PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby AlexAGF » 20 Jun 2019, 09:56

Burgerman, thanks!

I have 2 profiles in the wheelchair - Indoor and Normal.
Speed in the program is also displayed in two sections.
Screen-204.png

As I understand it, I need to edit the ESP section?
And in what section empty modes are switched off?

Can anyone post the recommended settings for front wheel drive wheelchairs?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2019, 10:43

In the sections that you currently cannot access. And if it has permobils own seating modules setup, you cant access it at all.

AS for setting up driving parameters, in the ESP bit. You really cant. I have *never* got any front drive chair with a gyro to drive or steer in any way that I could use. They just cant do it.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby AlexAGF » 20 Jun 2019, 11:08

I got OEM access. Now I see a lot more sections in the program!
I do not need to customize the seat modules. Need to disable or hide empty modes only.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2019, 11:25

You may not be able to.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby AlexAGF » 20 Jun 2019, 12:05

Tell me, why do need Latched Drive parameter?
Do I need to turn it on?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby LROBBINS » 20 Jun 2019, 15:29

Latched drive is for someone using an alternative input device - such as head switches - so that one hit (rather than continuous action) starts a motion and another is needed to stop that motion. If you are using a joystick, you don't want this.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2019, 16:17

Actually it doesent matter on/off as it only has any affect on digital inputs as far as I know. I have seen many with it enabled by default but no switches or digital input device fitted. So it wont actually hurt, but it wont do anything either.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby AlexAGF » 20 Jun 2019, 17:01

I understood. Thank!
Tell me more please what parameters should I change in order to increase the torque at low speeds in order to more easily overcome the curbs?

And is it necessary to edit anything here?
Screen-209.png
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2019, 17:46

Normally you would increase motor compensation SLIGHTLY. TYhis is also a danger. It is a positive feedback loop. So the more amps the controller sees, the more power it adds. Which increases the Amps, rinse and repeat. So if this is already set correctly and you increase it you can easily get a chair that runs away, cannot be stopped. So only mess about with that when you know what you are doing.

You can increase the TORQUE setting. This actually does seem to also increase motor compensation but only at SMALL STICK MOVEMENTS. So around neutral position. So it may help but will make the chair jerky if you add too much at super slow speeds as you turn left, right, or set off backwards or forwards.

If you want to see how many Amps the motors pull, while stalled (threshold/curb etc) so not moving when it should be, look at MOTOR AMPS L and R in the program as you try to climb etc. If it already reaches 120A then no amount of changing settings will do anything to help. That would require a slower geared motor.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby AlexAGF » 20 Jun 2019, 17:48

Burgerman wrote:You may not be able to.
I managed to disable them through the OBP menu.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2019, 18:28

Good. Not sure what you will be able to do with programming with a gyro though. I have tried verything. It always seems to add a delay or respond in a non linear fashion no matter what you do. But front frive is directionally unstable, so you are stuck with a gyro or it wont go in a straight line.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 18 Jul 2019, 12:24

Hi BM - I've been meaning to upload a video for ages. These are your settings apart from the acceleration is slightly less and the deceleration slightly greater. I've been using them for about the last 9 months and they're great. I haven't got particularly good chair control but it performs really well outside and in tight spaces like public transport. And even though it has only 9" castors it's climbs over lumps and bumps well. :thumbup:

I don't really like whizzing round the carpark as it tears the tyres up a bit.

(That was a neighbour that disturbed me part the way through)


youtu.be/6HE55SHNkhs
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby expresso » 18 Jul 2019, 15:24

Scooterman - What rear Tire are you using ? in the video - the size is 300-8 - but what brand tire is it - if you have a link - looks nice for that size. also did it raise the chair up in the rear when you added that tire compared to the stock tire ?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 18 Jul 2019, 16:23

Hi Expresso - These are the tyres https://www.mobilitypitstop.com/product ... lock-tyre/

Re the rear end:

The original tyres were skinny grey solids, with an overall diameter of 12.25" I think?

And the ones I fitted are pneumatic and have an overall diameter of 14".

Re the rear end. I didn't have to change anything as the front tyres were grey solids and a smaller diameter than the pneumatic ones I fitted.

The front tyres are mobility scooter tyres, it's difficult finding 9" diameter pneumatic powerchair tyres. I did try fitting 10" pneumatics but they rubbed on the forks.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby expresso » 18 Jul 2019, 17:57

thanks Scooterman - on my next chair - i may keep the same size but in black - that one isnt bad and keep the stock height of chair -
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 18 Jul 2019, 18:50

Okey dokey :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Thndrwhls » 22 Jul 2019, 04:07

Hey fellas, I just lucked upon a Permobile M300 that was rarely used and only in a house. The batteries were dead volt meter only registered 1 volt. I had a pair of group 24 MKs that I use in another chair that is getting heavily modified in the welding shop right now.

I want to program this M300, it has the rnet PM 120 so good there, except for the fact that Permobile cripples end user programming. So if I have OEM software and a Dongle I can program some settings from what I have read. Does anyone have the OEM software they would be so kind as to PM me with. As for the dongle, I have seen a few on ebay, but honestly do not know what I am looking for, the ones I have seen are 6-700$ so I want to be sure before I buy one, and should I be able to find them for less??? I have uploaded a pic of what I have seen, just want to confirm this is what I need.

