Power Supply for PowerLab8 v2

[jefferso]

I just ordered a Cellpro PowerLab 8 v2 and I'm looking for a good power supply for it.
I've seen Coolice referenced in the forum: http://www.coolice.co.uk/cfs/coolice-psu-s.html
So was considering the "575/1150 watt, 25 volt, 47 amp PSU's = £58* collected / £64* Posted"
Is that a good choice? It's a lot cheaper than an SM3040 Digimess which looks like it would be the gold standard.

I am going to use it to charge a Permobil C500s chair with 2 MK gel batteries using the XLR port on the side of the chair (not under the joystick). I guess that will limit it to 12A. Right now I'm using a Ring Automotive 24v 2-8a Smart Charge Pro at 8A.

I hope to get Anderson connectors fitted eventually, but not sure when I'll be able to make that happen.

I am also considering making some kind of Lithium pack for my ventilator, which is 12v, so the PL8 might eventually charge that too.

[Burgerman]

All correct and good.

[jefferso]

I've just been looking through the "ZXD2400 modification guild 3Kw 0-60V 0-50A" thread. I'm thinking maybe one of those would be a more versatile option. I could use it directly as a 12A charger without the PL8 and switch the settings to use it with the PL8.

[Burgerman]

Yes. But be warned, fan quite noisy if you charge where you sleep.

[jefferso]

The Ring charger starts off loudish but quiets down when the amps go low, but this one stays loud even with low amps?
I might not mind too much since I use a ventilator too (though it's pretty quiet).
I suppose I could try replacing the fan as you've done if it's too noisy.

How much does the ZXD2400 weigh? I've been taking the Ring with me when I travel. I used to take a slightly lighter generic one but not knowing how many amps are going in, I never knew exactly how charged the chair was. It would be nice to have 12A going in while charging in a pub on the moors when I'm worried about getting back to a train station.

[martin007]

ZXD2400 weigh 4 or 5 Kg (approximately).

The noise is the same as the fan of a computer.

The manufacturer's instructions indicate that it is not advisable to transport it with vibration (travel).

[ex-Gooserider]

My opinion is that using a PL-8 on lead is not bad but it tends to be in the 'over-kill' category - sort of like using a chainsaw to make toothpicks...

The ZXD 2400 by itself is probably a better choice for home use, but as noted the manual advises against using it for travel because it has a lot of very heavy and robust parts in it. The concern is that if they start getting shaken around to much there is a risk of damage to the PC boards they are soldered onto... This isn't unreasonable - I have seen this as a failure mode in many of the 'mobility brick' chargers....

Adding the Anderson connectors so that you can bypass the undersized XLR wiring would help for initial charging with any charger, and if I was looking at something to haul around on my chair, I would probably be inclined to simply go with an 8-10A mobility brick in order to keep the size and weight down... (if traveling in a car, do the BM 'charge off the alternator' setup and skip the charger altogether...)

Definitely get a PL-8 for lithium, but I think that there are better ways to spend the money if only doing lead...

ex-Gooserider

[Scooterman]

Hi, sorry to butt in on the thread. The items in the photo were purchased secondhand but all seem fine. Both the PL8 and power supply work although I've not tried charging anything. The power supply has no info except what is scrawled in white by hand. It looks to me like two 12v power supplies gaffer taped together.

At the weekend I followed the PL8 power supply set up procedure (the guy who own it previously hadn't). I said the charger rating was 40A not 47A cos I thought safety margin to avoid . Although was surprised because the increase/decrease buttons on the PL8 allow the current to be set higher than 40A, but on the front cover of the PL8 it says it charges up to 40A wtf?

First thing I'm going try why I'm waiting for my lithium test batteries is wire Andersons to the scooter and powerchair for FAST CHARGING!

But I've been reading BM's main page on fast charging and have remembered that if you fast charge say in the middle of the day you're only bulk charging the batteries to say 90% and still need to give them a good long soak/float charge overnight.

