WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Jul 2019, 17:39

But you are the pack leader. He CANT go really, unless you do too. He wants you to go as that will make his day.
I had one already that was rather too good a guard dog. Nobody told him, he just decided to look after the den, and guard the rest of the pack. And tore lumps out of freinds, and anyone that just decides to come in unanounced.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby rollingcowboy » 09 Jul 2019, 07:53

Dumb as a bag of wet hair

made me laugh :lol:
or maybe I should say "now that there is funny" since you are from the south
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Jay_x » 13 Jul 2019, 04:14

Williamclark77 wrote:That's a nice piece of kit! I'd love to see some projects you've done with it.

The fun part has begun

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I am absolutely LOVING the front shock design.

I can see right now how that front wheel will hit a bump and instead of jarring the hell out of me it will just just recoil. Its great that the shock action isn't just up down, its actually rotating. Is this your own design?
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Jay_x » 13 Jul 2019, 04:17

Williamclark77 - do you have links to the threads with the other chairs you built?

thanks
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 13 Jul 2019, 16:15

It's all completely my design starting from nothing. I'm sure there are things on it similar to something else in the world, but it would just be from coincidence. You don't realize how much of a difference real suspension combined with fat soft tires makes. My back and kidneys couldn't return to hard gray rubber bands.

Search the forum for "WillChair" and you'll find the previous two builds. Or go to one of my websites. [url]WillsJunk.com[/url]. There's build pages. Look on the left.

The definition of tedious. It took a magnet, a screwdriver, keyboard, tea glass, my mouth, half a day, and many adjectives to position each of those wires to be soldered. It came out great though. This is the charge/balance connector that stays on the chair.

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Burgerman wrote:But you are the pack leader. He CANT go really, unless you do too. He wants you to go as that will make his day.
I had one already that was rather too good a guard dog. Nobody told him, he just decided to look after the den, and guard the rest of the pack. And tore lumps out of freinds, and anyone that just decides to come in unanounced.


He's pretty beta and listens to me quite well. To me only though. He was abused and possibly used as a "bait dog" for fighting when he was a pup. Some people got busted for fighting dogs near my work. That's where I found him. Hence why I named him Charpy. Google "Charpy impact testing" to understand. He certainly looked like he had been through that testing.

Unfortunately, he can't see another dog besides my dog and the other stray that lives here who are part of our pack. He gets scared and immediately attacks. He starts shaking at first sight. Very loving and affectionate to us and people he is familiar with, but will not let a stranger near. I can't see how people abuse dogs.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Jay_x » 13 Jul 2019, 23:59

Thanks Will. That video of your chair pulling that huge mowing rig is something else.

Also love to see you tearing thru the sand at hte beach. That looks amazing. No chair I have ever had has been able to go in sand.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby rollingcowboy » 16 Jul 2019, 07:33

hey Will, have you been getting all that rain from the storm?
hope you are on high ground
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Alex.L » 18 Jul 2019, 14:03

I just wanted to say, this is really incredible work! Thank you for sharing and documenting everything. Really looking forward to the rest!
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 19 Jul 2019, 05:05

We survived the "hurricane" that came through. As usual, they overhyped it. I'd like to know just how much money is generated from it. I just hope people actually take the media serious when an actual dangerous system does hit. We did get a massive amount of rain. Thanks for asking.

A little southwest of me had terrible flooding. They had the money to prevent it. Instead, they voted to speed all of the money erasing their history.

The W2 does good on the beach as long as you're smart about it. She will sink in that dry powder sand. I made a ski that clips on the front. You can't see it. It goes under the bottom just behind the feetrest. It'll go through the powder with it as long as you don't try to turn or stop and reverse.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Scooterman » 19 Jul 2019, 19:14

Nice shiny solder joints Will! A sign of good soldiering :worship
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 28 Jul 2019, 05:55

I turned it on today to test and everything worked the first try. Hardware wise anyway. Still have a bit to figure out on the software and tidy up some wiring before any seat time.

Dumb question for you electromagicians - On the rs232 to ttl converter, does the ground and vcc need to be connected? The converter plugs into the DB9 connector on the Roboteq. Like this one: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233257882314

The Arduino is externally powered by a 5v supply running to the usb B connector.

