Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby swalker » 06 Apr 2019, 21:20

Conveniently, Revolectrix has a 15% discount on all orders over $100 through the end of this weekend. This is part of their March Madness sale.

I have a bit more than 24 hours to commit to buying a backup charger and power supply.

I am rationalizing it by thinking how nice it would be to have a backup and how nice it will be to have two chargers once I convert another wheelchair to LiFePO4.

Steve
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Apr 2019, 22:23

swalker wrote:Conveniently, Revolectrix has a 15% discount on all orders over $100 through the end of this weekend. This is part of their March Madness sale.

I have a bit more than 24 hours to commit to buying a backup charger and power supply.

I am rationalizing it by thinking how nice it would be to have a backup and how nice it will be to have two chargers once I convert another wheelchair to LiFePO4.

Steve


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Once you experienced the freedom lithium offers, its hard to go back.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby expresso » 06 Apr 2019, 22:34

i would pick up another charger at least - and maybe a different PSU if thats too much - ebay - i use them and always have - so far worked fine for me - $150 at most - i also have a site for them if you need or want to check them out

http://feathermerchantrc.com/


one i have is a bit noisy - theres the 100A version which is quiet i believe - smaller unit - - gives one year warranty - same as others nothing to loose - if you dont mind the size - and used -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Burgerman » 06 Apr 2019, 23:04

Buy one of shirleys...
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby expresso » 06 Apr 2019, 23:13

Burgerman wrote:Buy one of shirleys...



that would work - so far 75ah discharged - 3.211v looks promising
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Apr 2019, 23:19

Burgerman wrote:Buy one of shirleys...


My sentiments too. A superior lead brick charger AND a good PSU for the PL8, whatever you need.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Burgerman » 07 Apr 2019, 19:56

Shirley - as power supply.
0 to 50A
0 to 60V
3000 Watts! Small and cheap and well built electrically for heavy duty long term rack mounted telecom company usage.

And programable as 3 stage charger, 12 or 24V (you set EXACT voltage), and from .1 to 50A you choose. Termination you set yourself. Float voltage YOU choose...

So for lead, or lithium with a BMS you can select all parameters that matter is a 2 or 3 stage charger.

Set it to say 24 or 28V and 50A and it will power your PL8 or any future charger, at max power. Set as charger and you can use it with anderson connector to wack 40A back into your lead battery for half an hour as a top 90% up during the day.

Set it as 3 stage and get a proper controlled overnight charge.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby swalker » 08 Apr 2019, 20:01

I bit the bullet and just put in my order for another PL8 and power supply.

Years ago, when I had one wheelchair and one charger, the charger failed. I was stranded until another charger could be obtained. I vowed "never again".

So, I decided it is worth the cost to have a completely redundant setup.

I decided on the Revolectrix power supply for the same reasons I selected it the first time. I need something that will travel well and is supported by a US vendor.

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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby swalker » 08 Apr 2019, 21:49

Here the updated spreadsheet of the tools and parts I used for the LiFePO4 build for the X4 wheelchair.
Attachments
LiFePO4 Build Parts list.xls
Special Tools and Parts used for LiFePO4 Build
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby terry2 » 09 Apr 2019, 08:01

Glad it's all starting to come together for you :)
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby shirley_hkg » 09 Apr 2019, 12:04



Should get spare D-sub connectors. Do yourself another male 13W3 for the cell monitor. That will reduce messy lead wires inside battery compartment.


Also, Anderson SB50 + Dsub (DR9) for charging is not a bad choice.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby ex-Gooserider » 10 Apr 2019, 07:38

Sounds like this wasn't Swalkers issue, but I remember other threads where there was discussion about setting the PL8 supply voltage... In that thread someone was getting errors as the battery was approaching full charge...

