PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby hank » 19 Aug 2018, 19:00

Get you CHEERS :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby hank » 19 Aug 2018, 19:04

Just comparing it to my old pilot plus with 100amp
on pick up czy
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Aug 2018, 01:30

And what did you find?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby hank » 20 Aug 2018, 09:04

Starting off using your settings
Nice and smooth controlled speed noticed more torque.
smooth slowing down when let go of stick.
Pick up quicker. Turns all precise
Other than wheelie from stand still like pilot plus does with them Rnet settings its smooth.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 20 Aug 2018, 09:58

Are you talking about r-net? If so,

Fine tune the TORQUE setting. That adds extra torque only at small stick movements, to aid turning and thresholds. It actually adds extra motor compensation, at small stick movements or low speed as you start to turn or move. So set high it makes the chair jumpy when you first touch the stick, left/right/forwards/back. So reducing it makes it smoother and more "soft" feeling.

And what does it feel like if you set forward acceleration high?
And min forward acceleration high?

Test and let me know.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby cavorite » 24 Aug 2018, 16:45

I want to tune up my Pride Quantum Q6 (Curtis/Enable50) midwheel drive. Will the settings as discussed be OK, or are there changes or other settings to use? If there’s a suggested profile for the Q6, where can I find that?
Thanks.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 24 Aug 2018, 17:35

They will be named something similar but yes as a STARTING point.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby cavorite » 25 Aug 2018, 15:56

Nearly all the settings are similar, but there’s a couple of extra turn settings for rate and sensitivity. Would these be set similarly to the other turn settings? Relevant parts of tech manual quoted below.

-Turn Speed Min: The turn speed min parameter defines the minimum turn speed of the power chair when the speed
potentiometer is at its minimum position and when giving a turn input greater than the center deadband, but not less.
# The settings for this parameter range from 5%—100%.

-Turn Speed: The turn speed parameter defines the highest speed of the power chair when the speed potentiometer is at
its maximum position and when giving a full left or right input. When the speed potentiometer is between its minimum and
maximum position, the achievable speed is linearly scaled between this parameter and a predefined low value.
# The settings for this parameter range from 5%—100%.

–Speed Turn Rate Min: The speed turn rate min parameter defines the highest turn speed of the power chair when the
speed potentiometer is at its minimum position amd when giving a turn input greater than the center deadband, but not less.
# The settings for this parameter range from 5%—100%.

–Speed Turn Rate: The speed turn rate parameter defines the highest turn speed for the power chair when the speed
potentiometer is at its maximum position and when giving a turn input greater than the center deadband, but not less.
# The settings for this parameter range from 5%—100%.

–Turn Sensitivity: The turn sensitivity parameter defines the sensitivity of turns when moving the joystick in the left and
right direction. A higher value represents a stronger reaction when giving steering commands.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 25 Aug 2018, 16:53

No idea! But set each one at a time to min and max and test to find out.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby hank » 25 Aug 2018, 18:55

Burgerman wrote:Are you talking about r-net? If so,

Fine tune the TORQUE setting. That adds extra torque only at small stick movements, to aid turning and thresholds. It actually adds extra motor compensation, at small stick movements or low speed as you start to turn or move. So set high it makes the chair jumpy when you first touch the stick, left/right/forwards/back. So reducing it makes it smoother and more "soft" feeling.

And what does it feel like if you set forward acceleration high?
And min forward acceleration high?

Test and let me know.

Done about 6 miles in chair today with forward acc 100 And min forward acc 100 :thumbup: Rnet 120amp
Much more lively now and responds well.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 25 Aug 2018, 19:50

Thats where all my chairs are set.

On my chairs
forward accel is 100
min forward acc is 100
reverse acc is 100
min reverse acc is 100
back stick brake or fast brake is 90
turn acceleration 100
min turn acceleration is 100
turn deceleration is 100
min turn develeration is 100
forwards decel is 20
min forward dec is 20
revese deceleration is 20
min reverse decel is 20
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby hank » 25 Aug 2018, 19:54

Cheers John much easier and Fun to ride. :clap :clap :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby biscuit » 01 Sep 2018, 14:15

So embarrassing... I think I was struggling with bunny-hopping steering because I waved the joystick around too much by only touching the base! BM you hit the nail on the head. :oops: What a speed queen, I can't deal with 6mph. :lol: That was because my Vienna is 4mph max.

