2015 Permobil F3 ICS Seat Lift Error

[F3Head]

Hello,

I'm looking for some advice. I am an early adopter July 2015 Permobil F3. The chair has tilt/recline and the elevator option. I'm having an ICS seat lift error flashing occasionally. The problem appears to be when I tilt the chair forward. Upon tilting the chair backwards with no errors or problems, I hit my egg switch to tilt the chair forward again and the chair starts to tilt forward and stutters or stops while tilting forward or to the upright normal driving position. It is while tilting forward that I see the ICS seat lift error flash. If I tilt forward very slowly or in stages, the error does not occur. I checked the joystick log under ICS and sure enough I have 100 seat lift error messages logged.

Interestingly I had this chair repaired in May 2017 for a Permobil seat tilt issue (squeaking while tilting). Basically it was recalled and repaired by Permobil and Ringuy set the repair up for me at no and charge under warranty. It was then April/May that I noticed the tilt forward stutter/stop issue but no error messages at that time. The first question is how concerned I should be concerning the ICS seat lift error? I don't want to open up a new can of worms getting the chair fixed if it's not really an issue. However, 100 ICS seat lift error messages is unnerving. I did a little research on the forum here and on my and I came up with this…

Permobil ICS Seat Lift Error:
- ICS System needs to be restarted, please cycle wheelchair power. Master Error. 6 .... Seat lift. Actuator is not moving or moving too slow. Seat Lift Error. 16. 20C6 .... Contact Permobil Customer Support for help if needed. ICS Onboard Configuration - Permobil Permobil ICS system needs to be restarted.

I recycled the power by turning the chair off at the main breaker for 10 minutes or so and restarted the chair and I still get the error messages.
I'm hoping to send the snapshot bitmap/gif to show you what was repaired and replaced. Here is the firmware versions from diagnostics on the joystick.

Diagnostics
PM 2.5
JSM 2.12
Unknown Module 2 1.9
ICS 3.9

First, how many error messages in the joystick is too many?
I'm not 100% comfortable in the repairs by NSM. I'm not sure how skilled they are. I'm leery of making the problem worse.
Should I bite the bullet and have them replace the ISM or what? Typically it takes a while for them to order the part and then have time for the repair.
Peace of mind is worth a lot. Does anyone have any idea what the true problem or cause of the ICS seat lift their may be?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

F3HEAD

[skylarjoehill.h]

It looks like both the AP Elevator and ICS Master Module were replaced but still could be defective.

Who did the repair and did they calibrate the actuators after?

Calibration instructions: page 72 https://permobilus.com/wp-content/uploa ... _v8_us.pdf

[F3Head]

National Seating and Mobility sold me and repaired the chair and supposedly recalibrated the chair. Oddly enough, or maybe not oddly enough,
the seat elevator doesn't appear to work as it did before I got it repaired. Now when I go down, it stops, re-settles itself, and then does the same thing repeatedly until the chair seat is fully down. But I don't see any errors doing this… I am loathe to let them check or do the chair repair and calibration again because of their ineptitude before. Thank you for the PDF. I'm speculating you will need a programmer to do it?
I wouldn't know how even if I had a programmer.

Hopefully some of the other more experienced forum members can give me some advice.

Thank you,F3HEAD

[Burgerman]

The problem with permobil is that they use their own in house seating module/setup and you cant really fix it. It ties you to their parts/programming/dealer/experts... One reason not to buy permobil. They are getting like pride.

[skylarjoehill.h]

Calibration is simple and you do not need a programmer. You just cannot be in the chair during calibration! Can you send me a video of the issue? I sent a PM with my email address.

Here are the calibration instructions:

National Seating and Mobility sold me and repaired the chair and supposedly recalibrated the chair. Oddly enough, or maybe not oddly enough,
the seat elevator doesn't appear to work as it did before I got it repaired. Now when I go down, it stops, re-settles itself, and then does the same thing repeatedly until the chair seat is fully down. But I don't see any errors doing this… I am loathe to let them check or do the chair repair and calibration again because of their ineptitude before. Thank you for the PDF. I'm speculating you will need a programmer to do it?
I wouldn't know how even if I had a programmer.

Hopefully some of the other more experienced forum members can give me some advice.

[F3Head]

Thank you very much for the help Skylar. I have the PDF all printed out and I'll try to do a trial run to see what happens before doing anything.
To your knowledge, I can't hurt anything by trying can I? I'm also going to check out Permobil's YouTube channel to see if there is a video demonstration.

Now I have something I can try at least…

I just don't want to hurt anything.

Thanks, F3HEAD

[skylarjoehill.h]

To my knowledge, it shouldn't hurt anything. You cannot sit in the chair and shouldn't have anything hanging on the chair (bags, backpacks, etc). I would also make sure there is adequate space around the chair (at least 4-5 feet or more).

[Rye]

So you get a seat Lift error when yo're tilting forward? Have you examined under the seat for any wires getting pinched when tilting forward?

[F3Head]

I have not. But that's a wonderful idea to check out. I never thought of a possible pinched wire.
I have an evaluation appointment with National Seating Mobility next week.
I can't afford to have my chair down for any length of time. If it needs parts though be able to order it while chair is still functioning.

