Permobil Parts Warranty

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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 22 Feb 2019, 20:55

Thanks for the prompt replies!

I am fortunate to have a competent backup chair, so I will not be using the problem wheelchair until the motors are replaced.

Both the NuMotion tech and I were surprised that Permobil only shipped the assembled motor/gearbox combination for each side. We were expecting the brakes to come with them (preassembled, of course). All other times the motors have been replaced, they were replaced with a preassembled motor/gearbox/brake unit.

I can only presume that Permobil only wanted to warranty the motor/gearbox and not the brakes.

They are now shipping the assembled motor/gearbox,brake assembly for each side (under warranty). So, that part is good.

The part that is not so good is that I don't think Permobil is aware they must have shipped an incompatible motor the last time.

The NuMotion tech is already investigating how the motors he installed yesterday may differ the the ones previously installed.

Again, thanks for the help. I never considered that the wrong motors may have caused the symptoms we experienced.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby expresso » 22 Feb 2019, 21:40

If they ordered the same part number - it should have been the same motor etc, - but its possiable permobil has them to a higher motor comp. than before ? no way to know that now - if you had a programmer to check it - you could have seen what your old motors where set at. to have an idea - and then check what the new motors are set at -

my P222se chair came from factory with a high motor comp. setting - i didnt know about this till i found this site and started to learn about it along with the programmer to check it - it was jerky and very lively - but hard to control indoors and slowly smoothy etc, - not till i lowered the motor comp. to about 45 i think now

i believe it was set to 65 from factory - have your tech guy check it when all installed - just to know - if its still jumpy or crazy - lower it a bit and see how that works - till it works fine for you - this is IF that was the issue to begin with and it may have been.
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 22 Feb 2019, 23:36

Thanks for the input.

While I have a dealer level programmer, I plan to let NuMotion/Permobil figure this out for me. I don't want to inadvertently do something that could cause them to blame the situation on me.

While I have an intellectual curiosity to diagnose it myself, I will wait patiently on them.

I will rely on one of my backup wheelchairs while waiting for them to figure it out.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby steves1977uk » 22 Feb 2019, 23:45

And there lies the problem, very few techs have OEM level programmers, so it's unlikely they'll be able to adjust the motor compensation setting czy This is why it's a good idea to have your own OEM programmer and dongle, and I bet it could be sorted in 5 minutes! :geek:

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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby expresso » 23 Feb 2019, 00:03

they wont have a OEM programmer and if they did - they have no clue what to do with it anyway - permobil is very strange when it comes to there stuff - even with an OEM programmer for Rnet - it behaves a bit different than other Rnet systems

i have had some experience on one chair - which i was glad to have saved the original file - since i had to write it back to the chair - because i wasnt able to do what was a simple change on my other Rnet chair - but with the permobil F3 - wasnt so simple -
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Burgerman » 23 Feb 2019, 00:15

I gave up on relying on all these idiots years ago. Theres only one way in life if you actually care about getting on with it.

Do it yourself.

If you have a dealer level programmer I can tell you a way to sort that problem out (and a bunch of others) in about 5 minutes. I gave up on having my life on hold, waiting for the next apointment where they guessed and fumbled about 20 years back. Theres no problem I cant fix faster or better myself. There is also no way I could live with the stock programming that you are suffering even with a dealer programmer. Theres a workaround that lets you use that dealer dongle with the OEM software. And its simple.

Just for giggles, add .zip to the settings file, and post it to me in a PM and let me look.
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 23 Feb 2019, 22:54

Thanks for all the feedback.

BM, I have sent you a PM with the settings file.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 24 Feb 2019, 00:12

BM, I received your response. Thanks for your assistance.

The torque was set to 100 shortly after I received the chair 4 years ago (A technician at NuMotion changed it to 100 in an attempt to have it perform better going over thresholds). If I remember right, it was set to 30 from the factory.

I am going to hold off on applying your changes until I hear back from NuMotion/Permobil next week. I don't expect to hear anything substantial, but just in case...

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
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Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Burgerman » 24 Feb 2019, 00:26

The only other change is lowered motor load compensation. so test. That will be the issue. 95% certain.

Load it, test it without even sitting in it. Then put your original file back on. Takes 15 seconds.
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Rollin Positive » 26 Feb 2019, 00:44

Your comparing apples and oranges...your only concern is what you pay not what is billed.

$1000 for motors is pretty standard.

Bigger question is why are you rolling in an old chair vs upgrading to a newer F5 much more comfortable and better technology.

US end users should get in the habit of upgrading chairs every 5 years.