It appeared that the problem is that if the PL8 supply voltage is to close to the output voltage, it starts switching between buck and boost modes, which can cause errors... In that thread it was suggested that if there is an adjustment on the supply, (including ones that are nominally 'fixed voltage' but have an adjusting pot,) to set it so that the supply voltage is either well below or well above the pack voltage so that there is never a need for the PL8 to switch modes...

ex-Gooserider

Scooterman wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Volts x Amps = watts Output.
Because Volts x Amps + 10% Approx losses = Watts input.

Remember though that the charger is both a buck and boost inverter. If you begin charging as a buck (voltage lowering) converter, and as you start to charge the battery voltage rises, it then has to stop being a buck, and switch over to boost. As it does, the battery voltage drops... So now it has to swap back. Rinse and repeat and maybe error...

ooh i never knew any of that :worship

its currently set at 24v. Should i leave as is or up it a bit?
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Scooterman » 10 Apr 2019, 08:24

ex-Gooserider wrote:It appeared that the problem is that if the PL8 supply voltage is to close to the output voltage, it starts switching between buck and boost modes, which can cause errors... In that thread it was suggested that if there is an adjustment on the supply, (including ones that are nominally 'fixed voltage' but have an adjusting pot,) to set it so that the supply voltage is either well below or well above the pack voltage so that there is never a need for the PL8 to switch modes...



So for 8S life,

pack voltage range is roughly 3.0v x 8 = 24v to 3.6v x 8 =28.8v

so is the consensus that the PSU voltage should be set below 24v or above 28.8v?

Mines set to 24v. But I don't think that should be a problem as even if the cells have been discharged to say 2.9v or 3.0v in use, as the pack voltage soon comes back up above 24v when connected to charger. And pack voltage remains higher than PL8 input throughout whole charge.

At least I think that's right?
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Burgerman » 10 Apr 2019, 11:12

Mines set to 24. Roughly...

I just spin the knob toll it reads enough for what I am doing. I have many batteries - hobby, tools, chairs, van, etc.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby terry2 » 10 Apr 2019, 13:10

My power supply is set at 30.
And so far fine :)
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Scooterman » 10 Apr 2019, 14:50

Burgerman wrote:Mines set to 24. Roughly...

I just spin the knob toll it reads enough for what I am doing. I have many batteries - hobby, tools, chairs, van, etc.

I understand :thumbup:
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby swalker » 14 Apr 2019, 17:22

The new backup PL8 arrived yesterday. I had put 16.45 miles on the wheelchair and the subsequent charge showed Capacity In of 110,418 mAh.

That means I probably used a bit over 110 Ah in those 16.45 miles. Projecting forward, if I am able to use 150 Ah out of the battery pack, I am hopeful I will have a range of a bit over 22 miles. That would be wonderful.

If I pushed things a bit, I could see a range of over 25 miles. Those are conservative numbers. I want to be conservative in my estimates, because if I run out of juice on a ride, I will likely be in a place that a vehicle cannot access.

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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Scooterman » 14 Apr 2019, 17:47

I recharged after approx 60 miles (10-15 miles off-road) and returned about 120Ah. :dance But scooters use lot less power than a powerchair.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby LROBBINS » 14 Apr 2019, 18:48

... the subsequent charge showed Capacity In of 110,418 mAh. That means I probably used a bit over 110 Ah in those 16.45 miles.

No, charging whether with Pb or Li, can never be 100% efficient, so you used less than 110 Ah. Burgerman may be able to guesstimate how much less.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby swalker » 14 Apr 2019, 21:42

I meant to say a bit over 100 Ah rather than 110. I would expect 110 in means I probably drained 100 to 105 Ah in those 16.45 miles if riding.

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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby shirley_hkg » 15 Apr 2019, 01:37

Scooterman wrote:I recharged after approx 60 miles (10-15 miles off-road) and returned about 120Ah. :dance


Wow ! :clap: That's a hundred Km trip . Where you've been ? :dirtbike :dirtbike
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby swalker » 15 Apr 2019, 02:36

Scooterman wrote:I recharged after approx 60 miles (10-15 miles off-road) and returned about 120Ah. :dance But scooters use lot less power than a powerchair.


