PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2018, 01:13

Manufacturers prefer Yugo.

Hovercraft.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 28 Oct 2018, 13:52

Sorry this has probably been asked a squillion times before. But is the r-net dongle too difficult to hack? I.E. Make a DIY version? I'm guessing it is otherwise Woody or a-nother would have done so by now. I'd buy a DIY one, but PGDT want big bucks, that's if you can even find somewhere selling them direct to the public.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 28 Oct 2018, 14:27

No, you must buy. You can get away with a dealer one as theres a workaround that allows OEM access regardless.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 02 Nov 2018, 22:46

A secondhand dealer/therapist one came up on eBay this week, I bid on it today but missed out :(

I emailed Curtiss Wright in the week, but received this reply. It was no more than I was expecting, but I thought I might as well ask.

“Dear Sir, Thank you for your enquiry. The programming tools are only available for Dealers and OEMs trained in their use. They are not available for end users or their families.”

I'll just have to keep on looking. There seems to be a really high demand for the dongle, there were loads of bidders for it.

Able bodied society seems to think disabled people are numpties and can't be trusted to have access to a few basic settings to make a chair more bespoke to our needs. I'm surprised we're even allowed to buy pneumatic tyres and alter the tyre pressures ourselves.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2018, 01:03

“Dear Sir, Thank you for your enquiry. The programming tools are only available for Dealers and OEMs trained in their use. They are not available for end users or their families.”


They told me this in 97. I re-adjusted their viewpoint a little. Now they sell me whatever I want. They never used to refuse dealer /user level dongles. Thats new. They likely read here and figured out we can get OEM access with the dealer level! Pathetic though. They just alienate themselves from the person that will now have the buying power if this WPB thing ever gets going.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 03 Nov 2018, 01:25

When I enquired with CW, I told them I'm familiar with their S-Drive software and want the dongle to dumb down the speed and acceleration settings of a nervous first time powerchair user. I thought a bit of reverse psychology might work. IT DIDN'T! :cussing

CW's reply said that they'd provide me with the name of a r-net licensed dealer near me. They haven't to date, and I'm not holding my breath.

There is a dealer near me who's probably got a dongle, but they're a very flashy high end (mainly manual chair) shop and I know they wouldn't be interested as I didn't buy the chair from them. I live in and around the home of the british army and I'm sure the shop earned shedloads of dosh flogging WCs and related equip to Help For Hero's injured soldiers. They sell a lot of them high end lie down WC bikes, carbon fibre chairs, trike attachments, etc
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2018, 01:47

You SHOULD be able to buy dealer level from any dealer. They are or were intended for use by users too. They used to be on the prescription form on most chairs. For what its worth I have met 3 dealers that were all "trained" and were "allowed" to program the chairs. All of them without a hope in hell of getting it right, or understanding a damned thing they were doing or what affect it would have. This is AFTER supposed training (a day trip jolly with cake and coffee).
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 13 Nov 2018, 20:44

Hi,
I'm in the process of copying BM's recommended R-Net settings... This is the first time I've attempted R-Net programming

The OEM factory settings were easy to match to BM's settings. I've done that but have not attached a screenshot as it's pretty straightforward.

I've still got the speed settings to adjust but likewise that seems pretty straightforward.

But being used to an S-Drive with no profile options, I was a bit unnerved seeing lots of different profiles.

There were several profiles enabled in "Profile Management" so I disabled them all but one: Profile No.5

TWO QUESTIONS:


1) Should I leave the profile settings as they are in the screenshot?

2) I don't understand what the "Configuration Modes" are. Should I leave as is?

My chair is Salsa R2 and has lights and indicators but no actuators. But for weight saving reasons I unbolted and removed the lift/tilt & powered backrest recline.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 13 Nov 2018, 20:50

READ post 1, 2, 3, 4 etc.

CAREFULLY. As you have it it wont steer.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 13 Nov 2018, 21:11

Burgerman wrote:READ post 1, 2, 3, 4 etc.

CAREFULLY. As you have it it wont steer.


I've just read right through the whole thread again and tried to follow your guidelines.

1) The joystick is positioned the same as your's and mounted rock solid on a rigid armrest.

2) I've removed the Nazi Walls from the OEM Factory and matched yours.

3) I've still got to do the speed settings, acceleration, turn, etc, but that is easy enough.

But the thing that puzzles me is:

4) Do I copy your "profile management" settings, you've not highlighted them in yellow?

5) Also what about the "configuration settings"? Do I leave as is?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 13 Nov 2018, 21:59

4) Do I copy your "profile management" settings, you've not highlighted them in yellow?
5) Also what about the "configuration settings"? Do I leave as is?

Depends what you want, what you are trying to achieve, how many profiles you want or need and why, and what equipment you have plugged in.

Ask one setting at a time because theres a zillion options and combinations. Dont change stuff you dont understand, ask first!