I'm held up on that until a new one comes in. The one I ordered is a male. I didn't notice the Roboteq was a male until I went to connect it. banghead D'oh!
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby ICEUK » 28 Jul 2019, 08:35

Puts the little mods i have done to shame lol, well done will..
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby woodygb » 28 Jul 2019, 09:53

Williamclark77 wrote:I turned it on today to test and everything worked the first try. Hardware wise anyway. Still have a bit to figure out on the software and tidy up some wiring before any seat time.

Dumb question for you electromagicians - On the rs232 to ttl converter, does the ground and vcc need to be connected? The converter plugs into the DB9 connector on the Roboteq. Like this one: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233257882314

The Arduino is externally powered by a 5v supply running to the usb B connector.

I'm held up on that until a new one comes in. The one I ordered is a male. I didn't notice the Roboteq was a male until I went to connect it. banghead D'oh!


You connect both ....This image may help.

Image
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Burgerman » 28 Jul 2019, 10:20

Hes done more than the big manufacturers do. They buy in standardised parts inc wheels, batteries, control system, joystick, motors, etc etc. And they make a frame. Wills is 100% him. An army on 1. No development team, no outside control system, battery system experts, parts suppliers reps, etc. Just him.

Will has gone DIY design on motors (brushless geared) using his system, roboteq and home made joystick and electronics, wheels, tyres, and lennys software, and 48V lithium battery etc etc. As well as the only bit the big manufacturers make, the frame.

Puts the little mods i have done to shame lol, well done will..


Quite! I think most useres do not quite understand how much will has done and how complex it is. Compared to buying in standardised parts that the manufacturers like sunrise or invacare do. And instead of big budgets and teams of advisers and outside experts he is just ONE guy doing the lot, BETTER with brushless, tubeless, lithium, fat tyres, 48V for efficiency and speed, and more with a development budget of a few beers.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Scooterman » 28 Jul 2019, 10:48

Burgerman wrote:Quite! I think most useres do not quite understand how much will has done and how complex it is. Compared to buying in standardised parts that the manufacturers like sunrise or invacare do. And instead of big budgets and teams of advisers and outside experts he is just ONE guy doing the lot, BETTER with brushless, tubeless, lithium, fat tyres, 48V for efficiency and speed, and more with a development budget of a few beers.

AND being a wheelchair user himself with 'quad hands' (I think), it is truly amazing. And so fast from start to almost finished!!! :shock: :dirtbike
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 28 Jul 2019, 18:39

Woody, thanks. I saw that diagram. Roboteq also has a FAQ answer showing similar. I just don't understand why it needs the 5v and ground connected to the Arduino unless it's for reference or powers the converter's processor itself. I was trying to avoid including two more wires unless absolutely necessary.

ICEUK wrote:Puts the little mods i have done to shame lol, well done will..

Not at all. It's good to see everybody's mods that are done to make their chairs better. It provides inspiration as well. That's one of the main reasons I take the time to do this thread. If I can do this with my physical limitations on my blue collar budget then anyone can.

Scooterman wrote:AND being a wheelchair user himself with 'quad hands' (I think), it is truly amazing. And so fast from start to almost finished!!! :shock: :dirtbike

Yep. It's annoying. I can machine parts to near aerospace tolerances and TIG weld anything from aluminum to cast iron but can't turn a Phillip's screw or squeeze wire strippers to save my life. I can tip regular strippers though! :D

My better 3/4 is a HUGE help on those things when time allows. In turn, I do all of the woman bs she asks with a smile on my face and no complaints (art least none out loud).

Burgerman wrote:I think most useres do not quite understand how much will has done and how complex it is.


Uh huh. Weekly I get tagged or somebody sends me a link to one of those tankchairs or ibots with a comment like "you should've just bought this...." by a well meaning individual. I don't even acknowledge it anymore.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Burgerman » 28 Jul 2019, 18:46

Because what you are doing is in a different world to those things. And sadly 99.9% of people cant tell the difference. They just do not get any of it. You would be amazed at what a low level of thinking/knowledge the vast majority of the population are at.

