Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

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Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Scooterman » 16 Jul 2018, 18:34

Hi, this summer I've been doing longer trips on my big scooter (2x75Ah Gel).
IMG_1015.jpg

The batteries are the original generic sunrise batteries, about 2 1/4 years olds.
IMG_0629.jpg
IMG_0627.jpg
I use the scooter all year round and would imagine in the next year they will want replacing. Lithium definitely seems the way to go, but it's sooooooo confusing. I intend to keep the scooter for some time to come and don't want to replace the existing batteries with heavy lead-acids.
I would also be interested in replacing the (2x60Ah) gel batteries in a 'secondhand' powerhchair I recently purchased.

There's two questions:

1) Is there anyone on this site who builds (or would be interested in building) lithium battery packs to order? I know it sounds lazy of me, but I wouldn't mind paying a premium to save me the hassle and possibly 'ballsing up' the build. Or me ordering the parts and then realising it's much more work than I realised, and the parts laying unassembled in a box. That would be a waste of money! :oops:

2) If not option numero uno, is there a dummies guide on this site or a-nother? I've found this but not read through it cos I woke up at 4am and am a bit lollopy http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/convert ... ithium.htm
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jul 2018, 18:39

The only practical way is to DIY and learn. Anything else is likely to end with problems. You need to understand. Its not quite plug and play yet. But its not hard either. And theres 101 ways to do it. Start by building an addon, and doubling range of your lead. Plug in extra range! Then like expresso, you will UNDERSTAND whats needed to do the full battery..

Get 8x 60Ah cells as he has, and copy his thread. To begin.
Or order some from shirley that we know are good. Or use the plastic case ones as they are easy to work with.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8023
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Scooterman » 16 Jul 2018, 23:12

Burgerman wrote:The only practical way is to DIY and learn. Anything else is likely to end with problems. You need to understand. Its not quite plug and play yet. But its not hard either. And theres 101 ways to do it. Start by building an addon, and doubling range of your lead. Plug in extra range! Then like expresso, you will UNDERSTAND whats needed to do the full battery..

Get 8x 60Ah cells as he has, and copy his thread. To begin.
Or order some from shirley that we know are good. Or use the plastic case ones as they are easy to work with.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8023

Hmmmmm, I didn't think of an add-on, that's a good idea. :worship. I'll be able to squeeze maximum use out of my lead-acids with the reassurance of the lithium add-on to get me home, I like that! Plus as you also say it's a good learning project.
Thanks for the link, I'll just have to make the effort and try to get my head round it over the next few days. I'm sure I should be able to grasp it if I put the effort in :thumbup: .
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby flagman1776 » 17 Jul 2018, 21:34

In looking at your scooter images... it appears that one of your existing Lead Acid batteries is cross wise & the other length wise. How big are your battery trays? Length, width height. What battery case size is in there now.
With power chairs, space is at a premium. With a big scooter a rectangular cell might be more efficient use of space. LiFePO4 cells like the Winston http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=30 or other Calib. Different brands have different sizes.
It takes time to play with the dimensions & see what will fit.
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Scooterman » 18 Jul 2018, 16:20

flagman1776 wrote:In looking at your scooter images... it appears that one of your existing Lead Acid batteries is cross wise & the other length wise. How big are your battery trays? Length, width height. What battery case size is in there now.
With power chairs, space is at a premium. With a big scooter a rectangular cell might be more efficient use of space. LiFePO4 cells like the Winston http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=30 or other Calib. Different brands have different sizes.
It takes time to play with the dimensions & see what will fit.
Thank you for that.
I agree in the photo it does look like one of the batteries is cross-wise but it's not. Both batteries are mounted lengthways in line with the scooter, if that makes sense?
Are my batteries what are known as Group 24?
The batteries fit inside the steel box section chassis, with a steel plate beneath them. The box section is slightly longer than the batteries and you can see where the scooter manufacturer has inserted a foam packing strip. Also between the two batteries is the scooter seat post (not shown in the photos). That's why there's a 2.5 inch - 3 inch gap between the batteries.
I will have a proper measure up and post the dimensions here. But it might not be for a little while as I need someone to lift the scooter seat off for me, so I can lift the body work off and access the battery compartment.
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby flagman1776 » 18 Jul 2018, 18:16

