PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 11:22

Thanks I will do as you advise and post my revised settings later.

PS Thank you for helping and giving me your time i appreciate it :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 13:06

Hi John this is where I'm up to now. You were right it's fine with all turn acc/dec at 100% if torque is set to 0%. I've got min turn speed at 15% as well which is okay for the legs.

Next is it max and min dec that I need to reduce. Until yesterday I never knew the chair would brake if the stick is pulled back That's why I left it set at medium settings, otherwise the chair overran and I crashed into things, not good. :ambulance

. But you are right in that over tarmac bumps at max speed my hand jolts and must release pressure on fwd stick causing the chair to brake slightly. It's probably acerbated with me having a less mass?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 13:24

Everything I'm doing at the moment is with the EL90. Once sorted I will replace with the PM120 and write the EL90 values to it.


But I assume I need to up the current values for the PM120 ?

NB: Salsa has 4-pole motors and knackered 60Ah sonnenschein which will be replaced with mininimum 75Ah MK Gel or lthium budget allowing.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 14:30

New speed settings. I'm not very good at pulling back on the stick so for now I will leave the fwd dec settings as they are in attached photo. But practice with the back stick so I can reduce fwd dec if need be before the dongle goes back.

But I'm pretty pleased with how the chair drives now. I particularly notice how much better is drives at speed and also it's not as lurchy, clunk clunk everytime I start from stationary.


That's one of the main things I didn't like about the chair. As the power delivery was smoother on my scooter, but now the the torque is set to 0% the chair isn't as clunky.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Nov 2018, 14:54

Try with motor compensation reduced to 40mOhm. Everything should be smoother, and you are light so should be OK.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 15:14

Burgerman wrote:Try with motor compensation reduced to 40mOhm. Everything should be smoother, and you are light so should be OK.

Will John thank you.

I just swapped controllers. The EL90 for the PM120.

I've written to EL90 settings to the PM120

But the software won't allow me to increase the PM120 maximum and boost currents to 100A and 120A respectively.


But if I re-write the PM120 original settinngs back to the PM120 then I can change the max and boost currents to 100A and 120A.


But I'm worried the other motor settings are wrong for my motors.

NB: The PM120 is off a Quantum Sport 600HD


See attached,
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EL90 vs PM120.PNG
LEFT = EL90 RIGHT = PM120
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Nov 2018, 15:38

Use the original, and CHANGE all the settings.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 15:45

Ah!

Do you mean print out all the 90A settings.

Then one-by-one change all the 120A Quantum Sport settings so they mirror the 90A Sunrise settings. But change the motor max and boost currents to 100A and 120A respectively as it’s a 120amp controller

Is that what you mean?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 16:19

I managed to up the currents on the 120A.

I managed to edit the 90A motor current settings using the generic r-net software instead of the sunrise. Then it allowed me to change the motor current.

I also change the motor comp to 40%


When you get time can you have a scan through the 120A settings r-net file https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u6BThE ... sp=sharing

I'd really appreciate it :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 16:57

These are the 90A settings which are indentical except for the motor currents which are 80A and 90A respectively.

I must say I can't really notice any difference between the two controllers. If anything the 90A seems very slightly quicker but that may be my imagination. Changing controllers between test runs it's hard to judge the two controllers side by side.

90A settings

https://drive.google.com/open?id=16JZyV ... P0I2sqcZu1
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Nov 2018, 17:07

The ONLY time you will see any difference at all, is at high torque or high Amp situations.

Ramp climbing power. Turn in place in difficult situations. Curb climbing. And roll back occuring later when worked hard like climbing a long hill, or 10 mins driving like I do. Digging yourself out of a hole, pushing something hard.

Ultimately you will have 25 percent more max torque.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Nov 2018, 17:12

120A one looks OK. You might get a little more speed out of it if you set motor> voltage from 21.something to 23.5 though. Although this works much better with lithium.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 17:30

Burgerman wrote:120A one looks OK. You might get a little more speed out of it if you set motor> voltage from 21.something to 23.5 though. Although this works much better with lithium.

Thank you I will try that tomorrow. :thumbup:

Also there is a very steep footpath near me and and out of curiosity I will try timing a couple of uphill runs to see if there's any difference between the controllers?

I was thinking that as the combined weight of me and chair isn't much, plus the rearward seating postion, whether the motors don't need to pull a lot of amps during normal use?

Also the batteries aren't in good shape. Could they have a high resistance and not be supplying enough current to tax either controller?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Nov 2018, 19:29

There wont be. Once above about 1mph theres zero difference. The ONLY difference is in stall torque. The sort of speed that will get you up a curb from stationary. Or trying to turn in place, and its stuck, where the 120A version will not be.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 15 Nov 2018, 20:17

Thanks :thumbup:

I've got to put it on charge in a minute and I'll do some test runs tomorrow. I'll try some stationary kerb climbs to see if the 120A gives me more oomph.

I think either controller is fine for the chair and me. I'm just pleased the 120A could be programmed, I thought the software might be 'locked down?'

Plus the 120A was a good price and it's good to have two controllers in case one goes kaput :hammer
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 16 Nov 2018, 14:14

Hi John,
Out of curiosity I did two uphill runs and two flat runs with each controller. The runs were virtually identical. Any discrepancy was probably me starting and stop the stopwatch.

Image
uphill 90A

Image
flat 90A

Image
uphill 120A

Image
flat 120A
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 16 Nov 2018, 15:21

Because you are nowhere near the 90 or 120 AMP limit on a normal hill. So there can be no difference there.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 16 Nov 2018, 15:36

I've finished the programming now and am really happy with the results. Out of curiosity I increased the "max turning speed" from 30% to 50% but it was much too twitchy on the stick, I was snaking down the footpath. I put it back to 30%.