Compare any tech now vs 5+ years and its a no brainer!
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Burgerman » 26 Feb 2019, 01:31

What tech are you refering to specifically?

I have stripped and examined many chairs. Both personally hands on and looked at them in bits ant my local freindly dealer. I understand what each part is, what it does. I see absolutely nothing new in the last 5 years. Other than the few bits like the frame design, or the plastics or covers. Its 90% marketing. 10% tiny changes in styling or seating.
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 26 Feb 2019, 05:12

RollPostive: I do care about more than just what I am billed. Perhaps I am tilting at windmills, but I want to be as efficient of a user of medical resources as I can while still meeting my needs.

While I seriously doubt $10,000 changes hands when new motors are installed in my wheelchair, I know that my out of pocket amount is computed based on the $10,000 and can be up to $5,000 (and probably $4,500 for the first set of motors installed in an insurance year). The three backup wheelchairs I have cost less than $5,000 in total!

I am glad the current situation is being taken care of under warranty. That means 3 of the 7 sets of motors this wheelchair will have seen will have been warranty replacements. One set came with the chair and I have paid my insurance deductible/out of pocket amounts for 3 of the sets of motors.

You are right that I should be working toward getting an F5. I started that over a year ago when the C500s VS was approaching its third birthday. It took about a year to get approval to start the serious paperwork on getting a replacement. We are now a bit more than 4 months into the serious part of the process. I found out last week that Medicare has approved an FS, but not an F5 VS. We are working that issue now with Medicare and my secondary private insurance provider.

Based on the specs I have seen and the limited time I have spent in an F5, I like the C500s VS better than the F5 VS. The C500 has better ground clearance, weighs over 75 pounds less, has far better thoracic supports (for me, at least), and has the stander wheels connected to the leg rest so it is easy to move them out of the way when making the transition to a ramp. Of course, my C500s VS burns through motors at an appalling rate.

Steve



RollPositive wrote:Your comparing apples and oranges...your only concern is what you pay not what is billed.

$1000 for motors is pretty standard.

Bigger question is why are you rolling in an old chair vs upgrading to a newer F5 much more comfortable and better technology.

US end users should get in the habit of upgrading chairs every 5 years.

Compare any tech now vs 5+ years and its a no brainer!
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 12 Mar 2019, 02:48

For those of you who have followed the saga of my Permobil C500s VS wheelchair repair, here is an update.

As a recap, new motors and gearboxes were installed (but not brakes). After that, the wheelchair started behaving strangely. It shudders on start and stop. More importantly, if the joystick is briefly flicked in any direction, the wheelchair moves in a random direction for 1 to 2 seconds, accelerating as it does so.

Permobil agreed to have the brakes replaced under warranty, but not the motors and gearboxes.

I don't think there is any way the brakes are causing my problem. Others here have suggested that motor compensation is too high.

NuMotion is a 2 hour drive for me and they will not provide service to my house during the winter (it snows a lot here). It is a long hard day followed by recovery days when we have to make a trip to them. So, I want to make sure there is a reasonable likelihood of problems being resolved when I make the trip to NuMotion.

With that in mind, I called Numotion today and asked for some alternatives to just driving down and blindly having new brakes installed. Fortunately, they connected me with a great tech that used to work there, but has now moved to a regional position. This tech has done most of the work on my chair in the past and knows it well. He has also worked extensively with the tech that now has responsibility for my chair and think highly of him (as do I).

He agreed that brakes were unlikely to be causing my problem. He suggested that the ESP module might have failed. The C500 is a front wheel drive chair and keeping it in a straight line on a side slope is facilitated by the ESP module. The ESP module accepts input from the main control module and then figures out what to do. If it has failed, he said that the ESP module could very well be feeding too much motor compensation and prematurely wearing out my motors (I have gone through 6 set so motors in 4 years and 2,600 miles of driving).

He said that most of the time when the ESP module fails, there is no fault code, but the symptom is that if you briefly flick the joystick in any direction the wheelchair will move in a random direction for 1 to 2 seconds, accelerating as it does so. That is exactly the symptom I am experiencing.

The only way to confirm this is to throw parts at it...that is, replace the ESP module and see if that fixes the problem.

In the meantime, we found out that Permobil had only shipped one brake. They are shipping a second brake and we will then schedule a trip to NuMotion to have the brakes installed. This is necessary to prove to them that brakes are not the issue (though, I suspect just about everyone on this board already knows that:)).

It will take a month or more to work through in insurance paperwork and get a new ESP module if they can conclude that the chair needs one.

Good thing I have backup wheelchairs!

