Lubricate the powerchair parts

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Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Fedor » 11 Sep 2018, 20:45

Recently a strange "knocking" sound appeared in my powerchair, somewhere near the motor. It was a rhythmic knocking, which sometimes disappeared. The sound was at any speed, even the smallest. At the same time, it was impossible to determine the source of the sound. I really tried! Maybe a motor, a wheel, a bearing, an axle, I even thought about suppression. After the research, I decided that most likely the sound emits a motor or gearbox. I started thinking about replacing the motor. As a last hope, I took the WD40 and applied it wherever I could (mostly I was concerned about the axles of the wheels). A few minutes later the knock was gone and after 2-3 long trips did not appear. This surprised me very much, because the knocking sounded really like a breakdown. Later, the dealer confirmed that the sound is more like a front wheel bearing, not a motor.

Why did I create this subject? First, in such a situation, try to do the same! Secondly, as far as I know, WD40 perfectly cleans the surface, but is not the best as a lubricant. So I would like to know which lubricant is better to carry out periodic maintenance of the powerchair? After this incident, I think many parts and places really need it.
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Burgerman » 11 Sep 2018, 21:02

There sould be nowhere that needs lubrication. All bearings, and movng parts are lubricated.Suspension needs grease in its moving parts. Bearings should be sealed like gearboxes. And greased for life. In the event the manufacturer was cheap, and used shielded zz type bearings on casters then only there, should you apply a few drops of thicker oil like engine oil onto the specific spot. After a few mins wipe any excess away. Or it collects fibres and dust which is the opposite to what we want.

WD40 is neither good for cleaning and its not a lubricant either. In fact I have yet to find anything its actually any good for! If I ever see a mechanic with any I run away.
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Fedor » 12 Sep 2018, 14:09

However, the WD40 solved my problem. Maybe temporarily, but this suggests that somewhere there was excessive friction and pressure, perhaps because of poor-quality lubrication of the manufacturer. I also saw a video on Youtube, where the motor was lubricated and its noise became lower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9lbWY3RAkI (starts at 7 min)

The only question is that WD40 is not a lubricant (I did not have another). At the same time, there are a lot of different lubricants on the market, different types for different purposes. Synthetic, organic, silicone; for gearboxes used in drills, lawn mowers, and so on. I would like to know what is better to use for our specificity.
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2018, 14:25

As I said, lithium grease inside suspension bushes. Requires dissasembly if no grease nipple was fitted. And the only other parts that need lubrication are caster bearings if the manufacturer stupidly fitted metal sheilded types, instead of greased for life rubber sealed ones. As some do. Motors and gearboxes are all sealed and greased for life.

Those zz sheilded caster bearings need something like motor oil, very accurately applied in one spot only if dry. Literaly one drip, applied with an oil can carefully. Nowhere else needs any lubricant of any kind, so not sure where you are spraying it. But if caster bearing is noisy are likely to be at end of life and so best replaced with sealed rubber sheilded ones anyway.

Theres no reason to spray oil anywhere else! And many reasons its unwise.

Your link shows the same thing as a caster bearing.
Manufacturers are stupid. They fit sheilded bearings inside an oil free motor! Those need oil. They run dry and wear out otherwise. They are assembled with some oil, but are not sealed. So it escapes, evaporates, dries out. So when he add lubricant it runs quieter (for a week!).
They SHOULD fit rubber sealed bearings instead, and those are sealed, grease packed, for life. They dont let dirt, water, in or grease out. Why dont they use them? Because motors are sold on "efficiency". The non greased/sealed ones dont spin as freely. So you lose about 1% on motor efficiency and sell less motors... But they last long enough to outlive the warranty. Theres 2 in every motor. Usually you cant access or replace either without a major strip down.

