Bounder Chair - 100ah lithium

[Burgerman]

Read from 2 posts above or page before. MORE TRAIL is MORE STABLE.

Set trail to 300mm or 1 foot. Which isnt practical obviously.. And you can do 70mph!

[expresso]

ok lets see if this is correct now -

this picture - its one hole back on the fork now - would bring the tire closer to me in the sitting position and further away from the center pivot

is this picture correct to try first ?

[expresso]

i lowered the PSI quite a bit already - i will try maybe a bit more - also want to soften the ride a bit - i wont go below 15 PSI front and 25 PSI rear -

i have it now at 20 PSI front and 30 PSI rear - which is alot less than what it came with.

[Burgerman]

ok lets see if this is correct now -

this picture - its one hole back on the fork now - would bring the tire closer to me in the sitting position and further away from the center pivot

is this picture correct to try first ?

Yes

[expresso]

Once a month verify that the casters do not flutter. The 12-position adjustable forks can usually be set so that no dampening is required to achieve flutter free operation. For these forks, moving the front wheel axle bolts back and down in the fork usually eliminates flutter.

BM - this is from the Manual - moving it back sounds like what you suggested - it also says down in the fork. -

that means what ? sounds to me they suggest moving the position back and down lower on the fork which would bring the front end up ?

or does it mean to lower it which means using the top hole position and bring the front end lower down ?

i will ask to just move it back as the last picture i posted leaving it in the same row of slots - on the fork - not lower or higher - just back one ?

i still dont see how this can work with 60PSI as they suggest - mines came with 44 rear and 41 front - Way too high for comfort -

[Burgerman]

that means what ? sounds to me they suggest moving the position back and down lower on the fork which would bring the front end up ?

Raising the front of the chair this way also increases trail. So yes.

Look at the orange line here. Raising the front of the chair, also angles the caster barrel, and so introduces "rake" like a motorcycle or bicycle. Angling the caster barrel, by lifting the front, INCREASES trail just like moving the wheel back towards you by moving that bolt. So lifting the chair at the front or lowering the rear, adds more directional stability to the caster.

Here, it is used on a car (all cars) to give trail. To make the steering self centre as you drive forwards. Same as a bike.

[expresso]

i see - which do you suggest i try first - just moving it back one slot - same row ?

or like this picture - which will raise the front a bit - i like to leave the front alone if i can instead of raising it -

[Burgerman]

i see - which do you suggest i try first - just moving it back one slot - same row ?

Yes.

[SweetBearCub]

Greetings, expresso!

First, would you please tell us all how you managed to get typical US insurance to pay for what they consider to be a 'Group 4' chair, and with the ~$5K upcharge lithium batteries too?

Second, I read the entire thread, and it seems that you don't care for the Bounder at 11.6 MPH to handle hills or bad pavement, both of which are common here in San Francisco. Is that essentially correct?

I was considering the Bounder 300M, but I also have the option of getting another Quickie S-636, and I can always get the upcharged 8.5 MPH speed package and the 120A R-Net electronics.

[Burgerman]

Heres how that works...
All chairs. Provided a powerful controller (100/120A) conform the the same basic laws of physics give or take a few percent. This is always true no matter what brand of chair... SO:

-4mph gives great battery life, and range, and tons of torque and control. 4 pole usually sold as HD. But drives the user mental. Its REQUIRED to make a chair controllable with a heavy bariatric user. Faster speeds do not work.

-6mph gives the best balance of battery life, and range, ad control/performance. And offers almost as good control and torque as above. (slightly less torque/range than above). For an average weight user this IS the best balance. Or for a medium/heavy chair. Faster does not give adequate control, or range.

-8mph gives worse battery life due to much higher discharge rates and deeper levels, and HALF the torque of the 4mph chair. And 33% less torque than the 6mph chair. Its OK on flat ground, and with LIGHTER users! As long as you also accept the lower torque and less accurate control may be frustrating. So worse for for control, ramps, zero turns etc. And considerably less range.

-10mph or faster, is a step too far. Slows severely on hills, has just half the battery range. Rapidly needs new batteries, and very low to inadequate torque for control or zero turns. So inadequate torque for zero turns, curbs, or proper control. Very frustrating to use if you like a chair that does as its asked. Eats batteries at very high rates at indoor or low speeds. Or on hills. Causes thermal rollback very easily due to double the Amps required at all speeds. So while its easy to use taller gearing to get higher speeds its very unwise!