Do WD users ever supply the PL8 via two series 12v lead acids? I believe that for what they call regenerative charging when cycling batteries (a lot of current can be dumped back and forth in the lead acids). But my fuddled brain seems to recall it's non-lithium battery chemistries that benefit from cycling, something like nickel metal hydride? Also I suppose using lead acid as the PL8 power supply could be used for bottom balancing? But we don't do that on WD.com and I now know why now courtesy of BM

[jefferso]

Thanks for all the input.

Veering off my own subject a bit, I've been looking around for a 12A 24V charger that's on the lighter side for travel but also can do Gel properly.

I have a candidate with the Victron Impulse S12. I've written to the company asking if they can tell me the voltage for the Gel setting.

The charger seems interesting. It has dip switches for setting charge profile and a data port for PC monitoring. They say it's 1.55kg, which is slightly lighter than the Ring (~1.8kg). Its more flat profile might be good for packing in a backpack or suitcase.

There's a bit of info on their brochure, but not actual voltage levels
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... -%20EN.pdf

[Burgerman]

Not enough info. But its only 6A?

All you ACTUALLY need to charge gel properly, if thats what you are doing. Is a 28.00 to 28.20V power supply. Charge overnight and that will be fine. Leave on for up to 12 hours. Its not that complicated.

If its 3 stage, then thats the same thing. It charges at full power (6 or 8A??) until it reaches the CV voltage. And there it stays! Up to 8 hours approx, CV.

If it got float, which isnt required for cyclic use, it should transition to this lower 27V level when the CV voltage above has been maintained for 6 to 8 hours, or when current drops to a very low level of fails to drop further, like 0.2A.

The problem, as always, is that non of the damned manufacturers tell you what they actually do!!! So the only way to find out is to keep buying chargers in the vein hope of getting one that does this. So far, its never happened! So I use the PL8, or I set one of my power supplies to 12A and 28.2V and plug it in. Or with Anderson, up to 40A. Or the power supply from Shirley, also does this. So 3 ways. to do it correctly. The rest is all guesswork...

[cavorite]

This one has 11 charge profiles. One is programmable.
https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/sterlingpowerusaprocharge-24volt20ampbatterycharger.aspx

https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/library/Sterling%20Power%20USA%20-%20ProCharge%20Ultra%20Battery%20Charger%20Product%20Sheet.pdf

[jefferso]

All this I've written below may be moot because the UK supplier, Barden Batteries said the model was discontinued and offered a Numax charger in its place.

I'm trying to extract information from a Victron sales person in the Netherlands about actual voltage levels at the Gel setting and even whether it's still available.

Not enough info. But its only 6A?

I wondered about that too since it said 12-24V but the chart in the lower right of the pdf's 2nd page seems to show 24V 12A entries

Code: Select all

Voltage      Battery type              Power
24V          Gel          40 - 60Ah    7A
24V          Gel          60 - 80Ah    9A
24V          Gel          60 - 100 Ah  12A
24V          Wet          50 - 65 Ah   8A
24V          Wet          70 - 85 Ah   12A
24V          Wet          90 - 115 Ah  12A
24V          Wet          120 - 140 Ah 12A
24V          Yellow Top   60 Ah        12A
24V          Special M    60 Ah        12A
24V          Maint free   60 - 120 Ah  12A
12V          Gel          60 - 120 Ah  12A
12V          Wet          50 - 65 Ah   8A
12V          Wet          > 70Ah       12A
12V          Yellow Top   60 Ah        12A

This charger seems intriguing because of the light weight, the 12A (if it really is at 24V) and it has DIP switches to change settings (for Gel etc), limited internal logging and a little serial connection inside which looks like it can live monitor a charge.

https://www.batterilageret.dk/images/Ma ... ger-EN.pdf

[jefferso]

This one has 11 charge profiles. One is programmable.

Looks like that Sterling one is 20A which is too much for my current XLR setup. It shows a weight of 2kg, which isn't bad for 20A, but still heavier than I would hope for something to take traveling.

