurate. Only then will you start to learn and will feel the sag of a lead battery as it becomes older or a gel battery when new. And the chairs lack of linearity due to its mass, etc. At that point you will understand why you need 120A and Odyssey batteries, or lithium. And not 8mph... Because these things all make it vague and frustratingly innacurate and non linear steering. And we wont mention front drive issues at this point because you will by this point have discovered how bad that is!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby greybeard » 30 Dec 2018, 00:08

Woody kindly made me up a programming lead for my Invacare TDX Sp2 but now, would you believe it, I can't find the damned software I thought I had, but have made quite a lot of changes to my Windows laptop. Now running 7 Professional. I've had a good rummage through the TDX documentation but can't confirm from it that it's DX programming.

Would some kind soul please PM the software (Dynamic-6. Would that be right?) to me. Might be an idea to leave off the file suffix as my ISP tends to play silly buggers with .exe and .zip files etc for some unknown reason. Thinks it's helping! It might make it through if it thinks it's just text.
Many thanks
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 30 Dec 2018, 00:12

Its not the ISP its your windows/antivirus/browser/email client settings. Theres no ISP that prevents EXE files. Check PM
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby greybeard » 30 Dec 2018, 00:22

Received. Thanks.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 05 Mar 2019, 21:51

SETTING UP A CHAIR SO IT STEERS.
(DONT do this with a gyro or stability control chair, they are a different problem!!!)

Theres an important order to start with.

Set a single new test profile, if you wish, to these settings.
Set this new test profile's slowest speed (forwards and reverse) with speeds you are completely comfortable with. Probably 15 for indoors and 100 at full speed outdoors? Just copy those figures from your current favorite profile. Or test, ONLY speed achieved. Ignore acceleration and everything else!
Now do the same with FORWARD ACCELERATION, to whatever you are happy with, and set the rearward acceleration the same way. Usually needs to be set same or sometimes much higher.

Now...
Remove walls!!! That is in OEM settings. And set all the minimums allowed to 0. Set all the maximum allowed to 100. All of them that allow this. One may not, choose the lowest here.

So OEM/Factory ABS settings look like this:

abs settings.gif



Back into speed settings:
Set TORQUE to 0 (or off or as low as it allows). It will now not give a boost at tiny stick movements which you can add back in later if needed. I doubt it will need to be set above 20 to 30%..

Set all 4 turn accelerations and turn decelerations to max 100. Thats:
MAXIMUM TURN ACCELERATION
MINIMUM TURN ACCELERATION
MAXIMUM TURN DECELLERATION
MINIMUM TURN DECELERATION.
:ugeek: To make control linear and not delayed. This is KEY!!! ALL 4 to 100. So it turns when told, and stops turning when you say so.

Now, Set all MINIMUM and MAXIMUM TURN SPEEDS very very low.
So low that with full stick a lot of patience will be needed... like glacial speed.

THEN test 1, starting with turning ON THE SPOT. in a smooth tiled, or concrete/tarmac FLAT area. Dont drive forwards or backwards while testing. On the spot!
Set chair to MAX speed or 5? Use full left stick, or full right stick. It may not turn at all since you set turn speed so low. Or it will but v e r y slowly. Now increase that in small steps, until it turns at the fastest speed you ever want outdoors. That you will ever want to use. Left and right, ON THE SPOT. You are only concerned here with the fastest it will turn say 360 degrees looking from above. Set it at what you think is good for you. If your feet fly off, thats bad. Dont try anything else yet.

Test 2. Now, do the exact same, but set the chair to its slowest speed. Or 1. And set the turn speed you want indoors. It can be the same as above, or slightly lower. Your choice. You want it to steer around your house. You dont want it to spin fast enough to throw your feet off the footplate! ONLY worry about the speed it does a full 360... If its sluggish to start turning, or something, ignore that for now.

Now go out to a flat bit of space like a car park and test and fine tune the OTHER speed and acceleration settings for forwards and reverse.. Dont touch any of the turn settings. Unless you go back to 1 and 2. KNOWING now what is happening.

3. If the chair is too steer sensitive at max speed, INCREASE the FRONT DRIVE setting only. If its not too sensitive, decrease this. Mines a rear drive chair. It doesent matter what yours is. This simply reduces TURN SPEED as your joystick moves to the 12 O'clock position. Setting FRONT DRIVE higher reduces turn sensitivity at speed. You may want MORE control at speed. If so set it to 0 like mine.

If you are still struggling with alternate controls, then set deadband to 15 or even 20. But its best not to do that unless desperate. But try it and see.

Those few settings alone, will make it so you can drive in straight lines, and not end up swerving all over the place. That will allow you to have instant control, and instant STOP turning when you tell it. And you will not hit any more door frames...

One setting left. Torque. Go on to a thick carpet. Set chair speed to slowest. Try to do on the spot turns. If it turns slowly and reliably, you are done. If it hesitates. If it wont start to turn. Add small amounts of TORQUE setting until it initiates a zero turn on carpets or grass effortlessely and reliably. This is a balance. It will make the chair more jerky at very slow speeds. Will have no affect as soon as the joystick of your controller, moves further than about 7 to 10% of its deflection. It adds power only around the first few mm of travel. As you will see. Set it too high, to get a feel for what it does. What it ACTUALLY does is to increase MOTOR LOAD COMPENSATION at small joystick movements around the neutral point to aid thresholds, and turning on the spot.