As far as Dealer programmers, I have a good relationship with one of the Numotion Service techs here, and feel he would let me dictate the settings I need. Are they able to modify the turning speeds, acceleration, Torque, power, etc... I dont care about the seating, its fine as it is. I just want more torque to climb and better steering control.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 22 Jul 2019, 04:17

You need an OEM dongle, really. As there are walls set up to prevent you setting high enough turn acceleration settings etc. Those may well need to be removed.

The problem is getting one. But see PM.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Thndrwhls » 22 Jul 2019, 13:20

Anyone have a dongle for sale? Or want to rent one out?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 27 Jul 2019, 22:05

Heres a portable, popular chinese lightweight travel chair. It is a nose heavy chair with tiny hard wheels and no suspension. Its only any good indoors or in a shopping centre. It is lithium, using laptop style batteries that burn like fireworks if theres a problem. So be aware! With its joystick too low, and too far to the right for most humans to cup correctly control will be harder. Comfort wont be good.

Notice the 1 full second of delay when he pushes the joystick left and right. That means you will never hit a doorway and will result in YOU over controlling the chair. And trying to correct it when it overshoots. When it ignores your commands. The problem is that these small chinese controllers cannot be reprogrammed as far as I know. And if they can it will be very basic. So this huge delay, and subsequent control issue would prevent me from ever buying one even if I could use one.


youtu.be/fsxAq1U2RYc
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 05 Aug 2019, 01:26

FWIW, while I don't know about the chair in the video, I have seen listings on Ali Baba, etc. for the sort of motor & controller kits that appear to be used on the typical "China Folder" style chairs like the one in the video.... Those listings DO also point to a 'programmer'.....

Most look like the sort of stand-alone hand held units that you see for the usual brands. A few seem to be software and a cable (not sure if it's just an adapter like the Pilot+ cable, or a Dongle like R-net) The prices for the programmers seemed reasonable compared to what they charge for an R-net dongle, although they were almost as much as the motor / controller package...

I have no idea what the actual functionality of the programmers are in terms of what things can be changed - but at least there is a programmer of sorts....

I am sure some of this could be discovered w/ some research and investigation, but I haven't been interested enough to bother....

The challenge I see with the China Folder that you purchase, is that you don't know exactly what controller / motor combo they used, so how are you supposed to figure out what programmer to get???


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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 05 Aug 2019, 02:56

Theres programmers and programmers. And theres well developed firmware and software, like dynamic, curtiss wright, curtis instruments etc developed and fixed over and over for decades, and theres the sort that comes built into a robotics controlles or hobby speed controller. Since the devil is actually very much in the details I would be tempted to run away.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 06 Aug 2019, 04:16

Burgerman wrote:Theres programmers and programmers. And theres well developed firmware and software, like dynamic, curtiss wright, curtis instruments etc developed and fixed over and over for decades, and theres the sort that comes built into a robotics controlles or hobby speed controller. Since the devil is actually very much in the details I would be tempted to run away.


Not disagreeing, (note that I have NOT purchased!) just pointing out that they MIGHT be programmable to some degree, for some definition of programming....

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 21 Aug 2019, 07:21

I hope to go to R-Net soon(if I get a new chair)

Where is the best place to buy a Dongle?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 21 Aug 2019, 07:37

Here. See rover, or buy/sell. Only other place is a secret! PM me.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby terry2 » 21 Aug 2019, 08:34

Burgerman wrote:Here. See rover, or buy/sell. Only other place is a secret! PM me.


Thank you again.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 31 Aug 2019, 11:50

I know what everything in the R-Net and the other PG software settings does. With the exception of the following below.

I know how it FEELS when you change them. I dont know what they are actually doing. And they generally work best left well alone. They appear to change only the very last part of slowing down, or when you just start from a standstill, or begin to turn on the spot. I know that if you set them differently everything generally feels worse... But it would be nice to know what they ACTUALLY change.

I emailed PGDT with this screenshot and asked them. That was 4 days ago. So far, no reply.

Does anyone actually know?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 31 Aug 2019, 12:40

And I just tried calling PGDT who manufacture the R-Net systems, who are a UK company. In fact they make all of the PGDT controllers. And all I get is "sorry there is a fault" over and over. There are service agents, in the US, and in various other places like taiwan. But I am not calling those ones because they dont know much, and cost a fortune long distance! You cant win. This has been bugging me now for 22 years. :clap

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Irving » 31 Aug 2019, 16:10

Burgerman wrote:But I am not calling those ones because they dont know much, and cost a fortune long distance! You cant win. This has been bugging me now for 22 years. :clap

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Why don't you try Skype? International calls to most places are around 2 - 3p a minute. A fiver pre-paid lasts for ages and I make 3 or 4 calls a week to US suppliers.

Of course it means using a PC as a phone :evil: But if you have it on your smartphone it's just like using a phone :lol: :evil:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 31 Aug 2019, 17:50

I have skype, as part of office corp 2019. I dont like it. But its better than the free downloadable one.

In any case all the overseas ones are clueless resellers and service agents.
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