Permobil Parts Warranty

[swalker]

Motors and brakes were recently replaced on both sides in my C500s VS. The short story is that Permobil claims they are already out of warranty.

Here is the longer story.

I am now on the 5th set of motors and brakes on that wheelchair, averaging less than 600 miles per set of motors. The pair of motors and brakes cost a bit more than $10,000 installed (crazy US prices!). Insurance pays the bulk of that, but I still have to pay about $1,000 each time they are replaced.

Permobil claims to offer a 90 day warranty on parts (in the US), which seems ridiculously short. The last set of motors I had replaced started failing at day 105, which was 15 days after the 90 day warranty expired.

Once those were replaced, I was hypervigilant in looking for issues with the new motors. Sure enough, the brakes no longer hold and the motors make a clicking noise (like a bearing click). These are the same symptoms that have preceded the demise of at least 4 sets of motors. I contacted NuMotion (the folks who did the work) within 60 days of when I picked up the repaired wheelchair to report the issues. I assumed the replacements would be covered under Permobil's parts warranty.

Apparently, I was a bit optimistic. NuMotion has informed me that Permobil claims the warranty period starts when the motors are shipped to NuMotion (or, perhaps as late as when NuMotion received the motors). It took over a month to get them installed and for the wheelchair to be available for me to pick up. Thus, by their math, the motors are out of warranty, even though I reported the problem within 60 days of picking up my partially-repaired wheelchair.

I am working with NuMotion and Permobil to resolve this amicably. I am not at all confident that will be possible.

Has anyone run into this kind of issue before? Any sage advice on things I can do to increase my likelihood of prevailing?

Thanks for your input

Steve

[expresso]

check your PM - see if that helps

i think thats insane - the whole ordeal - i would be on the evening news - if that happened to me - if your chair is old enough - would insurance purchase a new one instead ?

[Burgerman]

The pair of motors and brakes cost a bit more than $10,000 installed (crazy US prices!). Insurance pays the bulk of that, but I still have to pay about $1,000 each time they are replaced.

That amount you pay is approx the correct retail price in normal countries. The rest is just some paper imaginary stuff.

Heres some old prices I just stumbled across. Admittedly 8 years old!
4 POLE 6MPH inc brake etc.

Brushes for 4 pole motors quickie chair in UK. Add 20% for dollars.
are 182132.30001 for one motor £17.51

10 kph 4 pole 182001.30002 RH £274.78
10 kph 4 pole 182001.30003 LH £274.78

Tell me, what make are these motors?

[woodygb]

SPARE AND REPLACEMENT PARTS WARRANTY
Permobil warrants any spare parts sold by Permobil for use in any of abovelisted Permobil wheelchairs, and any replacement parts used in a repair
performed by an authorized Permobil dealer, to be free from defects for
a period of 90-days under proper use, maintenance and care according to
the owner’s manual, warnings and instructions accompanying the product.
The warranty covering spare or replacement parts shall begin on the date
the spare or replacement part is first shipped to the customer, or the date
the part is incorporated into the product by an authorized Permobil dealer,
whichever comes first.

There is only one way to describe the pricing and practices of the Mobility suppliers in the U.S.A. ... CRIMINAL!

[Burgerman]

So this means you are covered.



600 miles per set?
1.6 miles per day for a year?
Did you say you lived in an area with hills? Hills kill motors fast. But that said they sell them to people that live on hills!

There is only one way to describe the pricing and practices of the Mobility suppliers in the U.S.A. ... CRIMINAL!

I think thats actually illegal in the UK/EU.

Theres an EU law or two that say 2 year minimum on all electrical goods. Or parts sold as retail. And my Quickie chair from sunrise has a 2 year warranty, and if I buy parts for it trade (commercial warranty) then that is legally 12 months minimum.