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
Magic Mobility X4 with 176 Ah LiFePO4
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Burgerman » 12 Mar 2019, 03:08

Its far far easier, cheaper and faster to figure out the problem.

Plug in programmer. Disable the stability module and unplug it.
Test. If it drives like a normal wheelchair then thats the issue which I doubt.

Motor load compensation can be tested easily. See what permobil say it SHOULD be and then look at it.
And just in case they are wrong which wouldnt surprise me, drop it to a much lower level and test. Like half. Set to 100mOhms? Choose 50 and test it.

Its nothing to do with brakes! A brake cant make a chair move in the opposite direction you choose.
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 12 Mar 2019, 21:17

I agree!

I only have a dealer level programmer. With that, I am unable to disable the ESP module. I would love to have an OEM programmer, but have not been able to find one.

I do have two C500 wheelchairs. I could swap the ESP module from the working C500 into the non-working C500. The working C500 has low speed motors and is not the standing variety. The non-working C500 is a C500s vS with high speed motors and obviously has the standing feature. Do you know if the ESP module is interchangeable between the two? Would any programming beyond what can be done with a dealer level programmer be necessary?

That would at least allow me to confirm whether or not the ESP module has failed.

With the dealer level programmer, I am unable to see or modify the motor compensation. You have sent me a file with motor compensation lowered to a more reasonable value and I plan to experiment with that, but want to do so after Permobil has finished their warranty work. I don't want to inadvertently interfere with what they are doing and void the warranty on the very expensive (in the US) motors.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Burgerman » 12 Mar 2019, 21:28

They cant know. You just load the old one back after you test it.

There may be a problem in that it will not allow you to load it anyway. Rover told me that permobil have this locked down too. So you may just get an error saying cannot load.
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 14 Apr 2019, 06:59

Here is a bit of an interesting update.

I am in the process of getting a new Permobil F5 wheelchair to replace the Permobil C500s VS that has been out of action for awhile now. Insurance has approved the new wheelchair, but we are still working with insurance to get them to approve some additional items to go along with it (mounting brackets, arm supports, etc.).

In the meantime, NuMotion called and said that they will not be submitting any more claims to insurance for the C500s VS, because doing so could confuse things with the approval for the new wheelchair.

So, I am now on my own with the C500s VS.

The first thing I did was call Permobil and find out the part number for the ESP module. A new one will cost a bit over $900. I found a used one on ebay for $35 shipped.

Permobil also was able to tell me the torque setting for the C500s VS as it was originally delivered to me. It was set to 55% when delivered. Shortly after delivery, NuMotion increased it to 100% because the wheelchair would not go over even a small threshold (1/4 inch).

Last week, I reduced the torque setting to 55% and did not notice any improvement in the symptoms I have been having. Disappointed, I went ahead and ordered the $35 ESP from ebay module that everyone at NuMotion and Permobil seem to think has failed.

I set the torque back to 100% so that we would only be dealing with one variable at a time.

Today, my friend came over and swapped out the ESP module. That definitely made an improvement, but did not completely resolve the symptoms.

I went ahead and set the torque setting to 55% and that in combination with the new (used) ESP module seems to have made a dramatic difference. I want to use it for a few days to declare it fixed, but it seems like it might be.

With the current setup, it easily drives over thresholds without any hesitation at all. It does not shudder when starting and stopping. Most importantly, it no longer drives erratically. It is very controllable.

In fact, I think this might be the best the wheelchair has driven since I took delivery over 4 years ago.

I will keep you informed as I learn more.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
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Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Burgerman » 14 Apr 2019, 13:40

Are you aware what 'torque' ACTUALLY does?

So that you know.
It increases motor load compensation ONLY around the first few degrees of joystick movement, so only at very low speeds. This means that it does the same thing as increasing the main motor load compensation, but only at very low speeds. When you just start, just begin to turn, or just stop. It makes this feel sudden and harsh if set too high. in that it makes the thing jerky around the neutral point only. It AIDS in getting over a treshhold, or startinga turn in place. But makes the chair feel jumpy.

To complicae things, it doesent only do this when YOU move the joystick, but when the Gyro inside your stability module tries secretely to help... So the gyro response may or may not be exadurated depending how far from 0 (zero) the gyro + your input is. So you have a mix of things that makes it hard to feel whats going on wen you set that to 55%.
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby expresso » 14 Apr 2019, 15:25

thats great news that you fixed your chair with only $35 and a few settings back to normal - what ever combination of things that were adjusted - as long as its working now and even better than you expected - :thumbup:
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 14 Apr 2019, 17:17

Burgerman wrote:Are you aware what 'torque' ACTUALLY does?