Its why I always laugh when I her someone here has "emailed a manufacturer" as if they are going to have a damned clue! If they get a reply (unlikely) it will be well meaning official but complete bollox.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 28 Jul 2019, 18:52

Who all has released the magic smoke from an expensive electronic device today? Me!

Ugh. Jacked up the rear tires. Powered up the Roboteq this morning. Loaded the script. Set everything up. Motors turned as commanded but sounded rough. Changed a few settings. Restarted. Gave a little joystick. Smoke from inside the Roboteq and the case was hot. Motor amps showed a max of 21 and 22 on M1 and M2. Short circuit protection was on. Stall protection was on. Quadruple checked the UVW motor wires. Cold to the touch and definitely not shorted.

Pulled the cover off and it looks like it burnt between two mosfets on one side. Oh well. Another problem for another day. Too much other stuff to do to fool with it right now.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Burgerman » 28 Jul 2019, 19:01

Oops. Thats how we learn. Could be a script error that rapidly tries to do backwards and fowards. Thats what killed a gearbox on the BM3 even though it was off the deck. Took around .3 of a second before I switched it off. Long enough.

So now I always test new scripts at 12V (setting in roboteq) instead of 45V. Its kinder in the event anything is wrong. Mosfet is a transistor. Fastest fuse on 3 legs. So no warm motor cables, the short is in the mosfets.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby woodygb » 28 Jul 2019, 19:02

I just don't understand why it needs the 5v and ground connected to the Arduino unless it's for reference or powers the converter's processor itself.
...RS232 signal voltage is very different to TTL.

RS-232 standard a logic high ('1') is represented by a negative voltage – anywhere from -3 to -25V – while a logic low ('0') transmits a positive voltage that can be anywhere from +3 to +25V
...Whilst TTL ...
range from 0 volts to 0.8 volts for a “low” logic state, and 2 volts to 5 volts for a “high” logic state
Hence the need for 5v ( or 3.3v) supply to the TTL side.

So... Yes it powers the processors convertor
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby woodygb » 28 Jul 2019, 19:24

Will ...I have found those fet's to be a Royal P.I.T.A to unsolder.... In fact I buggered up a "dead" Roboteq trying to remove some that had blown.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 28 Jul 2019, 20:11

"For sale: Slightly used Roboteq. Less than one minute of use."

I have some mosfets around here somewhere that should work as well as an older Roboteq. They definitely don't look like they want to be replaced. The motherboard feels solidly affixed to the heatsink/case. I'm going to wait until someone with operational fingers are around before I do more damage than good disassembling it.

The manual does warn that if you don't have some settings for the encoders correct that it could cause damage. I certainly didn't think it would be that quick and easy.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby LROBBINS » 28 Jul 2019, 23:01

Will, though you may well have done something that let out the magic smoke, don't be too quick to make assumptions. Unless you plan to actually try to repair it yourself, I suggest you ask Roboteq tech support whether they could do a teardown to diagnose what happened. I have had three units fail and each time, though kinda slow to get it done, their teardown did find the faults. Once, my doing - I'd let contaminated water get into the unit and it corroded things to hell. Twice it was not my fault - once a failed CPLD (complex programmable logic device) that they think had been static damaged during assembly, and once a cracked via. Do be forewarned that a repair on the high current board, if your unit is put together like the HDC2450, will not be simple -- Roboteq had to cut the board into two pieces to get it out to find that open via (or just chose to do so because they already knew it was bad and not worth repairing and that was the easiest way to get test leads on both sides of the board).

When you do get a working replacement, do test things thoroughly before trusting your magnificent chair to it. Test the script as thoroughly as you can without any motors connected. Do that again with a variety of different user settings watching carefully in Roborun. Keep good notes and let everyone here know what's happening at each step. If anything doesn't look quite right, stop until a fix is found and tested. Think about starting with the latest version of the Analog script and adding your customizations (e.g. accel pot coding) to it. If you do modify a script, make sure to send me a copy so I can cross compare it with what I have.