Then theres the manufacturers added warranties, like the 5 year warranty on my OLED TVs for eg. They have to stick to that if they sold you the TV and it was offered at the time.
Current quickie chairs https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... heelchairs
Current You-Q chairs https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... heelchairs
Childrens quickie chairs, same thing with small seats... Ridiculously. https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... heelchairs

[sacharlie]

There is a ripoff carried out by the big chain pharmacy stores and private insurance here in the USA.
Your policy has a $20 copay on prescriptions so you always pay $20, but on many of these drugs someone without insurance can get the drugs for $4.
The contract between the pharmacy and insurance company states that the pharmacist cannot inform the patient about the true $4 price.

NuMotion and your insurance could be doing the same. NuMotion pockets the whole ripoff or maybe splits it with the insurance company. Who knows!

[expresso]

it is a crime - its not even funny - i get it when insurance is involed - they triple charge - but if i had to pay out of pocket and they still want to charge $ 4000 for two motors is insane -

if they sell a new motor - it should be warranty as a new motor would be - i say at least a year - - but it seems i think that even brand new chairs - they give you 90 days on motors also - i could be wrong and it could be some brands over others - i dont agree - i dont care what the invoice says - even if we all know they get maybe half of the invoice -

thats even too much if you ask me

if i had to pay out of pocket for a Chair myself - i rather spend it and get one of Tom Kilmore chair - offeres the best of the best and all the features i would need - thats an example - if someone has no insurance -

maybe many dont like the bounder - but i have to say - 5 years on motors !!!! - i am not even worried about it - they do offer the best warranty in the industry - now there insurance covered chair - offers less but still beats the other brands in terms of coverage -

but come one = any brand charging so much should offer at least a year for that cost - if you want to give me 90 days - then charge me $300 each motor - thats may be even more than its really worth - the whole system is fucked - but the user is the only one who gets fucked - they do the fucking

[Burgerman]

The us system is highly messed up. But surely the point here is that they ARE still under warranty no matter how short or limited. Since it covers the time that they were delivered to the customer, or fitted. Not to the dealer. So he is being told a lie by the dealer?

SPARE AND REPLACEMENT PARTS WARRANTY
Permobil warrants any spare parts sold by Permobil for use in any of above listed Permobil wheelchairs, and any replacement parts used in a repair
performed by an authorized Permobil dealer, to be free from defects for
a period of 90-days under proper use, maintenance and care according to
the owner’s manual, warnings and instructions accompanying the product.

The warranty covering spare or replacement parts shall begin on the date
the spare or replacement part is first shipped to the customer, or the date
the part is incorporated into the product by an authorized Permobil dealer,
whichever comes first.

[expresso]

they might as well add a jar of lube with your new chair when you pick it up - will come in handy when they fuck you

that would cost an extra $100

[swalker]

Expresso, I got your PM. Thanks. Now, I just need to get the jar of lube.

I am well aware of the dysfunction of the US health and insurance industry. It is my experience that most medical things are billed to insurance at highly inflated rates. I get to pay my deductible and copay. Insurance then pays their "negotiated" rate, which is often essentially zero. Until I have met my out-of-pocket maximum, I am essentially paying for the full cost of most of medical care.

I learned years ago that my drugs are cheaper if I tell the pharmacy to bill me rather than insurance. That magically lowers the price. More importantly, I can get a 3-month supply of drugs this way. Insurance limits me to a 1-month supply, which would cause me to make otherwise unnecessary trips to the pharmacy.

BM, I agree that the warranty should start when I received the repaired chair. Permobil disagrees, at least in the US.

I do live in the mountains. In the summer, I sometimes do over 2,000 feet vertical in a day, though on most days don't do much over 1,000 feet vertical. I know that puts a strain on the motors. But the currently-failing set of motors have been used for a bit less than 100 miles on essentially flat terrain. I probably have not climbed 1000 feet vertical total on that set of motors in those 100 miles. They are clearly defective.

I will battle with Permobil to get them to honor the warranty and will work with NuMotion to make this happen. NuMotion has been great. My only complaint with them is that they can be a bit slow.