My Ring charger started acting a little squirrelly a couple of weeks ago, and I've just realised the DC cable at the back must have had lots of strands broken because if it's pulled to either side, the charger resets. I was thinking it would be simple to cut the cable off and reattach it inside but it was more complex inside than I could deal with. I took it to a local shop that had helped me with a 12v/24v converter before, but the more he talked about it, the less he wanted to touch it. He was saying they do electronics and this is really a job for an electrician because it's the wiring. I think once he'd uttered the phrase health and safety he'd convinced himself to refuse to do it. He said he'd only do it if he had a gun to his head, then he changed his mind and said, no, two guns. I asked how much he'd charge to do it then and he said he'd do it for free because he'd be doing it to save his life.

I guess it's one too many times a personal assistant has dragged the charger by the cable when it won't reach. Some people are really hard to cure of this behaviour.

[cavorite]

The Sterling output can be set to 5, 10, 15, or 20 amps. But not a great travel companion.

[martin007]

The Sterling output can be set to 5, 10, 15, or 20 amps. But not a great travel companion.

Why?

[cavorite]

It’s large and unwieldy. Actually meant to be mounted permanently. It’s a great charger but not small.

[jefferso]

The Sterling is not a great travel companion for me because it is a bit heavier and a bit bigger, so it would be a bit more to carry. I try to fit everything into a backpack between my legs, but sometimes someone has to lift or carry it, so smaller and lighter is a great benefit. I travel by public transport (mostly train) so it's not as easy as one more item to add to the car. I guess one plus for the Sterling, as a marine charger, it's probably quite tolerant of vibrations and being bumped around.

The Sterling specs say
260 mm x 215 mm x 90 mm (approximately 10.25 in x 8.5 in x 3.5 in)
2 kg
I don't know if they're rounding that 2kg value though, because they all say either 2 or 3 kg, in fact, some of the sheets have different values, so maybe it's 3kg?

The seemingly discontinued Victron Impulse 12 says it's:
80 mm x 182 mm x 220 mm (approximately 3.2 in x 7 in x 8.6 in)
1.55 kg
I heard back from a retailer in the Netherlands who said the voltage for the Gel setting is "28,8V what is perfect for Gelpacks". So my lightweight travel fantasy gel charger might have to remain a dream for now.

For home for the PL8, Digimess has one ex-demo for £329.00 right now, but that's a lot compared to what it might be on ebay some day, so I'm leaning towards the Coolice power supply.
The Coolice page says they can fit connectors on it. What kind of connector would be good for connecting the power supply to the PL8?
It looks like the PL8 comes with an EC5 female connector. That's the input, right? So I could ask Coolice for an EC5 male.

[Burgerman]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24V-2A-3A-4A ... 1006.m3226

For travel use I would buy the 8 amp one of these. Or similar. And MEASURE exactly what it does. And if its close, then use it. If volts are too high, I would fit two shottky diodes back to back, to lose 0.25v approx if needed. Since its light. If it does everything wrong, ebay it and get a different one. Rinse and repeat. You are wasting your time asking anyone esp the seller or the manufacturer in most cases because they are clueless.

[LROBBINS]

two shottky diodes back to back

Two diodes "back to back", that is, cathode to cathode of anode to anode would block all current. You mean two diodes in series pointd in the same direction.

[Burgerman]

No I mean two, facing in different directions, literally back to back, on one wire. Parallel, but one reversed. So that the charger can see the battery voltage. At least it will see 28.25 ish.


Like this

CHARGER POS ------------=------------ POS CHAIR WITH 2 DIODES REPRESENTED BY THE TWO BARS. One in each direction.
CHARGER NEG -------------------------- NEG CHAIR

Which allows the charger to see the battery. Or it wont charge. This is working fine on my 13.6V van float charger, which is sat at 13.33V since the start of the month. 13.6 is too high for 3 months of storage. I will leave it this way till Feb, when the vans solar roof setup takes over.

[LROBBINS]

Of course you're right - you need to provide for current flow in both directions. I thought you were aiming for 2X voltage drop. Is one diode drop enough to bring 28.8 down to what's needed by a gel battery?

[Burgerman]

No, because I am using a shottky diode on a 12V van here. But a single silicone diode or 2x shottky will. Which I cant spell, would give either .7 or .5V APPROX drop depending on diode / load/curve you choose. All depending on what you need to do. The reverse diode should always be a single low drop one of course.