GROUP NUMBER: 24 DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 11.13" Length x 6.60" Width x 9.25" Height.
Cases can vary slightly in outside bumps.
If the battery tray is larger, that's good. The hardest part is figuring the height under the cover. My Wrangler scooter also has a seat pedestal in the middle.

If your battery tray is oversize, it may accept the GROUP 27 size.
GROUP 27 DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 12.00" Long x 6.63" Width x 9.06" Height
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby flagman1776 » 21 Jul 2018, 14:11

GROUP NUMBER: 24 DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 11.13" Length x 6.60" Width x 9.25" Height.
group number 24 dimensions converted to mm 282.27mm L x 167.64mm x 234.95 H

GROUP NUMBER 27 DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 12.00" Long x 6.63" Width x 9.06" Height
group number 27 dimensions converted to mm 304.8mm L x 168.4mm W x 228.6mm H

I was working with the dimensions of China sourced cells last night to see what can fit in the dimensions box.
I can easily find prismatic cells to replace GRP 27 * 90ah rated lead AH with 100 ah LiFePO4... in fact it'll fit in the GRP 24 space as well.
This particular 100ah cell dimension is 36mm L x 130mm W x 200mm H
A 4 cell group would be 36mm X 4 = 144mm * 130mm W x 200mm H remain unchanged 12.8 volts nominal.
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Burgerman » 21 Jul 2018, 14:49

GROUP NUMBER: 24 DIMENSIONS IN INCHES*: 11.13" Length x 6.60" Width x 9.25" Height.
group number 24 dimensions converted to mm 282.27mm L x 167.64mm x 234.95 H


No.

260mm x 173 (but many are 170) and depending on the letters after the size, about 220mm, 235mm, 240mm tall. FT is 210 to 220 tall.

Officially:

24H 260 x 173 x 238 or inches: 10 1/4 x 6 13/16 x 9 3/8
24R 260 x 173 x 229 or inches: 10 1/4 x 6 13/16 x 9
24T 260 x 173 x 248 or inches: 10 1/4 x 6 13/16 x 9 3/4
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Gnomatic » 21 Jul 2018, 17:51

Starting with an add-on is a good idea. You get to know your charger, cables needed and how to make them etc. And more importantly, understand how and why the whole system us set up and works.
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Scooterman » 22 Jul 2018, 18:39

Sorry, but I'm going to ask the question. Apart from maybe price why can't for example two of these be used in place of two lead-acids in a home-built lithium battery pack? It even says they can be charged with existing lead-acid charger?

I'm not thinking of my scooter, I was just doing some googling.

There's obviously a reason as folks on WD aren't stupid (apart from yours truly czy ) and wouldn't go to the trouble of building a lithium battery and buying a dedicated charger, if you can buy an off-the-shelf 12v lifePo4 and use a lead-acid charger?

I'm guessing the answer is that the battery in the link is nowhere near as good as the ones WD folks build from individual cells?

http://www.allbatteries.co.uk/lithium-i ... l9141.html
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Burgerman » 22 Jul 2018, 19:02

OK here goes for the umteenth time... :cussing

Its a 65Ah battery. So SMALLER at the 24 hour rate than the typical 70 to 80Ah GRP24 so most of the RANGE ADVANTAGE lithium can give is simply lost.

So you spend a lot of money for very little gain, then overwork the cells so they dont last long... To give you an idea, shirley is using 200 plus Ah, my chairs are 120 Ah or bigger, and about to be 160Ah in the salsa. Expresso is using 135Ah (90 plus addon) and snaker is using 160Ah.


