15Ah Soneil Charger

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15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 14 Mar 2019, 01:17

Can I plug in a 15Ah Soneil Charger into my 646 SE?
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby martin007 » 14 Mar 2019, 01:24

Quickie 646 SE


The batteries you use are 50 ah?

What brand (manufacturer) of batteries do you use?
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2019, 01:29

Are you talking about a a charger fora 15Ah battery?
Or a 15 AMP charger?

Because if its the latter, then you cannot connect that via an XLR style charge port. Those are 12A max. If its to be connected via say anderson connectors then yes and it will likely be better and faster.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 14 Mar 2019, 01:31

They are 75AH lithium ion Smart Battery batteries.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby martin007 » 14 Mar 2019, 01:36

Lithium batteries require an appropriate charger.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 14 Mar 2019, 01:38

Would a 12Ah charger be ok?

Or how can I run a direct wire to my batteries with a Anderson connector on the outside?
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 14 Mar 2019, 01:40

The charger has a lithium profile.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2019, 01:56

Heres the problem, And why martin was talking about 50Ah batteries.

A battery is rated in Ah which is Amp Hours.
A charger is rated in Amps. Which is a measure of output current.

If you have a 15A charger it can be used on lead batteries but it cannot be connected to an XLR port. So you need to connect some heavier cable to the battery 24V and 0V terminals. And a connecting plug like the Anderson ones we use.

Not sure what rela\evance a lithium profile is?
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2019, 01:59

They are 75AH lithium ion Smart Battery batteries.

Missed that.

You are going to have problems sooner or later... And its an expensive way to gain about 35 % range.
Yes that will charge them.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby shirley_hkg » 14 Mar 2019, 02:16

BCrip71 wrote:Would a 12Ah charger be ok?

Or how can I run a direct wire to my batteries with a Anderson connector on the outside?


YES , if you made a heavier charging port , say Anderson SB50.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 14 Mar 2019, 02:23

The Smart Battery batteries have a BMS.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2019, 02:31

Yes. Thats the biggest problem with them. Its also why the capacity is just 75Ah the same as the lead you removed. The casings, and the BMS waste space where you could have fitted more than double the Ah.

For less money you can dump the BMS, use a better faster 40A capable advanced charger, that properly and more safely charges the battery. And you can dump the 70Ah battery and fit 180Ah into the very same place. The difference?

No BMS problems. Trust me you will have them.
And instead of a 35% about a third more range you can have 400% or FOUR TIMES the range. For the same cost. Thats why the dumb lead brick replacement is a bad idea.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 14 Mar 2019, 13:37

Not everyone has the physical ability or someone to help build a battery pack. Some must go with off the shelf solutions.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2019, 14:04

Maybe. I know of 3 people that tried those same batteries.

Nandol in portugal. A member that we think has since passed. Had to open them up in the end or his battery supplied did, and bypass the BMS as they kept cutting out on curbs or ramps etc leaving him stuck in several bits of portugal. He gained little in range over the lead he removed. Someone else on here too, with similar issues on a scooter and a local guy with balance and range issues. Theres others here with issues relating to the dreaded BMS!

Remember that you get around 40Ah from 74Ah lead bricks. Less if you go fast, more if you discharge them slowly.
But your 75Ah lithium will hopefully be discharged by 60Ah leaving 20% (15Ah) in reserve. For reasons of longevity and so you know the BMS will not chop off power and leave you stuck. So if you had 15 mile range you now have 22.

So it seems like you spend a lot, gain very little range for the outlay and maybe have serious getting stranded issues or other BMS problems... But your choice! They should work in a fashion at least to begin with.

Remember that fitting 8x 176Ah lifepo4 cells will give you 4.4x that 15 mile range, and 4x that, so 60 miles range, with 15Ah left in reserve for safety. For 800 dollars delivered.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby steves1977uk » 14 Mar 2019, 14:21

$2k for a pair :o You could fit 16 90Ah cells for half that price! What a rip-off! :cussing

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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2019, 14:28

No you can do that for half that price!

I have a quote here for 8x 176Ah cells delivered for 800 pounds, or 1100 US dollars to my door. For more than double the Ah.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby expresso » 14 Mar 2019, 16:03

Burgerman wrote:No you can do that for half that price!

I have a quote here for 8x 176Ah cells delivered for 800 pounds, or 1100 US dollars to my door. For more than double the Ah.



Are you going with those 176ah Cells ?
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 14 Mar 2019, 16:10

Not sure yet. Those or shirleys 90Ah ones.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby sin85 » 15 Mar 2019, 13:29

expresso wrote:
Burgerman wrote:No you can do that for half that price!

I have a quote here for 8x 176Ah cells delivered for 800 pounds, or 1100 US dollars to my door. For more than double the Ah.