[expresso]

Greetings, expresso!

First, would you please tell us all how you managed to get typical US insurance to pay for what they consider to be a 'Group 4' chair, and with the ~$5K upcharge lithium batteries too?

Second, I read the entire thread, and it seems that you don't care for the Bounder at 11.6 MPH to handle hills or bad pavement, both of which are common here in San Francisco. Is that essentially correct?

I was considering the Bounder 300M, but I also have the option of getting another Quickie S-636, and I can always get the upcharged 8.5 MPH speed package and the 120A R-Net electronics.

Hi - Ok its a bit complicated of course - i spent a year in the making to get the bounder and yet i still made one mistake - to tall gearing - my mistake - but its not something you cant undo - gear chain set change and reduce speed - of course insurance wont cover that now - so its up to me if i want to do that.

each insurance - managed care company you are with has there own rules requarding whats covered or not etc etc, appeals - Medicare alone dosnt cover it - -

about the speed which everyone seems to want - and i did and still do also But like BM has always said - its a trade off - how much of a trade off are you willing to accept. may depend on a few factors - how heavy are you is one - i am about 165lbs - i like the fast speed of the bounder on flat ground - its fine and i can deal with it

but the hills - steep ramps - its not good and drains the battery alot even lithium 100ah isnt enough on the bounder - where if you had a 636 646 with 100ah in there - that changes everything - i know i have a 646 and i can do 10 with it - and works fine for hills - ramps flat ground etc, even at 10 - if the bounder worked the same as my 646 on hills - it would have been fine - but it dosnt .

the 300M you would and can get covered - would be 6mph - so you wont have the hill issue - or battery drain issues - unless you have lead which is what you most likely will get covered - - you can always make your own lithium pack and fit 160ah to 180ah in there instead and you be fine with range - speed etc,

if you did get the itch to get more speed - you can on your own change out the chain sprocket set and have 7.5 mph or 9 etc, - it goes on so you can tailor it to what works best for you .

you said you have a lot of hills - i would say stick with the 300M in stock form 6mph - and take it from there first - you may be very happy with the power on hills etc, and may be fine with the 6mph also - i may end up reducing my speed to the lowest i can do on my motors which is 9mph and i expect it to be much more use able then. i have to wait and see how next summer works out the way it is - but i rode it a few times already and its a bit disappointing in the range and hill department - with the current top speed gearing.

the chair is heavy - so you have to factor that in - then the user - i plan to use my chair as is for a summer maybe if i can manage - and take it from there - if i had to do it over now - i would start low and then decide if i wanted to go faster - i did it backwards because i am used to speed already - 6 is too slow for me - 9 is comfortable and works fine - even 10 on the 646 works just fine for me - if you are 250lbs or more - things can be different on any chair - bounder would be affected the most since its already heavy.

another thing to consider - on the 300M - you get the 90A controller - so if you wanted to up the speed - it may require an upgrade controller for sure if going to much faster speeds - i think you can do a 7.5 to 9 with the stock 90A controller - maybe - Rnet 120 is really 100A and only 120 for about 2 secs if needed

the Rnet 120 didnt work on the bounder for the taller gearing - - they could have used it on the 300M though i think would have been nice. what ever you do - demo the chair alot first . 636 at 6.5 isnt too bad - you can add lithium and make some adjustments - you can get that chair to 7.5 easy that way and have alot of power you wont have to worry on hills.

just dont rush - demo - demo and demo - think and decide whats most important to you - i wanted the speed but was blinded by the light i guess and turns out its a bit faster than my 646 - but not too much i dont feel - so i made a bad choice with gearing - once i fix that - it will be fun to use

[foghornleghorn]

the chair is heavy

Any idea what it actually weighs? I can't seem to find it written anywhere.

[SweetBearCub]

As far as the references to the Bounder 300M at 6.0 MPH - I don't want to pay for a new chair that goes slower than my current chair at its base speed of 6.5 MPH, unless there are significant advantages that outweigh that small base level speed loss.

I'd be very interested to see a novice-level write up on how you managed to switch the 636/646 from the typical 22NF/24 batteries (I get group 24's) to 150 AH or more of lithium, and how you keep them charged up, especially with an eye towards the higher draw of the 8.5 MPH/120A speed upgrade package.