Interestingly, I am in the process of getting a new wheelchair through NuMotion. We have deemed my current C500s VS to be unreliable enough to no longer be suitable for everyday use. I had picked out a Permobil F5 VS with all the bells and whistles. Permobil will probably charge close to $100,000 for that chair. If Permobil does not honor the warranty on the motors, I will start the process over getting a chair from a different manufacturer. That is not what I want to do, but I will do it if necessary.

I will keep you up to date as the battle unfolds. I just wish it was a battle I did not have to fight.

Steve

[expresso]

i dont want to change your mind on what chair you should get etc. - everyone is different - But with all the trouble you having with Permobil - maybe you should at least demo other chairs - before you choose the same brand ?

being outdoors - have you considered magic mobility chairs like the V6 or V4 RWD - or one of there Mid wheel - they seem to be built better overall -

keep that info i sent you on PM - use it if you need too . as a last resort or if your not happy how you are being treated etc, -

[sacharlie]

What justifies a $100k price?

[expresso]

What justifies a $100k price?

nothing does - its all bullshit - everyone knows it - its not even worth 10K - BUT they are allowed to do it and then get paid a MUCH less amount - which is still double than what it should be

they think they impress us by showing us that we are getting a 100K chair for free - so we should be happy and not complain - makes me complain more if its really worth and costs 100K - it shouldnt break down at all for a decade and should be warranted for a decade period -

[swalker]

Expresso, I have a Magic Mobility chair for my more adventurous pursuits. It is an older X4, which is 4 wheel drive. I am building a lithium battery pack for it so that it has a greater range.

Sacharlie, nothing justifies the $100,000 price. In my opinion, it is an artificial price. Certainly, Permobil will not receive $100,000. But, in the US, that is the price that the Durable Medical Equipment (DME) providers bill to insurance. Insurance will eventually pay a negotiated price that is a small fraction of the $100,000. I will be billed for deductible and copays based on the $100,000 price, though.

I think it is a case of I don't make the rules, I just have to play by them.

I think a fairer evaluation of the wheelchair market in the US is the used market. I know someone selling an F5 VS configured just about the same as the one I am trying to get. They are asking $15,000. $15,000 is more than my expected out of pocket costs for a new F5 VS quoted at $100,000 to the insurance company.

I have 3 Permobil wheelchairs (C500s VS, C500 Corpus 3G, and C350 Corpus 3G). I like them all and have only had motor trouble on the C500s VS. Of course, I use that one the most, by far. My Magic Mobility X4 gets the hardest use, but because it is so large and has such a limited range, it is not practical as an everyday chair.

What I have learned is that having a capable backup wheelchair or 3 is absolutely essential! The first time my wheelchair went to the shop for extended repairs it was in the shop for 3 weeks and I did not have a backup wheelchair. After that experience, I started buying used wheelchairs and built a very nice fleet of backups.

Steve

[shirley_hkg]

A stander has the heaviest seat. Not sure if it has a 4mph model .

[Burgerman]

What shirley means is that a HD 4 POLE motor, and say 4MPH is going to take 1/3rd less power in watts or Amps at any given speed, and 30% less heat, and have 50% extra range and likely not fail on those hills. So when fixed, or motors replaced, this may be a better option for you. Same when choosing any new chair.

[swalker]

BM and shirley_hkg, thanks for your insights on the weight of the chair affecting the longevity of the high speed motors. I was aware of the potential for that, but perhaps don't fully appreciate just how much it limits the life of the high speed motors.

I was able to download a PDF of Permobil's warranty from their US website. I was surprised to find that my chair was covered by a 2 year warranty from new (it is now about 4 years old). Parts are only covered for 90 days. The warranty contains a clause stating the warranty commences the earlier of when "the product is first delivered to the customer, or forty (40) days from the date the product is shipped to the dealer by permobil".

The boxes the motors were shipped in have a date of 8/20/2018. I picked up the chair with the new motors on 10/I9/2018. I reported the problem in late November or early December. NuMotion inspected the chair on 12/12/2018. All of these dates are well documented.

