R-net

[Burgerman]

I dont understand what you need all that stuff for. You ONLY need an input. IOM or OMNI or in fact any old joystick and a soldering iron in most cases.

And a joystick with either analog output, or digital (4 switches) non analog output. Thats it. What does that BT art achieve other than increased inaccuracy, less reliability, and extra latency?

Seem like you are going all around the town to get next door.

[wheelie junkie]

After spending some time RTFM the Omni DB9 ports are both SID inputs. The output communication cable goes to the R Net system so I will need an IOM to connect the Tecla to. Then configure using a spare mode in R Net software. Just need to find an IOM at a reasonable price...

[Burgerman]

Can you explain what part bluetooth plays and why its needed at all?

And why this "tecla' thing requires an output (of what? Signal, volts, and why) from the r-net?

EDIT. Just spent 30 mins eading everything there is on the tecla site. Its as clear as mud.
Seems that to use your device to drive a wheelchair you only need set the IOM (OR Omni port 1 or 2) to a switch input. Its not a proportional device. Only on/off in 4 directions.
If you want to control external devices with the wheelchairs jotystick you need either a spare port on the IOM, or OMNI set to OUTPUT. In programming it is one or the other. Both will work. BT module not needed...

But not sure as theres no actual tech info on the site. The best is a wiring diagram of the serioal out from the gadget. Which sows that it is output ONLY. So will connect equally to Omni port 1 or 2 or IO box. So you likely wont need an IOModule.

[wheelie junkie]

The only way to control an iphone or ipad is via bluetooth, the Tecla provides that bluetooth communication. I use it with an optical switch at the moment but it is stupid when I have a joystick in front of me. The Tecla just needs a command from a switch (the joystick acts as that switch) to send a bluetooth command to the iphone. I've got no idea whether it is volts I just know how all the bits link together and think that I can configure R Net using mode 4 with input as raw and output as IOM3 the first unused one. The confusion came from thinking Omni had different outputs, it doesn't, it has 2 inputs for SID's and a single output communication cable back to the R Net.

[Burgerman]

The only way to control an iphone or ipad is via bluetooth, the Tecla provides that bluetooth communication. I use it with an optical switch at the moment but it is stupid when I have a joystick in front of me.

Where is this joystick. On the tecla or on the R-Net system? If its on the chair you need a BT output on the chair, and I have no idea how thats going to be configured or work. Or an OUTPUT (no input will then be possible from the IOM).

The Tecla just needs a command from a switch (the joystick acts as that switch) to send a bluetooth command to the iphone. I've got no idea whether it is volts I just know how all the bits link together and think that I can configure R Net using mode 4 with input as raw and output as IOM3 the first unused one. The confusion came from thinking Omni had different outputs, it doesn't, it has 2 inputs for SID's and a single output communication cable back to the R Net.

Again which joystick/switch? The Omni, or the IOM are basically the same at least for this job. And the Omni is more configurable. But its port is input only. Although theres TWO on the omni.

So you should not require an IOM. UNLESS you mean to use a wheelchair R-Net joystick and not the one on your tecla.

I paid around 120 for a new IOM, plus shipping direct from PG.

[wheelie junkie]

The joystick is my wheelchair control Mo Vis multi connected to R Net via one Omni input. You can get an idevice bluetooth module from PG, easy enough to connect and configure one mode for and configure different direction joystick pushes to do different things on the IOS. Downside is it is £400.

The Tecla doesn't have a joystick, it is usually controlled by a simple button switch. The Omni doesn't have a second output just connection to R Net so I have to connect Tecla to R Net which means an IOM, I'm clear enough with that now and how to configure.

R Net idevice bluetooth module would be best but is a lot more expensive than the IOM if it is only £120.

[steves1977uk]

Ebay... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PG-DRIVES-Bl ... 3475480844

Steve

[Burgerman]

120 or very close, dont remember exactly, you may want:

Manual tech .pdf and
PGs vat exemption...

[LROBBINS]

John,

Bluetooth is involved only to allow him to work his phone from the wheechair, not the other way around.

[wheelie junkie]

Thanks for the link Steve and files BM. Did you buy IOM direct from PG BM? Do you need an account with them?

[Burgerman]

John,
Bluetooth is involved only to allow him to work his phone from the wheechair, not the other way around.

Lenny, wheelie junky, My joysticks allows that already - BT built in. And infra-red so I can control the TV in the pub! And my own, lights, etc. Built in. Elryko has many for sale. At a sensible price if you ask... I bought 2 for 125 each, although not from him as it happens...

BT and IR built in.

Screen Shot 2018-03-22 at 07.37.50.png (281.24 KiB) Viewed 10402 times

Yes I have had an account at PG since buying OEM programmer in 97, as I build chairs, reprogram others inc a soccer team etc. And use it to buy PMs, joysticks, cables, IOM, etc over the years. Not sure if that makes it any cheaper or not. Certainly a LOT cheaper than buying from a chair manufacturer although YOU are the programmer, configurator, decision maker.

[wheelie junkie]

I can't use a normal joystick, chin control and with limited movement. Cheapest short throw micro joystick I can find is Mo Vis multi at about £1400. No bluetooth options available. Only way I can do it is idevice module, swap to Omni 2 which has bluetooth or IOM to Tecla. Omni 2 is the easiest and most expensive option.

Even if I could move 1 finger life would be so much easier

[Burgerman]

Undoubtedly. Is your joystick proportional? If not theres a connector on the joysticks I have here that allow external control. Or switching as an input.

No bluetooth options available.

It might be quite easy to add or make a BT module or output in the same way that I did on the PL8v2 charger. Woody may know better. He is much more into electronics and stuff. That was under the cost of 2 s! And is foolproof.