[expresso]

i dont know either - its build like a tank - solid - everything is wielded - everything is Steel - and its a good thing also - motors are HUGE - and have to be heavy - i would think - to be safe i would say its at least a 100lbs more than any other chair - it can be i would say at least 300lbs - up to maybe 350lbs ?

batteries - not sure if its included - lead would add easy 110 lbs - lithium is 65lbs - it can also be around 380lbs with lead installed - i recall remembering that number - must have been told to me a while back maybe - i am just taking a guess - i dont think its far off though -

on my lighter chairs when i checked my weight etc, - me and the chair was about 450lbs - on the P222 chair - with the ADD ON also - and thats a light chair - but you never know - sometimes you be surprised and not as much as you may think - 100lbs is a safe number - over the other chairs - then you add the user on top of that -

they recommend on there speed charts - only users under 150lbs should be considered for the top speed 11.7 - feels great though i am about 165lbs - not much over - - for users up to 250lbs - they recommend 10mph - my friend is getting the same chair in a month - he wanted top like me but they gave him 10 only

which i told him - hes lucky he will be better off - maybe - because i think hes more than me in weight - but we see - he dosnt know how much he weights - in the summer - we can ride and then i can see how his chair handles the hills etc at 10 mph - i can get a better idea for myself also -

but since i am going to have to use my own money now - i would just want to get the lowest i can which is a 9 mph in my case - 9 mph is a decent speed and not too slow at all - i can live with it - if it can restore my bottom end - i be happy - i wont do anything till i use it in the summer first - and i be curious to use my 646 against the his bounder - i am confident i will not only keep up - i may be a tad ahead - we see

[expresso]

As far as the references to the Bounder 300M at 6.0 MPH - I don't want to pay for a new chair that goes slower than my current chair at its base speed of 6.5 MPH, unless there are significant advantages that outweigh that small base level speed loss.

I'd be very interested to see a novice-level write up on how you managed to switch the 636/646 from the typical 22NF/24 batteries (I get group 24's) to 150 AH or more of lithium, and how you keep them charged up, especially with an eye towards the higher draw of the 8.5 MPH/120A speed upgrade package.

its alot easier than you think - you can do it - there are sections here on that with pictures - the 636 and 646 is the same chair really - if you have a group 24 battery tray - thats all you need - using some of the newer style of lithium cells - doing the math to make sure they fit - - its even easier now using 16 Cells instead of 56 Cells etc, with headways -

you have to read slowly and ask questions if you dont understand - i am sure - BM and others here can answer them correctly - much better than me for sure - i do what i can - i am no expert though - but one way or another - i figure it out with help from here also - i am always seeking advice - matter of fact - my friend she just got the 636 also with the 8.5 motors - first thing we are making the Cable to charge with SB 50 and connect her ADD ON she will be using. long term - she has the option to make a full in the chair pack also - she helped me when i made mines also -

[expresso]

if you really liked the 300M after you demo it - you can ask if you can get a chain sprocket set for 7.5 mph - you may have to do it yourself after you get the chair - but you want to find out from bounder if they have a 7.5 set for the 300M - on there website - it shows the speeds they offer with different chain sets etc,

but they also show different motors are used on some of them - theres an off road package - which uses lower gearing and different motors instead of my motors - question would have to be and you need to find out is - with the 300M stock - what options do you have if you wanted to go 7.5 mph what chain sprocket set can you use on the 300M without affecting anything else -

just a simple chain sprocket and thats it - you may have a few options that way - i just dont know for sure - so you have call and ask for sure - i will ask for myself also now - just to be sure in case theres other options for 8 or 8.5 for my chair - i know for sure on my motors ST3 - they show on there website - 9mph being the lowest

if you want off road package - then they use the ST4 motors - larger and lower gearing the most you can get there is i believe 7.5 mph - you have options at least and not stuck with one speed if you choose to change - but it will cost you - so have to think about it - i made the mistake and its going to cost me now if i want to change. i kept saying hey you live once - and thats true - my vision was a bit narrower than it should have been. i should have known better also - but hey - we make mistakes - i will always make them - learn and move on - life is too short to worry about it now - too cold me for or else i would have been out there going full speed

[expresso]

I think the wheel flutter is solved - went out today first time since we changed the position - and i tried to make it happen and nothing - i was just around in the city- didnt have much open road - was cold also - PSI is down to 15 front 25 rear - still stiff compared to my 646 - but was better and i think i leave it there -

i was liking it much better today - i think i need more time riding - speed felt great - and chair is fine - its really just steep hills - some not so steep hills where its sluggish - i will use it first before even considering changing gearing - its not going to be my everyday chair - so i may be able to deal with it . first i will tackle the range with 80ah ADD ON - cant wait for that -

i used the first slot you suggested BM - one back same row -


also the camera height is better now since i have it mounted higher up - perfect height - not the smoothest videos giving the chair is stiff -- but isnt too bad -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-4YVO- ... e=youtu.be

[Burgerman]

Theres a rat in your friends knee!