Also you can read in the manual for r-net about what/how. It tells you everything!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 14 Nov 2018, 09:48

Burgerman wrote:
4) Do I copy your "profile management" settings, you've not highlighted them in yellow?
5) Also what about the "configuration settings"? Do I leave as is?

Depends what you want, what you are trying to achieve, how many profiles you want or need and why, and what equipment you have plugged in.

Ask one setting at a time because theres a zillion options and combinations. Dont change stuff you dont understand, ask first!

Also you can read in the manual for r-net about what/how. It tells you everything!

Hi John,
Thank you for the manual I think I understand a bit more now, I got in a bit of a flap cos it's a lot different to S-Drive.

The modes confused me as my chair is just 'drives' there's no extras on it apart from lights. But it doesn't matter if all 8 modes are selected [12345678] because they're not active unless a new module is plugged into the chair.

I understand fwd/rev acc and dec, fwd and rev speed etc. They're very personal so I might not match your settings exactly as I'm not as experienced and use the chair differently to yourself.

THE REASON I WANTED TO REPROGRAM THE CHAIR IS TO MAKE IT STEER MORE RESPONSIVELY. The OEM setting is a bit woolly.

Am I correct in thinking to achieve more responsive steering the FOUR values that matter most are the:

Max turn acc
Min turn acc
Max turn dec
Min turn dec

I shall try setting all four to 100% and test driving it
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Nov 2018, 10:03

Set forward deceleration low like 25? Most are way too high.

And yes those 4 above to max. Then reduce max and min turn speeds if its too touchy for you. Also the TORQUE setting if set too high makes the initial movement too jumpy. It add motor power at very small stick movements...

In all cases MIN refers to tiny stick movements or low speed setting. MAX refers to full stick or maximum speed setting.

THE REASON I WANTED TO REPROGRAM THE CHAIR IS TO MAKE IT STEER MORE RESPONSIVELY. The OEM setting is a bit woolly.


A bit? Ya think! :lol: czy Dont you mean undrivable?

AND EVERY CHAIR is exactly the same. hanged
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 14 Nov 2018, 10:11

Thanks :thumbup:

I'm a bit more confident now. The basic speed settings are very similar to the S-Drive speed settings. The difference is the turn settings, modes, and profiles. But I think I understand now. I shall report back later how I get on.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby foghornleghorn » 14 Nov 2018, 11:31

Where did you manage to purchase a dongle?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 14 Nov 2018, 15:31

foghornleghorn wrote:Where did you manage to purchase a dongle?

Hi I didn't, someone loaned me one for a few days.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 14 Nov 2018, 15:39

Burgerman wrote:Also the TORQUE setting if set too high makes the initial movement too jumpy. It add motor power at very small stick movements

Yes the chair is quite jumpy. I didn't quite understand what the torque setting is for. Would you say 50% is a good starting point and increase/decrease if necessary?

I hoping to get it to be a responsive chair but not a jumpy jerky chair. Jerky movements wobble my legs about and upset my knees :ambulance
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 14 Nov 2018, 15:42

PS: In all the time I've had the chair I've never pulled back on the joystick. I thought it might break something? The fast brake is set to 80% so maybe it's just as well I haven't pulled back on it.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Nov 2018, 16:51

Why? Watch my fingers.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4

That torque setting increases speed of response by adding power at very low speeds. Like as you start to move or as you start to turn in place. It makes it jump on the first bit of stick movement. There IS no starting point. Other than off. 0. It does this I think by increasing Motor Load Compensation, at tiny stick movements or low speeds only.

Add more if you want to make it start a turn in place more reliably, or set off more sharply. Add less if its too jumpy.

If its STILL too jumpy at 0% reduce motor load compensation as well by say 5mOhms. And test.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 14 Nov 2018, 17:02

Will do :thumbup:

I get very nervous watching you driving like that, I keep on thinking you're going to crash into a doorway.

Re torque, I will do as you recommend. BUT if I can ask... I assumed low torque would mean I wouldn't be able to climb over the smallest obstacle at low speed.

And to tackle obstacles at high speed would hurt.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Nov 2018, 17:15

It is all a compromise. The settings that work on your chair, with your weight and rearward CG CORRECTLY for your requirements will be a very narrow set of parameters. And different for every chair and user. And what YOU must do is understand what each does. And test and adjust to get it to behave as you require. That takes a month of testing/adjusting every parameter one at a time over and over till you know what it does. And a year later you will still want to fine tune a few things. And 2 years later you will figure something else out that you can do to improve something. I never hit anything, ever, in 21 years incidentally. Even the dog. He has figured out to run away as in that doorway. One look and he reversed back into the bedroom. I drive at 6mph or so with only the rear wheels on the ground every day, most of the time. I am fine tuned. I only know one way to do it. Others think I am mad.