So, the absolute worst case is that the warranty period started 40 days after 8/20/2018 ( when Permobil shipped the motors), meaning it started on 9/29/2018. 90 days from 9/29/2018 would be 12/28/2018. Fortunately, I reported the problem much before then and NuMotion inspected the chair on 12/12/2018. It seems to me I should be covered by their warranty.

I will continue to work with NuMotion and Permobil to resolve this.

Steve

[foghornleghorn]

I'd never survive the winter and probably suffocate with the altitude but Vail looks amazing.

90 days is a terrible warranty compared to what we are used to in the EU. I didn't realise US was so mean with cover. Compared to the expense it's insultingly short. I hope they fix it for you.

[woodygb]

Steve ..I believe that you are misconstruing what this warranty statement applies to.

https://permobil.ca/wp-content/uploads/ ... _TwoYr.pdf

COMMENCEMENT OF WARRANTY PERIOD
The Warranty shall begin on the date the product is first delivered to the
customer, or forty (40) days from the date the product is shipped to the
dealer by Permobil, whichever comes first.

... This I believe applies to a BRAND NEW CHAIR.

[swalker]

Woodygb, thanks for the heads up.

I once again reviewed the document I downloaded from the US website at https://permobilus.com/support/warranties/. That is the version that appears to apply to my C500 VS wheelchair.

The first paragraph of that warranty describes the warranty for the entire wheelchair.

The first titled clause discusses when the warranty commences ("COMMENCEMENT OF WARRANTY PERIOD").

The third titled clause ("SPARE AND REPLACEMENT PARTS WARRANTY") sets out the terms for replacement parts (which my motors are).

It seems like to me the first titled clause discussing warranty commencement should apply to the entire warranty document, including the part about replacement parts. I could be wrong, though, as I am certainly far from being a lawyer.

Steve

[popschief]

Famous American gangster Al Capone held his business meetings
in the Ritz and Carlton hotels. The insurance companys and
wheelchair manufactures hold theirs on golf courses. Harder
to bug.

bp

[woodygb]

Woodygb, thanks for the heads up.

I once again reviewed the document I downloaded from the US website at https://permobilus.com/support/warranties/. That is the version that appears to apply to my C500 VS wheelchair.

The first paragraph of that warranty describes the warranty for the entire wheelchair.

The first titled clause discusses when the warranty commences ("COMMENCEMENT OF WARRANTY PERIOD").

The third titled clause ("SPARE AND REPLACEMENT PARTS WARRANTY") sets out the terms for replacement parts (which my motors are).

It seems like to me the first titled clause discussing warranty commencement should apply to the entire warranty document, including the part about replacement parts. I could be wrong, though, as I am certainly far from being a lawyer.

Steve

https://permobilus.com/wp-content/uploa ... y-1117.pdf

My take on it is this..

That the initial COMMENCEMENT OF WARRANTY PERIOD is indeed for your brand new chair.

ANY parts that fail due to "normal" wear and tear or defective manufacture would be replaced free of charge during this 2 year time period...and any replaced parts should... I.M.O.... continue to be covered until the 2 year warranty expires.

Should repairs happen AFTER the initial 2 year Warranty then the SPARE AND REPLACEMENT PARTS WARRANTY ...with the weasel words on what constitutes " 90 DAYS "...kicks in.

[ex-Gooserider]

It would probably be worth finding out what a lawyer would charge to send communications on his letterhead - often this can be a big incentive to resolve issues..... I'd also start calling people like your state's consumer protection agencies and disability commissions - after finding the right contacts, send messages to them in writing with CC to the folks at Permobil and NuMotion....

Be sort of positive - 'I am having problems with getting this resolved, can you be of assistance?' along with 'What is the process for initiating a complaint if a suitable resolution can't be reached?'

While warranties can be used to deny paying for things, any company has the ability to 'make adjustments / exceptions' and cover things that might not be otherwise... The trick is to apply enough 'thermal illumination' (being a pain, ) to make them see the light - or at least think that it will cost them less to make you happy than it would to screw you over....

ex-Gooserider

[swalker]

Ex-gooserider, thanks for the thoughts. They are the same thoughts I have had. I would not hesitate to get my lawyer involved, if that is necessary.