Are you going with those 176ah Cells ?


I have those in my S14 system. Thus far they are good. I did have to use electrical tape though because their insulation is not the best.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 04 Apr 2019, 18:41

Is a 12A charger safe for my 646SE via XLR connection. My tech is saying 8A is the max.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 04 Apr 2019, 21:44

Yes it is. Ditch your 'tech' as he hasnt a clue.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby LROBBINS » 04 Apr 2019, 21:56

A decent XLR socket can take 12A, the wiring in the chair, however, may be so light weight that it cannot. If the chair manufacturer (not the tech) says 8 Amp max you may be risking overheating if you go over that.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 04 Apr 2019, 22:23

Except that its a PGDT system. So its rated at 12A RMS Max in its spec sheet as are all PGDT and Penny and giles products used on 646SE. And so unless its got battery cables that cant take 12A (which isnt possible) then it is definitely safe.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby LROBBINS » 05 Apr 2019, 08:36

Good to know that P&G systems will handle 12A.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 05 Apr 2019, 09:10

Yes its written in the specs of all their systems. For e.g the tech PDF (r-net one) is here:
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/program ... /R-Net.pdf

In addition it says:
Do not exceed the maximum charging current of 12A rms. Always use an off-board charger fitted with a Neutrik NC3MX plug. Failure to observe these conditions could result in poor contact resistance in the charger connector resulting in overheating of the charger plugs. This presents a potential burn hazard for the user. Curtiss-Wright accepts no liability for losses of any kind arising from failure to comply with this condition. P34


It says the same in the others like VR2 systems tech manuals, and the old pilot plus manual or the us rebranded qtronix, and also in the dynamic systems uses on my storm4. I think I read this for various dynamic remotes too, and I know that the dynamic bus cable is up to 20A max rms.
P21, http://sunrise.pgdrivestechnology.com/m ... 898-05.pdf

The only exceptions to this may be the sort of systems used on small shopping chairs or all in one units because I have not checked those as they dont really concern us here, such as the tiny all in one toylike D51427. The maximum charging current is 6A rms. But it comes with a warning. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/24v50A- ... e6dc199315

And the seperate dynamic remote charge cable. That is 8A.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby LROBBINS » 05 Apr 2019, 12:33

Understood. So, to make a system simpler than what you're using we'd need both the passive balance board I proposed plus a charger that reduces maximum current if any cell is low until the high cells are drained. If we could get into the programming of the ZXD it could probably be changed to do that.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 05 Apr 2019, 12:51

No. Because how can it know when a single high cells voltage is above say 3.600v?
It would need to be like the PL8. With balance connectors, and even then it can still not know how much mA, or when, or at what exact voltages the on board balancer or BMS is going to kick in. Or out. So delayed response.

The bms usually start at 0mV balance at CV and it increases the more out of balance it is. Most have very low balance capability. Like 100mA. So a cell exceeds its preset 3.65V PC it tries to reduce it in futile fashion, so they allow it to charge till it reaches some way too high overvoltage figure like 3.8V, then cut charger off for a while...

The PL8 takes care of all of that as an intergrated system. It can see the individual cell voltages, and so it knows and measures the cell balance currents that it applies. For E.g. if one cell is high, it can apply a 1A brake (pull down), and so it can only charge at all at 1A so reduces charge current accordingly. If that cell or cells is only a little out of balance it can apply only 10 or 250 or 670ma balance current - as required at 3.6V and charge ALL at that required rate (charge rate as long as top cell does not exceed max CV voltage of 3.600V or whatever you set). So it controls the charge current to stop the highest cell from exceeding the 3.600 or 3.550 or whatever you set. It also starts balancing at 3.5V and controls both balance and charge current in smooth proportional fashion. If charging at say 35A it reduces down to 1000mA or less if a cell becomes full. So that the 1000mA balancer can control the high cell voltage. Trying to have a BMS in the middle between a 2 wire charger, and the battery fed by 2 wires is stupid!
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby BCrip71 » 05 Apr 2019, 14:55

Thx!
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby LROBBINS » 05 Apr 2019, 15:19

No. Because how can it know when a single high cells voltage is above say 3.600v?
Those Analog Devices and TI monitor/balancer chips (which do connect to each cell) do exactly that and communicate by SPI to the outside world. I wouldn't be surprised if the PL-8 isn't using one of those too (or a more expensive active balancer to let it do things we don't want to do, like balancing during discharge). So the ZDX would have to know its at CV and would then respond to a message from the chip that says "cell < tot" by dropping its max Amps.
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Re: 15Ah Soneil Charger

Postby Burgerman » 05 Apr 2019, 15:35

SPI?
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