Difference is this:
ZZ metal sheilded bearing IS NOT SEALED just a metal cover with gaps around the outer edges for drainage and no seal at the centre, so another gap. These are supplied with traces of oul. Designed to run in an engine or gearbox where oil is present, no grease..
And the one next to it with a BLUE RUBBER OIL SEAL is actually sealed, the blue bits are oil seals. And those come pre packed with grease which lasts the life of the bearing and keeps water or dirt out.

Heres one of each and both are IDENTICAL apart from the seals and grease:

Image
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby expresso » 12 Sep 2018, 19:03

Would it be wise to add some lithium grease to the Motor hub when new motors get installed with new hubs -

the motor shaft the hub slides on - would that be a good idea ?

reason i ask is because the old hubs - originals are stuck there - only way to remove them would be maybe a Puller - to bang it off - the nut that holds the hub is fine - that removes - but the hub dosnt -

being i am having new motors and hubs installed sometime this year it seems like for ever - should i add some lithium grease so the hub dosnt stay stuck on next time i need to replace them ?
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2018, 19:15

Yes. Even better a very light smear of copper grease. Small tube from amazon will last you forever. But any grease will also help a lot. Greasy or oily metal doesent corrode.

Then they come apart as easy as the day they were assembled many years later. The manufacturer should do the same with every bolt, thread, sleve, shaft like axles, etc. But of course why should they care. If its all seized solid they sell more parts. £$

I take all my new chairs apart, and rebuild properly.
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby expresso » 12 Sep 2018, 20:06

ok thanks - i already have the lithium grease never used - will add some there this time - and maybe on the bolts that get screwed back from taking the motor out etc, - cant hurt - will spray the contacts on the PM also at the same time -

Manufactors dont care - they want to sell a new chair in 5 years or so - they just make them last just enough to be able to replace with insurance - the motors dont last that long if chair is really used - i heard stories and from users who hardly use there chairs - needed new motors - they were shocked mines lasted 4 years

but only really used hard and long range once i did the lithium - will have a spare set now to have ready - this may be the last covered from insurance work done on this chair - so i have to maintain it now - hopefully nothing goes wrong other than tires and motors - i can deal with that now i have a spare set -
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2018, 21:31

Just so you know, the biggest thing that hurts motors is high amps. It causes all the torque and gear wear. It burns brushes and commutators. Causes cush drives to fail. Heats up motors and damages parts. It also demagnetises the magnets faster, and causes the most gearbox wear.

High amps do not happen on a long distance run. The high speeds, flat out are where your motors experience the least heat, least wear, least damage.
What does the damage?
Indoor use. Left/right/ short accelerations. Stop start. All these can use up to 120A per motor.
Hills. Causes motors to increase amps. For a long distance without any extra cooling. So take it easy on hills!
Too many burgers. A user with 7 stone will need 1 quarter of the amps to turn, climb a ramp etc, than a 28 stone uer.

TURN in place? Up to 120A
FLAT OUT? 10A to 20A

The other thing is this. The heat is transfered from the armature (copper windings) to the outside case, by the airflow inside the motor. At stall, or low speeds indoors, theres low RPM so little air movement. When running flat out theres a lot! As the motor is spinningat 4 to 6 thousand RPM. It cools better fast! And of course theres also more airflow over the motors casing too. So run fast and in straight lines! Its indoors and ramps and hills that damage them.
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby expresso » 12 Sep 2018, 21:58

i see - i guess it must be the hills i do when i go out on that far ride - i run into many hills - some not as steep as a few - but run longer -

reason i couldnt use my P222 chair to get to the end of this ride - the hill stopped me - i wasnt going to make it back too short steep for this chair i would have been stuck -

i hope to make one last trip with the new motors if weather permits - its been a short rainy summer - and temps are dropping already -

cant avoid the hills - have to deal with it and short motor life maybe
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Burgerman » 12 Sep 2018, 22:41

Just go up at half speed.

i hope to make one last trip with the new motors if weather permits - its been a short rainy summer - and temps are dropping already -