Mind you, it still seems to pull left a bit when I'm going straight at 6. Maybe my tyres are a bit uneven? It's a used chair: every part of it is old.

And it needs far more careful use of the js than my usual sloppy technique to manoeuvre at max speed. I might be making those modifications to the js mounting that BM has recommended - a winter project. Or, horror of horrors, be forced to steer carefully. Walking was never this complicated.

BTW, I (well Google, actually) found a VR2 manual online and discovered the meaning of K10 Programming restriction. Don't set it to on, it is for allowing/disallowing OEM & PC programming.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 01 Sep 2018, 16:33

So embarrassing... I think I was struggling with bunny-hopping steering because I waved the joystick around too much by only touching the base! BM you hit the nail on the head. :oops: What a speed queen, I can't deal with 6mph. :lol: That was because my Vienna is 4mph max.


I see it every day. The reason chairs are programmed like stirring a pudding, by default. Is because the joysticks are in the wrong position, wave about freely, and users do not hold the side of the joystick. Only touching the stick... So no chance of control.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby steves1977uk » 02 Sep 2018, 11:50

That's the typical chair setup I saw everyday back in my college years. I often wondered how do they manage with the JS pod sloping downwards at a 45 degree angle! czy

And it hasn't improved by much these days either unless you DIY! :hammer

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 02 Sep 2018, 12:43

Its a crazy world thats mostly full of ignorance. Usually willful ignorance. And people get angry when you try to tell them, they just dont care because they dont understand anything.

I have long said that as time goes on, people have a greater and greater ignorance of science, basic engineering, and especially physics and logic.

Colleges and universities seem to be just socialist/liberal indoctrination camps. And have degrees or othe qualifications in useless crap or soft "sciences" like human sexuality, art, sociology, media studies, and I spotted one recently on how to have a successful dinner party and I am not joking. The hard sciences are ignored.

This stuff, logic, and physics and how to determine the difference between woo woo and science, and basic engineering principles and materials science (chemistry) should be absolutely COMPULSORY in every school the same as english and maths. It needs to be taught from an early age. Its the foundation of everything you ever do. Even washing your car needs this to not damage it and keep it looking as new.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby steves1977uk » 02 Sep 2018, 13:16

Agree BM :thumbup: Here's a typical example of what I saw in '95-'98...

f45.jpg


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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 03 Sep 2018, 04:45

Note that this user has incorrect hand technique.
Everything I suggest not to do in post 1... So subsequent crap programming, and over control means she cant even go in a straight line.

Theres absolutely no way in hell that he/she will ever have any kind of accurate control. And so the usual impossible to steer delayed action, pudding stirrer programming is essensial to stop her destroying the surroundings. Thats why the user here isnt even able to go in a straight line. The guy almost gets it - has some control. The girl, not a hope. The joystick is in the wrong position, and the programming is best described in polite terms as "vague"...


youtu.be/qGP_xEfAZdc
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 04 Sep 2018, 02:29

In their defense, looking at their hand posture and other motions, it looks like the users in the video were fairly high level quads... They may not have been physically ABLE to do the sort of brace hand on pod technique that you quite properly recommend... At least that is the case with many of the quads that I know personally.

(Although at least some MIGHT do better if they had more competent help setting up their stick positions, and better programming might also give some benefit....)

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby woodygb » 04 Sep 2018, 16:41

Why isn't the joystick made ergonomically to provide better hand position / support?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 04 Sep 2018, 16:44

Answer. Because THEY just dont get it. The manufaturer. Or the users.

It absolutely SHOULD be. Even if that means adding rubberised shaped sides, and even velcro in the case of paraplegics.

I have seen reps at shows driving the same way, with joysticks wobbling around on the end of hopelessely designed super loose "swing away" mounts. Bolted to arms with on the outer edge, 3 inches too low, with 2 inches of side to side free play.