[jefferso]

The Coolice page says they can fit connectors on it. What kind of connector would be good for connecting the power supply to the PL8?
It looks like the PL8 comes with an EC5 female connector. That's the input, right? So I could ask Coolice for an EC5 male.

Can anyone confirm that EC5 male would be the right connector on the end of a power supply for the PowerLab 8?

[Burgerman]

Yes but far more useful long term to fit a grey anderson to everything.

[jefferso]

Thanks. I might have to keep things as simple as possible to get started.

But if I got ambitious and went for andersen, what would I need? I'd ask for an andersen on the Coolice, then andersen to what kind of connection to the input on the PL8? I don't recall seeing a photo of the back of the PL8 and don't have a good feel for how everything fits together yet.

[jefferso]

Is the EC5 hard wired into the back of the PL8? Then I'd need an anderson to EC5 adapter to plug in an anderson from the Coolice?

[Burgerman]

No. Cut that plastic blue connector off, fit Anderson the same as my 4 Hyperion, and 4 PL8 chargers, solar panels, drills, car, all of my powerchairs, mower, strimmer, bed, gf car, 240v inverter, etc etc. I have Y leads, serial and parallel adapters and extensions. And my 4x power supplies, even my portable drill!

Or you end up with a string of connectors and high resistance etc.

[jefferso]

Maybe I'll ask Coolice for the EC5 for now, with some extra length so I can cut it off later and replace it with an Anderson. I don't have enough strength to do this stuff myself any more, and it's hard to direct an assistant or friend to make good connections (unless they have experience with this kind of thing, which none of my local friends do). I may be at (or past) my limit already creating the banana to XLR cable from the PL8 to the wheelchair.

Then when I have a chance, I'll have a list of improvements to make.

[jefferso]

The cheap 8amp ebay charger with something to modify the voltage seems like a great idea for travel. It looks like it is pretty small and light, and since it's cheap, almost disposable. I wrote to the ebay seller and asked for weight and size of the 24v 8a one and they said it's 1.18 pounds 8.9 x 4.7 x 2.1 inches (0.5 kg, 22.6 x 12 x 5.3cm) so if that's accurate, it would be a winner for portability.

I am still hoping for something 12amp to get charged quicker, so maybe can do something similar with voltage reduction if a cheap light 24v 12a exists.

I wrote to NDS Energy in Italy a few days ago about their 12a charger and got this reply:

The Power Charger Pro is the right way to charge your battery, in your case the right model is the: PFC03600-24CH12S (a 24V 12A).

This model can be set to the GEL charging curve by two internal deep switch (both of them in "ON mode").
This curve provides 28.2V to the battery but after that it also provide an higher voltage phase (31.2V), made just for GEL batteries, made to ballance the cells.
If you are thinking about it...No, this upper voltage doesen't demage the battery.

If you are from UK you can contact Road Pro (https://www.roadpro.co.uk/) and ask them to order this particoular model. If you are from another country ask me then.

I've asked if they have a spec sheet, though sounds like I'll have to take it all with a grain of salt and try to measure myself to make sure if I get one.

But the higher balancing voltage quoted would be bad for gel wouldn't it?

It's 208 mm x 111 mm x 56 mm (8.2 in x 4.4 in x 2.2 in) and 1.6kg, which seemed pretty good for travel, at least until I saw the ebay charger's size and weight. Road Pro said it's approx £185 but I've seen it for €180 on Italian sites. A slightly bigger financial risk than £25.95

[Burgerman]

This model can be set to the GEL charging curve by two internal deep switch (both of them in "ON mode").
This curve provides 28.2V to the battery but after that it also provide an higher voltage phase (31.2V), made just for GEL batteries, made to ballance the cells.
If you are thinking about it...No, this upper voltage doesen't demage the battery.

They mean cell equalization, which DOES NOT APPLY to gel. Its designed to basically make a wet acid battery bubble and gas for a bit so that it mixes up stratified acid/water so its the same strength everywhere. It will cause bubbles that never recover in a gel battery and increase internal resistance and cause gel shrinkage. They are idiots.

Take a look what MK say about charging ABOVE their 13.8 to 14.1V maximum. With optimum being 13.95V.