No! Thanks for the explanation. I have researched this over the last several weeks and have found no definitive explanation of what Permobil's torque setting does, especially in combination with the ESP module.

I had inferred from that research that the torque setting altered motor compensation in high demand situations, such as turning from a stopped position and slowly going over a threshold.

It is still a bit of a mystery to me how the combination of the ESP module and the torque setting affect the final output to the motors.

The challenges I have faced in trying to get the wheelchair back in operation are:
1. Lack of knowledge about how the torque setting and ESP module interact
2. Misdirection by the technical folks at NuMotion and Permobil (ah, it must be the brakes!).
3. Lack of an ability to set other than dealer level parameters on a Permobil wheelchair
4. Potential interactions of having bad motors when the wheelchair was new and me not knowing how a wheelchair should behave.

A potentially significant contributing factor was the failure of the initial set of motors that came with the wheelchair. Not knowing those motors were failing, I complained that the wheelchair did not have enough power to go over a threshold. The manager of the tech department at my semi-local NuMotion said that could be fixed by adjusting the torque. We made the four hour round trip to have the torque adjusted, which seemed to improve that.

But, this was my first wheelchair. I did not know what a wheelchair was supposed to feel like. So, I could not tell if things were amiss.

Shortly after the torque setting was adjusted up to 100% (about 4 years ago, now), the initial set of motors failed catastrophically. They were replaced under warranty, but the torque setting was not returned to the as-delivered state of 55%.

I spent the next four years burning out motors on a regular basis. I kept insisting that there must be something wrong and was met with a response that I was not a typical wheelchair user (too many miles and in the mountains).

I am hopeful that having good motors, lowering the torque to 55%, and having a seemingly good ESP module will not only change how the chair behaves, but will allow the motors to last substantially longer.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
Magic Mobility X4 with 176 Ah LiFePO4
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby swalker » 13 Aug 2019, 06:38

It has been a loooong time since I started this thread, but I thought I would provide an update.

It appears that the saga is finally over. The short version is:
1. Permobil replaced motors on my C500s VS late in 2018
2. The motors failed after less than 50 miles of use
3. Permobil provided a warranty replacement for the motors in January 2019
4. Upon installation, there was an obvious problem with the motors. This was detected by the tech at Numotion who installed the motors. The wheelchair has sat unused since then, except for troubleshooting and testing ( have some backup wheelchairs).
5. We tried new ESP module, various dealer and OEM programming changes, joystick, and ICS master module
6. Along the way, it became apparent that the motors had a different product number than was originally installed in the chair. Permobil confirmed they were compatible and could not be the source of the problem.
7. The local permobil rep, ignoring the "the motors can't be the problem" mantra, was able to get the right motors and installed them last Friday. Suddenly, the chair started working the way it was supposed to!

After several miles of riding, I am very happy to report that the wheelchair seems to be working just fine.

It has been 14 months since I reported the initial motor failure that started this saga. The wheelchair has been unuseable for just about that entire time. It has spent most of the last 3 years in the shop.

Based on this, I was approved through Medicare for a replacement wheelchair. They approved a Permobil F5 VS (stander) wheelchair with many doodads. While medicare concluded I needed a standing wheelchair, thus was qualified for an F5, they would not pay for the standing feature! I would have had to pay for that out of pocket. But, if I did not get the standing feature, medicare would downgrade my approval to a F3.

My out of pocket expense for a new F5 VS, after Medicare paid their portion, was estimated to be close to $20,000. I finally decided that I was not willing to pay that amount and started looking for a lightly used F5 (non VS). I found one with 120 miles on it and purchased it for $3,500. After buying all the bits and pieces to make it fit me, I had spent a total of $6,000. We put it together and I went for my first real ride last Thursday.

By that day, I had pretty much given up on the C500s VS ever being a reliable wheelchair. I was glad to have the F5 and was really liking it. The next day, the new motors were installed in C500s VS and it was surprisingly finally fixed.

Now I have a 7.5 mph F5, a 6.5 mph C500s VS, along with assorted other wheelchairs to keep me going.

I don't know what I would have done without all the helpful information and support from the members of this board. Thanks to everyone for your advice and sympathy!

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: Permobil Parts Warranty

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2019, 09:10

And now next advice. Avoid permobil completely in the future. Because theit tech guys seem clueless, and because non of your chairs can be programmed properly as permobil make it impossible. That alone, along with permobil using their own stability/gyro and seating electronics would stop me ever getting one.

Even the new F5 ones are using the same cheap linix 2 pole motors as many other base level chairs.
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