The chair is so much better now, and having two controllers programmed the same (apart from motor amps), if one goes kaput I've always got a spare.

Thank you for bearing with me and helping me get it dialled in, I appreciate it :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 16 Nov 2018, 19:23

Its better but not dialed in. I still make adjustments and sometimes change things quite drastically as I realise what is wrong YEARS afterwards. It takes longer than a few days to get it right. Esp as you become more capable, and start throwing it about. Then fine details are all important. So you better keep that dongle! :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 16 Nov 2018, 19:33

Burgerman wrote:Its better but not dialed in. I still make adjustments and sometimes change things quite drastically as I realise what is wrong YEARS afterwards. It takes longer than a few days to get it right. Esp as you become more capable, and start throwing it about. Then fine details are all important. So you better keep that dongle! :thumbup:

I'll pretend it got lost in the post (only joking ice!). Anyhow you tipped me the wink re how to aquire my own. ;)

And I totally agree with you regarding fine tuning the progamming over time. It was the same with my manual wheelchair, it took me several years to fine tune the seat height and COG. That's why if ever I bought another ultra-light manual chair (which I won't) I wouldn't go for a fully welded non-adjustable chair. Because with a manual tyres, seat cushion, and the user's changing ability/disability affects set-up.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby ICEUK » 16 Nov 2018, 20:31

glad you got it dialled in, I have got to do my FWD puma, that will be fun, I nicknamed the chair the "fish tailing bastard"
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 16 Nov 2018, 20:37

ICEUK wrote:glad you got it dialled in, I have got to do my FWD puma, that will be fun, I nicknamed the chair the "fish tailing bastard"

Thank you. I might be able to get it back in the post tomorrow morning special del insured (someone is supposed to coming round). If not I will post it on monday..
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 16 Nov 2018, 20:54

learning all the time


Me too.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Scooterman » 21 Nov 2018, 17:27

The dongle has gone back but I'm still happy with the controller settings. :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby funchairguy » 14 Dec 2018, 05:28

I need some experienced help.

I reprogrammed my PG Drives VR2 mobile recliner and turned up the forward acceleration and changed a number of other things. Now it works beautifully. Now it actually feels natural. Before it felt like like you had to learn how to drive it. It is much faster to boot. No longer the ultra slow program.

The notable flaws in the programming that I fixed were:
1) Front wheel drive rate was set to 50. This was odd since the module came from a FWD chair. I set it to 100 as my recliner is fully FWD with a long wheel base.
2) minimum accelerations were 75. I set that to 45 which made the joystick more like a throttle and easier to control.
3) Turn deceleration was way too high. It was way higher than the turn acceleration. When the top speed was limited, you never really noticed it. When you turn the speed up, the chair will throw you around due to the turn deceleration. I turned it way down.
(FYI, The VR2 module came from a Hoveround Teknique FWD)

I played it for a while and really love the new program so I saved a copy.

I loaded the program in another chair that I just finished building. The new chair is physically identical to the first one.

Now I need some advice from the experienced veterans here.
The new built chair has a tendency to go into sort of a runaway situation in a turn with the highest speed selected on the joystick. It doesn't always happen, but when it starts to turn too fast, I push the joystick forward or to the opposite side. This causes the chair to accelerate in the turn instead of going forward or the other direction. This is the exact thing that would happen on an invacare M41. I picked that one up for cheap, fixed the batteries and sold it. It is interesting that chair would do the same thing occasionally when in the highest joystick speed setting. Is this a fluke in the design or is there a parameter that I need to adjust?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Dec 2018, 11:28

Set turn accel, and decel to max. And min turn acc and dec. Anything else leaves a load of delay in the steering input, and reduce turn rate or speed until comfortable. Or it will never hit a doorway.

The control situation you experience is physics. You cant fix it. It because you are using front wheel drive with casters on the rear which is an unstable configuration. Just like throwing a paper aeroplane backwards. Of expecting a flag to be able to point upwind. Its the reason I wouldn't ever want a front drive chair. Hoverounds are for older people that go slowly mostly indoors.

But looking at the position of your joystick I think you have other issues to sort out irst. Please read the first few posts here. Carefully!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8035
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby woodygb » 14 Dec 2018, 13:37

The new chair is physically identical to the first one.

Exactly the same motors ?
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Dec 2018, 14:13

I missed that. Motor compensation will be set incorrectly too.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby funchairguy » 14 Dec 2018, 14:20

woodygb wrote:
The new chair is physically identical to the first one.

Exactly the same motors ?

Yes, exact same motors.
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Re: PINNED - PROGRAMMING - Make it steer! R-Net + others

Postby funchairguy » 14 Dec 2018, 14:25

Burgerman wrote:Set turn accel, and decel to max. And min turn acc and dec. Anything else leaves a load of delay in the steering input, and reduce turn rate or speed until comfortable. Or it will never hit a doorway.

The control situation you experience is physics. You cant fix it. It because you are using front wheel drive with casters on the rear which is an unstable configuration. Just like throwing a paper aeroplane backwards. Of expecting a flag to be able to point upwind. Its the reason I wouldn't ever want a front drive chair. Hoverounds are for older people that go slowly mostly indoors.

But looking at the position of your joystick I think you have other issues to sort out irst. Please read the first few posts here. Carefully!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8035


I'm not sure how physics explains why the wheel accelerates in the wrong direction with respect to joystick position. Also, I noticed this happening on a M41 wheelchair which is a center drive.
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