- Continuous discharge current: 65A

In a R-Net chair for eg, we often need 120A PER MOTOR while turning. So its internal BMS will cut off power instantly. You stop.

- Maximum continuous discharge current: 100A (<3s)
As above, the R-Net can do 2x 120A per motor (240A total) 10 seconds as you climb a steep ramp or turn on grass.
Whats more taking this many amps from a small 65Ah pack means you will have a very short service life ... Even if it could do it. Losing out on the lifespan advantages. But it will chop off the power to save itself...

The technology of this battery differs to that of your original battery (lead acid battery) but it is completely compatible with your device. It can therefore be installed without needing any further modifications. Your original battery charger which was designed for use with lead acid batteries will also be 100% compatible with this new lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery.
This battery is equipped with a BMS protection circuit which protects the battery from short circuits, overcharge and deep discharge. This BMS also balances the cells to guarantee better battery life.


If the pack was large enough all the protection circuitry that causes the problems would not be required. So no cutting power off, no failures, no fires. And the BMS charging is a huge problem as it does a terrible job compared to the PL8 and so you will never get that 2000 cycle servivce life. Or half of it, in practice. Yes it allows a dumb charger. Thats its only advantage.

- Performance: Twice as powerful as a lead acid battery even at high discharge.
Define powerful? 65A???
My lithium BM2 pack is 10C peak and 5C continuous and 120Ah so 600A continuous and 1200A peak. My LEAD PC1500 can do 1500 Amps pulse (10 secs) and has 1000 cranking amps!

SUMMARY.
It will repeatedly cut out and stop your chair as you load it.
You will not get more range, unless you discharge it fully, and then you will get a much shorter lifespan.
It isnt cheap, and will likely have BMS reliability and cell failure issues as the Ah isnt up to the job.

Bigger lithium packs will fit in the same space if you do it yourself. And instead of 1C cells you can use higher rated cells. And so you will be treating the cells gently, and charging properly. And so it will last 7 to 10 years, and give 4 or 5 thousand cycles used in this way. With no cutting out, no fires, no reliability issues.
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Scooterman » 23 Jul 2018, 01:36

Burgerman wrote:OK here goes for the umteenth time... :cussing
Thank you for the explanation for the umpteenth time :oops:

I understand now. I remember you saying once before that one of the big advantages of lithium is that the equivalent lithium Ah occupies less space than lead-acid, so more Ah overall in same space. More range, more grunt, and that's a lot of charging cycles! :biker

PS: I like the new forum layout, good idea separating pinned posts from non-pinned. :thumbup: Was it one of my suggestions? ;)
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jul 2018, 10:33

Also read this FIRST POST slowly. And follow the links.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1813
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Scooterman » 23 Jul 2018, 11:56

Burgerman wrote:Also read this FIRST POST slowly. And follow the links.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1813
Will do thanks :thumbup:

I did start reading the post in the link before I started this thread, and thought that's what I want to know! But then when I noticed it was written 2012 I thought it might be out of date so didn't carry on past the first paragraph or so. Sorry, I will read it.
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jul 2018, 12:03

During the 6 years, mostly what has happened is that lithium got cheaper, and more cell size and c rate options appeared. But the rest remains the same. And always will, lithium isnt a battery, put part of a thought out system/envoiroment. Its not like lead, needs some planning and thinking to get the results. Lithium can be amazing. Or a massive problematic expense with low reliability and of little of the huge gains in cycle life and range that is actually possible.
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Re: Lithium to order? Suits you sir!

Postby Scooterman » 23 Jul 2018, 12:05

Burgerman wrote:During the 6 years, mostly what has happened is that lithium got cheaper, and more cell size and c rate options appeared. But the rest remains the same. And always will, lithium isnt a battery, put part of a thought out system/envoiroment. Its not like lead, needs some planning and thinking.

:thumbup: cheers
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