F3HEAD

[F3Head]

Well I took my chair to the NSM dealer last week. I was surprised because I got a reasonably good tech guy.
I'm still having an issue with the seat-tilting function. I'm still get an ICS seat-lift error, only on the way back to sitting upright normal driving position. In fact, I have over 99 errors. I believe the joystick only logs 99 errors at 2 digits. That's a problem. It's a problem if I can't clear it because it doesn't roll over and future error messages are still labeled as 99. The tech guy did exactly what Skyler suggested and reprogrammed the chair with the buttons on the back of my chair using the same technique as described by Skyler. However, of course, after getting the chair home
the next day the ICS seat-lift error returned. Apparently the error log cannot be cleared. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?
I'm set to return to the NSM dealer tomorrow. Any thoughts on clearing the error logs in the joystick? Can it be done through the joystick or at all?

Thanks, F3HEAD

[Burgerman]

Is it an R-Net error log? They are easy to clear. Unless your "expert" only has the dummy user dealer version...

You just click "clear error log"... At least you do if you have a proper OEM programmer.
What you actually have there for a tech it seems, is the "delivery boy, with some duct tape and a ".

See below.

LOGS > LOG > CLEAR LOGS will all be black and visible once a controller is connected. And clear logs, 1 click.

[skylarjoehill.h]

What 4-digit error code is showing up? An example is 40A2.

[Burgerman]

And theres a LOT of stuff in the fancy Sunrise seating menu, take a look. Includes forward tilt, timed stuff, etc. With memory positions, actuator clashes, and a lot of other stuff. If you cannot get a Permobil OEM version, I suspect you are screwed. And you wont get one I dont think. One chance. The Sunrise version sees and understands it. And so lets you make changes.

Heres a few opened up:

[F3Head]

Oddly Skyler as I see it, it flashes so quickly, it just says ICS seat-lift error. If I look towards the right bottom corner or anywhere else for that matter I don't see an error code. Just the words ICS seat-lift error and the error counter in the joystick log is maxed out at 99 errors.
Like I mentioned before it only happens on the way down from a tilt downward, it happens with the mini cup switch or the joystick.
As I tilt down at speed, it flashes the error and stops for a moment. I have to press the switch again and it will continue downward for a short way
and then repeat and stop. Afterward the chair returns to the level position with no errors. Strangely it happens less when I have a full charge on the batteries. It almost seems like a voltage issue. I'm afraid tilting back and getting stuck in that position!

Thank you all, F3HEAD

[F3Head]

I'm not sure if it's in R-Net error. All I have to go by is the error that flashes on my LCD screen. Subsequently it shows up in the joystick log.

F3HEAD

[skylarjoehill.h]

As you're tilting forward watch the bottom right. It's quick but if you can see the "ICS seat-lift error" you should be able to see the code (just watch for the code and not the message). If you see the code let us know what it is.

Also, if the seat is elevated does the error show up when lowering it?

[F3Head]

Well for anyone who may be interested. Here's an update on my Permobil F3 ICS seat lift error. I made it to the shop yesterday with same technician. Typical for my luck when I have to go somewhere and be there it rains. Nasty downpours and tropical humidity just to make my day. Well this time the technician took the chair outside of my view and put it up on the lift. From here he said he reseated wiring connectors under the Corpus 3G seating system. He said he gave the wiring harness more slack so that when I tilt back or reclining it doesn't put pressure on the wire harness and connector. He felt it wasn't seated properly. He auto-programmed the seat once again as Skyler wisely suggested. Afterward he ran the chair up and down and tilted it 20 times or so without any errors. I did the same thing to the chair when I got it and tested it myself.

The next day after I took the chair off charge I started to see the error messages again while tilting back. Unfortunately, I am still getting the error code in the top right corner of my joystick. It now appears to be a different code. The best I can determine the error now is as follows. 20C2 tilt seat left -no motor can't be detected, check motor and cable seat left error-remedy 13.

Previously the ICS error code was Permobil ICS Seat Lift Error: - ICS System needs to be restarted, please cycle wheelchair power. Master Error. 6 .... Seat lift. Actuator is not moving or moving too slow. Seat Lift Error. 16. 20C6 .... Contact Permobil Customer Support for help if needed. ICS Onboard Configuration - Permobil Permobil ICS system needs to be restarted.

I am leaning towards ICS module. I think a resistor or something is going bad and limiting the power more than it should. NSM technician wants to try new main seating system harness and seat lift motor. I'm still open to any and all suggestions and comments if you have them!

F3HEAD

[Burgerman]

Dont get a permobil? All this ICS stuff is complex and only fixable by them. And they cant.

But it sounds like a wild goose chase.

[F3Head]

Hello All,

Well for anyone who is interested here is how they fixed my Permobil F3 ICS joystick tilt/elevate motor error message. I waited a few weeks
to make sure the repair was good. The problem as some suggested was due to a failing tilt/elevate motor. Lucky for me the part held on and didn't fail
until it was replaced by National Seating & Mobility. It took about an hour for the tech repair guy to replace the motor and belt and reset the chair's electronics as discussed in the previous follow-up messages on the board. The rest was just waiting for the tech guy to test it few times. I've included part numbers in the graphics below in case anybody wants to go to eBay and cross part numbers for their own repairs. Out of my pocket my 20% co-pay was $127.00. Waiting for the explanation of benefits from my insurance company to see the full cost. So far so good…

Thanks for all the help, F3HEAD