Thats the slowest responding chair, with knackered lead batteries, and with a 80A controller, and so doesn't respond accurately.
I am worse (faster and more loony) in other chairs. As such going through a narrow doorway, at 6mph with front wheels in the air is perfectly normal behavior here. But its only safe if the chair responds properly, instantly and is programmed to be accurate. For eg, I cant hit a doorway if the battery is half discharged. With lithium, however, its all easy, as theres no voltage "sag" when you try to correct your line.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby foghornleghorn » 14 Nov 2018, 18:03

Sounds like you should be wearing a crash helmet while test driving these settings and have someone on standby to rescue you from being eaten by the cat in 3 days times when it doesn't get fed because you tipped over backwards and got stuck :shock:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Nov 2018, 18:11

Dont have a cat. :fencing

Change ONE setting at a time. Set it very low. Set it high in stages, LEARN WHAT IT DOES. And once you get it, set it where you think its best for now, and move on to the next ONE.

ONLY ONE setting at a time, do the same. Set it high. Set it low. Play until you KNOW and understand exactly what it does. Unsure? Ask here! Set it where its doing the right thing, for now, and do so only when you totally understand what it is doing.

Then the next one... :geek:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby foghornleghorn » 14 Nov 2018, 18:15

Cat - unless I'm getting people confused, Scooterman does have one.

I'd be eaten by the dog much sooner than 3 days. She's got a 16:30 alarm that goes off in her stomach and thinks she is going to die if she doesn't get fed RIGHT NOW!
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Nov 2018, 18:19

Yes I had one of those. Gets very keen with built in clock. Comes in and stares at you. If you dont move in 10 seconds. Or look away. Loud single bark. Then runs into kitchen. Comes back 2 mins later. Nudges your arm off the chair. Gives paw. Bark. Runs into kitchen. Rinse and repeat. Gets more and more "urgent" if you ignore. Same if want to go walkies, or into garden for a 10-100.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 10:42

foghornleghorn wrote:Cat - unless I'm getting people confused, Scooterman does have one.

I do, Harry the Cat. :D
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 10:49

hank wrote:Done about 6 miles in chair today with forward acc 100 And min forward acc 100 :thumbup: Rnet 120amp
Much more lively now and responds well.

Burgerman wrote:Thats where all my chairs are set.

On my chairs
forward accel is 100
min forward acc is 100
reverse acc is 100
min reverse acc is 100
back stick brake or fast brake is 90
turn acceleration 100
min turn acceleration is 100
turn deceleration is 100
min turn develeration is 100
forwards decel is 20
min forward dec is 20
revese deceleration is 20
min reverse decel is 20

These values are insane :ban
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Nov 2018, 10:55

You set them how you need them. But once you can drive the thing, those are actually not insane. They are just not the pudding stirrer settings you are used to.

Reduce forward acceleration to a level YOU are comfortable with.
Reduce turn speeds and minimum turn speeds to turn at a speed YOU are comfortable with.

Leave turn acceleration, turn deceleration, and the min turn acc and min turn decel alone. Lower motor compensation a touch if its too sharp or jumpy for you. Adjust each setting SEPARATELY and test its effect.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 11:07

I'm getting there.

So far I've got

max turn acc 90%
max turn dec 90%

max fwd acc 50%

torque 50%

But I've got the:

min turn acc & min turn dec set much slower.

I've learnt the max turn acc/dec stops the chair slowing too much when corning at full speed outside. When it was set slower the chair used to really slow down when corning flat out, it was frustrating.

But with min turn acc/dec I've set it low to stop the chair whipping round at 1 bar led. Fast turns when slow/stationary upset my knees because my legs wobble about (no muscles).

But I've got the dongle for a few more days so will fine tune and perhaps change a few more values. I've also activated OBP in case I get an LCD joystick in the future.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Nov 2018, 11:18

Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others
Scooterman » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:07 am
I'm getting there.

So far I've got

max turn acc 90%
max turn dec 90%

Set to 100 both!!!

max fwd acc 50%

As per your choice.

torque 50%

Set ZERO and increase after you set everything else how you want it. LAST.
But I've got the:
min turn acc & min turn dec set much slower.

SET 100 ALL. Or at slow speeds you will float around like a hovercraft after about 10 beers. Theres should ALWAY be set to 100.

I've learnt the max turn acc/dec stops the chair slowing too much when corning at full speed outside. When it was set slower the chair used to really slow down when corning flat out, it was frustrating.

But with min turn acc/dec I've set it low to stop the chair whipping round at 1 bar led. Fast turns when slow/stationary upset my knees because my legs wobble about (no muscles).

Because you set TORQUE to 50. And because you have turn speed and minimum turn speeds set too high. Set those to a speed that doesn't upset your legs. If that will no start a turn in place when on carpet or grass, THEN add only as much torque as required
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