Most of the joystick movement was actually unintentional, caused by the pod wiggling about over the bumps... The rest was in error as the drivers arm wobbled on the armrest top accidentally moving the joystick. Just watch the vid above!!!
But if you add enough delay, and damping, like 2 full seconds in most cases for the full turn response to be applied, you dont notice! But also cant hit a doorway.

They may not have been physically ABLE to do the sort of brace hand on pod technique that you quite properly recommend... At least that is the case with many of the quads that I know personally.

(Although at least some MIGHT do better if they had more competent help setting up their stick positions, and better programming might also give some benefit....)

ex-Gooserider


I would say that both are absolutely ESSENTIAL.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby woodygb » 04 Sep 2018, 20:30

Would you think something like this is acceptable?

Image
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 04 Sep 2018, 20:46

Well its better, and must be chair mounted rather than loose, I would think. But its too short and wouldnt give the required accuracy of sick position for me. You need to be able to decide to use 3mm of extra stick in a turn or to control acceleration accurately etc. And there should be a selection of ways to do this. Because every quad is different here. Most likely couldnt grasp that shape.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby woodygb » 04 Sep 2018, 21:49

In this scenario you negate the problem of pod / hand / thumb disconnect caused by bumps ,loose chair arm etc by NOT having it chair mounted ...

Last year I made one for a young lad that was twisted / deformed ...sorry I do not the correct term ... , his hands could not control a std joystick and thus he had no autonomy .... he was however adept at playing games and the Wii Nunchuk ( plugged into an OMNI ) provided a solution.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 04 Sep 2018, 21:56

Yes technically. But it would feel odd like not having the steering wheel connected to the car! But I do this with RC...
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 07 Sep 2018, 00:24

Another example of WHAT NOT TO DO!!!

Page 1

http://www.invacare.co.uk/sites/uk/file ... INX_UK.pdf

She will NEVER have any control.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby cavorite » 07 Sep 2018, 06:05

Getting familiar with my Quantum Q6 before trying any changes. Most settings look familiar, but a few are puzzling. There are 4 Drive profiles; here is a list of parameters for each:
Image
Note the max/min turn rate and turn sensitivity.

Here are the default (and current) settings for each drive profile. (The fifth profile is used for seat settings.)
Image
Looks like the width got trimmed a bit, but most info is there.

Advice welcomed.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 07 Sep 2018, 09:05

Set the 4 turn acceleration. Turn deceleration, and min turn dec and min turn accel all to sat 70 and test. If its good, turn them all higher. Not sure on your controller, but those are usually best set to max, 100.

Set turn rate to whatever is controllable or correct for you. Look at my settings for a guide above, but change ONE setting at a time till you understand how it feels and what its doing.

As it is on your image, it will never hit a doorway.


As for the others, set each to how you want it to feel. Suggest you read starting post 1, very slowly. And just change one profile.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 11 Sep 2018, 04:57

It would be nice, but rather difficult as ergonomic for some is a nightmare for others.... Try using a pair of scissors or an 'ergonomic mouse' designed for a right handed person with your left hand....

Add to that the 'individuality' of our different disabilities, and how that might affect how we might need to position our hands or where support is needed.... It seems like you'd pretty much have to make a custom pod for each user - possible, but would require a pretty sophisticated supply and ordering chain, not to mention things like modern manufacturing technology...

The current 'universal' design with optionally different joystick tops is something that at least sort of works reasonably for anyone that is able to use a standard joystick.....

ex-Gooserider

woodygb wrote:Why isn't the joystick made ergonomically to provide better hand position / support?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby cavorite » 12 Sep 2018, 01:10

Burgerman wrote:Set turn rate to whatever is controllable or correct for you. Look at my settings for a guide above, but change ONE setting at a time till you understand how it feels and what its doing.

As it is on your image, it will never hit a doorway.


After some experimentation, things are looking good. Haven’t hit any doorways. I see that it’s both your physical dexterity and your subjective preference for “feel” and response. Some prefer Rolls Royce, some prefer Porsche. Manufacturers prefer Yugo.

While I am stuck with 22NF batteries, the controller is 100 Amp and the motors are 4 pole. My worn out batteries are not pleased, but I am very happy with my chair’s new personality.

Big thanks to you, BM, for the on-target advice, and to woodygb, who had ALL the answers on the programming setup.
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