When you first connect motors, run them from the Roborun sliders without any script running and with lower voltage, reduced current limit, lower acceleration settings etc. Review what the manual says about testing the Hall sensor connections before running the motors. You might also consider putting some low resistance, high wattage resistors in series with each of the motor windings to limit current (e.g. 10 ohm, 1 Watt resistors if running at 12V - that will limit current about 1A counting in the resistance of the motor windings). Consider first testing with some old motors or cheap low-power brushless motors bought just for the testing rather than your quite expensive new ones. Be absolutely ready to hit the "kill" button if anything seems even slightly amiss. When you do download a script, set all of the user settings to much more conservative values than you think you'll eventually want, and turn the speed pot way down.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 30 Jul 2019, 02:31

If only I had the forethought to heed such advice. I had to go big from the get go. I loaded the profile from W2, modified to fit the W3 setup, loaded the script, and touched the joystick. You know, the cautious method.

If I was certain I wasn't at fault I'd hit up Roboteq. I (finally) got the burnt mosfet out. It literally popped. Very easy to spot. I don't know what type of solder they used but it refused to turn loose or flow into any desoldering wick. I haven't soldered a new one in yet. I will when the opportunity and an assistant is near.

I have no way to test except set up as it will be used. Making a test setup would require far more time and effort than any assistant I have would endure.

Soon as I get it back going I will be far more careful.

PS. I just saw your post in the Roboteq thread about the internal current sensors and motor compensator. I brought that up a few pages back on this build thread. That along with sinusoidal should make brushless behave quite well.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Scooterman » 30 Jul 2019, 08:22

Williamclark77 wrote:I have no way to test except set up as it will be used. Making a test setup would require far more time and effort than any assistant I have would endure.

.

I shall keep my fingers crossed for you, you've worked so hard :thumbup:
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby LROBBINS » 30 Jul 2019, 08:29

Will,

Some things can be tested even in your final setup.
(1) If you can unplug the motors, you can test with no load.
(2) You can test without the script running by just using the sliders in Roborun - with the wheels off the ground. (Remember to turn off "autorun" in the profile.)
(3) You can set very conservative parameter values when you start to use the script, and still don't autorun.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 31 Jul 2019, 16:32

Replacing the mosfet wasn't that bad. Getting to it and actually removing it, well, that's a different story.

It immediately popped when the Roboteq was powered on. I can't get to the point of trying to go through the calibration routine again. I set the Roboteq up with 10 amps max, short circuit protection on fast, stall protection as low as it will go, analog disabled, no script, etc. Safe as possible. I replaced the mosfet again. Popped immediately when powered on, before Roborun could even connect.

So, either my Roboteq is faulty or the motor is shorted internally. I'll try replacing it one more time and disconnecting the motors later. Disconnecting the motors is not that easy. If it still blows it's the Roboteq. If it doesn't it's the motor. I seriously hope it's the Roboteq. I did send their support an email last night.

There's your problem :ak47

Image

Here's what the guts look like. You can see the current sensors on the VW wires. Note the missing mosfet on the top right. I had already removed it.

Image

The new mosfet is the one on the far left. I did put new thermal compound on them all since I had a tube leftover from my last computer build.

Image

I didn't (re)reassemble everything the second time. The click sound is the power switch. It literally pops immediately before even booting up.

https://www.willsjunk.com/WillChair-3/n-LLLZxT/i-fNrhdPS/A
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Irving » 31 Jul 2019, 16:53

That's impressive Will :? :(

What MOSFET is fitted and what are you replacing it with? Even if motor is short the controller shouldn't be supplying volts to it at power up. That looks like a more fundamental problem to me. I'd try powering up without fitting a new MOSFET as you've got enough in parallel to run at low ten's of amps and check overall operation.
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Williamclark77 » 31 Jul 2019, 17:07

IRFB3077. I couldn't even see the numbers until now after taking the pictures with flash.

Original

Image

Replacement. Pirated from another HBL2360 I had. Yes, it was cleaned up prior to installation.

Image
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Re: WillChair Three - Let's Build it!

Postby Irving » 31 Jul 2019, 17:20

75v 210A continuous (on heatsink) so I'd suspect one or more of the other MOSFETs are compromised as well...

I'd strip them all off and test individually...
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