[expresso]

you mean her dog

thats quickie - we just made her ADD ON Cable yesterday - came out nice - will work on her ADD ON pack next - and then attach it -

[shirley_hkg]

Theres a rat in your friends knee!

And it made that cracking noise ? . . . . Can't live with it myself .

[Burgerman]

And it made that cracking noise ?

Well it would. Thats a dog called quickie, and they are connecting it to a lithium pack with a cable.

you mean her dog
thats quickie - we just made her ADD ON Cable yesterday

[steves1977uk]

That made me laugh! Poor dog though.

Steve

[hank]

expresso
Check your friends chair in video camber or left rear wheel
looking from behind compared to other side doesnt look right
Anything loose or worn.

[expresso]

expresso
Check your friends chair in video camber or left rear wheel
looking from behind compared to other side doesnt look right
Anything loose or worn.

Ok will check - i didnt notice or see anything - could be the anti tippers which are on the ground ? they will adjust them to keep them off the ground an inch or so -

[expresso]

Theres a rat in your friends knee!

And it made that cracking noise ? . . . . Can't live with it myself .

not sure what cracking noise everyone is hearing - i have to watch it again - - the dog was making noise ?

i think the noise you hear is just the city cracks bumps from my stiff chair - the camera picks up all the sounds - unless i mute it - thats how its going to be in the city - chair is not soft ride - it has road feel to it - not soft and mushy - on flat smooth ground its great - any little cracks bumps etc, not so great - not as soft as my 646 thats for sure - but its fine - its not as bad as it sounds either -

[steves1977uk]

Probably wind expresso!

Steve

[expresso]

yes some wind for sure - but the chair does make noise over cracks and bumps etc, its much stiffer chair overall - this is how the city is - always under construction - cracks bumps dips - broken curb cuts - this chair is best on smooth ground flat - you have road feel - it sounds worse then it really is riding in it -

i have to go slower in the bounder in the city because of the stiffer feel - 646 can soak all the bumps cracks easily compared to this. it felt much better to me - no wheel flutter so far and getting used to how to handle it with people around - have to be careful - the foot plates are steel and can hurt someone if you hit them - unlike my other ones are plastic - can still hurt someone - dont want to do that - so i am taking it slower with this chair till i am out in the open road where the fun begins

[Burgerman]

He was joking. Wind in the UK is also gas... As in eating something that gives you some gas to expell...

[expresso]

He was joking. Wind in the UK is also gas... As in eating something that gives you some gas to expell...

Oh Ok - haha - the chair is stiffer than most chair i have had so far - my friend will get his next week - curious to go riding with him to see if his feels the same to him - next chance i get - i may lift the chair and check the forks if they feel loose some or not - being a short frame - you will get a stiffer ride - but the sounds i feel are coming from the front -

some were coming from the rear anti tippers - which i resolved for the most part - along with adjusting the chain - moved tire back one on the forks - tighten up a few other bolts on the seat lift - motor etc, - i felt they flexed a bit as i used the lift going up and down - checked the SB120 connectors - they come apart nicely - checked volts to be sure - thats where my ADD ON will connect to. all good -

next chance i get - i will check a bit more and front forks - they have small little springs as shocks in the front forks - and it can be those also that make some noise - not sure they can be adjusted - will take time to learn all the ins and outs of this chair - maybe many years of using it and expereince with it - since i am the only person who has one - cant compare just yet - very soon i will be able to compare my chair with my friends -

according to the Review of the 300M from that guy Normally Norm i think - i dont agree with how soft or quiet the suspension is - unless him being heavier could help dampen it more or its my chair - something loose - i seen other videos and do hear road noise also similar - on camera audio it picks it up sounds much worse than it really is when riding - but its there for sure -

[Burgerman]

I think the wheel flutter is solved - went out today first time since we changed the position - and i tried to make it happen and nothing -

i used the first slot you suggested BM - one back same row -

It wasn't really my suggestion, it was really just what basic well understood physics said would work. Its never wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_physics