Especially a wheelchair with 4 motors:).

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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Scooterman » 15 Apr 2019, 08:08

shirley_hkg wrote:
Wow ! :clap: That's a hundred Km trip . Where you've been ? :dirtbike :dirtbike
Longest road trip to date was 34 miles to windsor castle and back. Although it's not that far (about 12 miles), but I got lost czy . But I did get chased by an angry dog last week :ak47

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8761#p136502

swalker wrote:Especially a wheelchair with 4 motors:).

Steve

I know, I thought it sounded boastful when I typed it, but it wasn't meant that way, sorry :oops:

I've got powerchair too that has now got the scooter's old lead acids in it, but it gobbles them up a lot more than the scooter used to (and the scooter is about 50% faster). But I wonder whether that as well as the powerchair having two 4-pole motors (scooter has one 2-pole), there is a fair bit of transmission loss in the powerchair cos the motors are mounted at right angle to the drive? What with that and using the tank steering and most powerchairs being effing heavy (mine's v.light), they must gobble up a lot of juice. But it is what it is, 'needs must when the devil rides'... :dirtbike
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Burgerman » 15 Apr 2019, 09:30

You bomb along in a scooter at speed most of the time. That is where the LEAST amps are drawn.

In a powerchair you can use 100A per motor, turning on the spot without moving, and this heppens every time you turn. The battery provided huge Amps to turn the powerchair. It also provides huge amps to travel straight, against the road edge or footpath camber that drains water. But a scooter does not. Since its steers like a car.

A 4 pole motor. Uses LESS battery amps. More motor Amps. So will improve range. Its not about motor poles or brushes. Its really about impedance. The lower it is, the higher the motor current (torque) but the lower the battery Amps. So BETTER Range...
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Scooterman » 15 Apr 2019, 10:08

Ah! I knew you'd know why BM :worship

Pavement camber is real killer in a manual wheelchair, so I can understand how it saps energy from a powerchair. When I used to use my manual chair outside on side roads, I'd try and ride down the centre of the road (abreast the crown) as much as possible, with my ears tuned for cars! In fact a large part of using a manual chair is reading the surface contours and trying to use them to best effect.

I agree, I think the scooter uses very little amps when flat out on a smooth tarmac. In fact because I've got a voltmeter fitted to the dash, I notice that the battery volts drop more when I plug in my 24v element water heater, than when riding along flat out. And it's only small element that I drop into my travel mug to re-heat my coffee when it's gone luke warm.
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby swalker » 15 Apr 2019, 15:50

Scooterman wrote:I know, I thought it sounded boastful when I typed it, but it wasn't meant that way, sorry :oops:


There is nothing to be sorry about.

It gives me great joy to know that someone has a wheelchair that can go 60 miles and that they are capable of riding it that far. I don't think my body could handle that, so I will just have to live a bit vicariously.

I enjoy your posts and your stories.

Steve
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby snaker » 18 Apr 2019, 01:35

shirley_hkg wrote:
Scooterman wrote:I recharged after approx 60 miles (10-15 miles off-road) and returned about 120Ah. :dance


Wow ! :clap: That's a hundred Km trip . Where you've been ? :dirtbike :dirtbike


@Scooterman: Break it :joint

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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby expresso » 18 Apr 2019, 02:16

whats a good app for this - the ones i have keep closing on me - cant understand why - i start it - leave it alone - go ride - when i check its not open no recording

any good apps i can try ?
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby snaker » 18 Apr 2019, 02:35

I am using this one. It works fine and stable.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... cker&hl=en
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Re: Lithium Build for Magic Mobility X4

Postby Burgerman » 18 Apr 2019, 02:36

So its a bit better than before then? :clap
We have a winner.
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