And with that you are 80% done. All that remains is to set a low forward DECELERATION. All chairs seem to be set too high. Minimum, and maximum forward deceleration needs to be lowered until it is smooth when you release the stick. Mine is set super low, I can release the stick and drink a can while it rolls... Back stick stops it fast if needed. And then go test!!!

Any other settings are obvious and can be fine tuned over time. But the above is essential!!!

MUST be done in this order. Or you will have no clue whats actually going on like your and everyone elses dealer...
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 05 Jun 2019, 15:08

For anyone interested, this is my settings file.

This is for a 120 r-net, 4 pole, (using linix motors) 6mph salsa chair, with all possible seating options etc.

The same drive parameters are going to work for all. But the motor compensation is only correct for 4 pole linix or amt motors. This has a SLOW ONLY indoor/empty chair profile. And a 1mph to top speed profile. Only 1 is needed. It works perfectly indoors and out. Just change speed. All the turn speeds etc are proportional with the set speed so all balanced at every speed. Weeks of playing with settings to fine tune.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/program ... ions.R-net
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby greybeard » 07 Jun 2019, 14:10

All very useful stuff BM. Thanks. Trouble is I can't open your settings. I lost my original Rnet software so downloaded V6 from Amy Systems site. It was the only one I could find. Trying to open your file says it was made on a higher version that it would load to the controller (if I had a dongle) but I couldn't open it to read.
Is there another version of the software available to download anywhere that will open it?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ICEUK » 07 Jun 2019, 14:56

So bm,

Have you got any settings you would recommend for a fwd puma 40s 8mph with a gyro, ? I have not played with the gyro settings.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby steves1977uk » 07 Jun 2019, 15:28

greybeard wrote:All very useful stuff BM. Thanks. Trouble is I can't open your settings. I lost my original Rnet software so downloaded V6 from Amy Systems site. It was the only one I could find. Trying to open your file says it was made on a higher version that it would load to the controller (if I had a dongle) but I couldn't open it to read.
Is there another version of the software available to download anywhere that will open it?


See PM. :thumbup:

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 08 Jun 2019, 18:54

OK then

FULL PROFILE FOR OEM R-NET
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/program ... ions.R-net

Screenshots of the IMPORTANT parts only. These are the bits that make it steer and drive properly.

The seating and inhibit and alternative contols,and infra red/BT etc gyros, and all the rest not included. And these setting will not work if you have a front drive chair with gyro drive stability device installed Those will never drive right...

This will work on all mid, rear drive chairs, once you correct the MOTOR COMPENSATION to the correct value in the event that you are NOT using either Linix or AMT 4 pole motors. So you would change that 50mOhm to your setting. Maybe 70 or 100 or whatever.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NOTE that the empty chair has PROFILED compensation set to 95, and 105 for the all speed one. Thats because I am fat. In a mid drive chair you can set these to 95 and 100. If you are light, you can do the same on a rear drive chair.

Also note that the FRONT DRIVE RATE is set to 30% This is because setting it lower means too much steer control at speed making it hard to track straight in a relaxed way. And setting it higher means the thing needs too much left or right to aintain a straight line and becomes hard work.

Profile 1 is the same as profile 2. With the only difference being that it has ONLY got the lowest speed.
So... Profile 1 for empty chair while carers move it around if needed. Works if you sit in it too, but with lower compensation its less urgent...
And... Profile 2 is for ALL OTHER USES. You just need to set the speed to low for indoors. 2 works perfectly. And 5 for full speed outside.

And forward acceleration is set to 70. Mines actually set to max 100. I chose 70 to slow it down for other sane users. Some may still find this a little urgent! So set it lower if you want. Change the FORWARD ACCELERATION and MINIMUM FORWARD ACCELERATION to the SAME value, but a lower one like 50 or 40.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Attachments
3.gif
SET THESE FIRST!!! Or you cannot set the 'speeds' correctly. These are the WALLS!
2.gif
Set front wheel drive rate to 30 as it offers the best balance of high and low speed control on a rear drive.
Set to 50 on a mid drive chair. Dont buy a front drive chair!
1.gif
Set these exactly. Test.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby AlexAGF » 20 Jun 2019, 04:47

I need to program the Permobil C500 VS wheelchair.
I have a dongle and R-net Dealer Permobil software. Unfortunately, this program does not have access to the settings of the OEM-Factory section.
Please tell me where I can download the OEM version of the software?

And more... I have on the joystick displays 3 empty mode (See photo). They very prevent. How to disable them?
Screen-201.png
Thanks.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2019, 09:00

With a generic OEM verion software, you may or may not be able to program the chair. Permobil use a few non standard R-Net parts. They have their own stability/gyro modules. And their own seating modules. So just like pride, can be impossible to program unless you are Permobil. With stock R-Net seating modules etc, you can just turn off the 3 unused seating channels. With permobil you probably cant.

Also my settings above that will make a normal chair with R-Net steer properly will not work at all on a front drive chair with either the stock r-net gyro, or permobils one off arrangement. So avoiding permobil, and pride completely would seem very wise to me. See P.M.
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