Hottest summer on record here. and zero rain for 4 months or more. Every day was the same stupidly too hot, up until a week ago. Still not bad, rained twice! And still warm but cloudy.
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby expresso » 12 Sep 2018, 23:39

i can try - hard to go half speed - i feel slow as it is uphills - i will keep that in mind though -

we got nothing this summer - a few too hot heat waves and all rainy - every week i seen rain for 5 days at least

i actually first time ever i got caught in two rain storms with in the same month - i had no choice but to ride it - i was in the open - no where to hide -

i had my JS covered and thats -it - i was soaked and then got cold - i got sick that time and had to take my Z pack Meds to get ride of it -

now just rain and humid indoors - have to have AC on and that gets me sick also - either cold rainy or humid and too hot heat waves - good old summer like i remember them are over -
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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby Burgerman » 13 Sep 2018, 00:14

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Re: Lubricate the powerchair parts

Postby ex-Gooserider » 18 Sep 2018, 03:57

There is no single 'does everything' lubricant - or at least not one that does a decent job...

WD-40 does a poor job on almost everything, and basically got it's reputation out of WWII.... It was invented as a short term coating intended to protect against moisture (WD stands for 'Water Displacing') and sent to combat zones to protect military hardware against rust.... Typically in combat zones, you don't have good access to hardware stores so you try whatever is handy that MIGHT do what you are trying to do - turns out that if applied frequently, WD-40 is a sort of OK lubricant, sort of does a reasonable job as a solvent for cleaning guns, etc... Since smart soldiers (the sort that survive to come home) clean their weapons at least daily, they didn't experience the way WD-40 (by DESIGN) turns into sticky goo after a few days when the carrier solvent evaporates, as they were always flushing it out with new... So they came home and raved about this 'wonderful lubricant' that did such a great job (or at least better than any other choices) at keeping their weapons running.... The rest is marketing...

However the end result is that if WD-40 ever gets used on something where it can't be thoroughly scrubbed off, over time it will turn into a sticky sludge as it attracts dirt and dust... This sludge will gum stuff up, and even cause added problems as the dirt starts acting like an abrasive paste.... Only cure is to keep lubricating to replace those carrier oils....

However if you want to do things RIGHT you will end up with a large collection of different lubes and greases for use on different things.... Since we don't know what was making your noise, we can't really say exactly what to lube it with to fix the problem....

For places where a light oil is appropriate, I like Tri-Flon or other Teflon carrying equivalents. Silicone sprays can also be useful. Look for "Dry" lubricants that aren't sticky after they have dried. Greases are somewhat dependent on what you are doing with them. In particular be careful to make sure they are compatible with whatever materials you are using them on.

If I was making bets, my big suspects for the cause of your noise would be either a bad caster bearing (and lubrication will only help a sketchy bearing for a short time, really they should be replaced with new rubber sealed bearings, preferably stainless steel) OR a wheel hub that has a little tiny bit of slop on it's motor axle....

ex-Gooserider


Fedor wrote:Recently a strange "knocking" sound appeared in my powerchair, somewhere near the motor. It was a rhythmic knocking, which sometimes disappeared. The sound was at any speed, even the smallest. At the same time, it was impossible to determine the source of the sound. I really tried! Maybe a motor, a wheel, a bearing, an axle, I even thought about suppression. After the research, I decided that most likely the sound emits a motor or gearbox. I started thinking about replacing the motor. As a last hope, I took the WD40 and applied it wherever I could (mostly I was concerned about the axles of the wheels). A few minutes later the knock was gone and after 2-3 long trips did not appear. This surprised me very much, because the knocking sounded really like a breakdown. Later, the dealer confirmed that the sound is more like a front wheel bearing, not a motor.

Why did I create this subject? First, in such a situation, try to do the same! Secondly, as far as I know, WD40 perfectly cleans the surface, but is not the best as a lubricant. So I would like to know which lubricant is better to carry out periodic maintenance of the powerchair? After this incident, I think many parts and places really need it.
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