It appears that it will not be necessary to get lawyers involved. I spoke with NuMotion yesterday and they said they should be able to get it resolved with Permobil.

I think it helped that I keep good records, so can show the dates when various things happened.

Steve

[ex-Gooserider]

Glad to hear it, hope all works out well for you,,,

ex-Gooserider

[swalker]

Great news: Permobil has agreed the motors and gearboxes are under warranty. A new set was ordered and arrived yesterday.

I was able to spend 4 hours at the wheelchair shop (NuMotion) getting the new motors and gearboxes installed while the existing brakes were swapped over.

Unfortunately, this caused some very strange behavior. The wheelchair shudders when starting from and stopped and when coming to a stop. Even worse, a light quick tap of the joystick in one direction typically causes the wheelchair to move in a random direction, which is different from the intended direction.

The wheelchair now takes a couple of seconds to stop energizing the motors after the joystick is released. It can actually accelerate during this time period.

These issues make the wheelchair close to undriveable. These problems did not exist when I brought the wheelchair in at 1:00 PM. The started after the motor swap.

As a side note, the technician is one I have worked with many times over the last 4 years. I believe he knows his stuff and he is very caring. He spent quite a bit of time with NuMotion trying to diagnose what could be causing the issue. It is possible he did something wrong, but if so, it would be his first mistake working with me.

Obviously, they are working on the problem and have ordered up a new set of motors (this will be my 7th set of motors in less than 2,600 miles of use).

This is on a Permobil C500s VS (the lower case s means it has the "high speed motors -- a whole 6.5 miles per hour).

In the meantime, can anyone thing of:
1. An circumstance where changing out the motors and gearboxes (and keeping the existing brakes, which have about 100 miles on them) could cause such behavior?
2. Anything that could have been done inadvertently while swapping the motors that could cause this behavior

As always, thanks for your help.

Steve

[expresso]

i am surprised they used the same brakes - even though they were new - usually they just like to unbolt the motor and bolt on new one - done - i had a few motors changed over the years on two of my chairs - both quickie chairs - all worked out fine - but the whole unit was replaced -

wonder if it needed to be reprogrammed ? dont see why they would be if both old and new motors are the same - unless newer motors are not the same ?

[woodygb]

From your description it seems like the motor compensation setting is DANGEROUSLY WRONG.

I would NOT drive the chair until this is resolved.

NOTE:- Your description matches EXACTLY what happens when I play around with my test chairs and set the Motor Compensation to high.

[Burgerman]

Another story that shows numotion are idiots. And I totally agree. They have likely fitted different lower impedance motors or swapped from 2 to 4 pole at somepoint. And not corrected the motor compensation. Result, dangerous chair, that COULD run away and be unstoppable. And it will eat motors faster than I eat burgers.

Why is it that this industry seems to be so totally incapable of even the basics?

Had timm complaining about numotion ordering group 34 batteries in place of grp 24 because they were bigger, and are still arguing that they are... They are only 60Ah. Instead of 73.6Ah. But they just dont get it.

But they tech and service manager got 34s vs. 24s and now argue the the 34 is a bigger battery and 24 is smaller and will get less rolling per charge.

Thoughts?

I am always amazed by the ignorance.

[steves1977uk]

i am surprised they used the same brakes - even though they were new - usually they just like to unbolt the motor and bolt on new one - done - i had a few motors changed over the years on two of my chairs - both quickie chairs - all worked out fine - but the whole unit was replaced -

wonder if it needed to be reprogrammed ? dont see why they would be if both old and new motors are the same - unless newer motors are not the same ?

Usually a motor is one unit, gearbox/motor and brake. Never seen a tech swap used brakes onto new motors here. Or putting new motors onto used gearboxes as the whole unit is replaced like you said expresso.

Steve