[Burgerman]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PERMOBIL-QUI ... SwjrFb7eNV

[wheelie junkie]

Yeah, proportional for that price it should be. I did have a head control system which was non proportional and was about £3k, POS it went back to be replaced by a joystick.

I've got a working system now using an eye sensor, when I blink it triggers the Tecla so can use my phone but joystick would be simpler, thanks for the offer.

It'll be hard to figure out a system to share or split the joystick to the Omni and bluetooth and for me to be able to do the swap. I hit this problem a lot, crazy voice control systems that you need to push a button for it to listen to you for example.

I will check out prices of IOM, it is the cheapest option and just needs connecting to R Net and simple configuration. Just need to work out what to plug it into and how to access it. German engineering and an electronics box you can't open without dismantling the chair!

[wheelie junkie]

Thanks for the links, as usual shipping and duty bump it up. I'm hoping Rover has something in his cupboard

[rover220]

After spending some time RTFM the Omni DB9 ports are both SID inputs. .

i did give the info needed to save that time!!

[rover220]

The joystick is my wheelchair control Mo Vis multi connected to R Net via one Omni input. You can get an idevice bluetooth module from PG, easy enough to connect and configure one mode for and configure different direction joystick pushes to do different things on the IOS. Downside is it is £400.

.

i can do one idevice module much cheaper than that

[rover220]

John,
Bluetooth is involved only to allow him to work his phone from the wheechair, not the other way around.

Lenny, wheelie junky, My joysticks allows that already - BT built in. And infra-red so I can control the TV in the pub! And my own, lights, etc. Built in. Elryko has many for sale. At a sensible price if you ask... I bought 2 for 125 each, although not from him as it happens...

Screen Shot 2018-03-22 at 07.37.50.png

Yes I have had an account at PG since buying OEM programmer in 97, as I build chairs, reprogram others inc a soccer team etc. And use it to buy PMs, joysticks, cables, IOM, etc over the years. Not sure if that makes it any cheaper or not. Certainly a LOT cheaper than buying from a chair manufacturer although YOU are the programmer, configurator, decision maker.

i dont think his have bt built in, there are 2 versions of the joystick and its elementry when he is using a sid via omni.

your best option i think is an i device module.

[rover220]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PERMOBIL-QUICKIE-BLUE-TOOTH-MODULE-M300-C300-C500-F3-F5-M3-M5-D51523-01/163663944321?hash=item261b219a81:g:YYoAAOSwjrFb7eNV

thats a bt mouse 2 not an an idevice module and will not work without a bt mouse 1 module

[Burgerman]

You are deciding which of the 2 modules it is, from that 2 in the rectangular box in the 2nd picture?

Or the .xxxx on the code?

[rover220]

You are deciding which of the 2 modules it is, from that 2 in the rectangular box in the 2nd picture?

Or the .xxxx on the code?

it says bt mouse on the side

[Burgerman]

Ah... Well spotted. I need glasses!

From the manual.

The R-net Bluetooth Modules allow a wheelchair user to control a Bluetooth enabled device through the R-net Control System, either through a Joystick or via a Specialty Input Device(SID) connected to the R-net Omni. Typical applications include PC mouse control or operation of a Smart device. Up to two Mouse Modules and one iDevice Module may be connected into an R-net Control System, so enabling simultaneous control of three Bluetooth devices, one being an iOS device. However, the Mouse Modules must be of different PGDT part numbers –D51111 and D51523; and the iDevice Module must be D51580.

If two Mouse Modules or two iDevice Modules of the same part number are connected, then the system will not function correctly. If only one Mouse Module is required, then any of the Mouse Module part numbers may be used. Here is a summary of the current part numbers: D51111 –Mouse Module –Can be used with PC or Android Smart devices D51523 – Mouse Module – Can be used with PC or Android Smart devices D51580 –iDevice Module –Can only be used with iDevices

So theres 3 different modules. So thats not at all stupid. Or complex. The 2 different mouse ones need to be different in the event you have more than 1 (maybe for laptop and PC? or android phone) and a third one for a iphone/ipad. That could work out rather expensive! Most people have one of each or more. You will end up bankrupt and a chair with hemeroids.

Wheras, the latest joystick with th BT built in can control all your devices. Just choose which from the memory on screen.

R-net Joystick Module CJSM2-BT
The next-generation R-net Joystick Modules set new standards in user-interfaces – not least from the inclusion of a large, high-resolution and modern LCD screen.

Integrated Bluetooth technology is an option, to enable control of computers, Android tablets, iPads, iPhones and other smart devices from a powerchair. Available Bluetooth devices are displayed in a menu on a large, high-resolution screen and joystick commands are used to select and operate the various devices. To switch between the devices, the user simply navigates the menu and selects the device they wish to control. The CJSM2 will seamlessly connect and reconnect between the available devices.

[wheelie junkie]

Omni2 would have been the way to go when I ordered my chair but too late now. Chin control joysticks are limited in function, they need to be relatively light especially if you are stupid enough to fit to a swing away mount.

It is very confusing trying to work out what is best especially when you have to avoid 2 identical items other than their part numbers.

idevice module at the right price seems like it might be easiest and give better iphone control

[rover220]

you can have upto 4 modules on a chair, 2 for windows/android and 2 for ios.

the new omni has 4 bt chips built in as standard and the new cjsm2 has the option for 4 built in chips.

[Burgerman]

R-Net has great diagnostics tools built in that can give a guy with a brain a lot of useful info! Take a look at the battery Amps, volts as you drive. And individual motor volts and amps all in real time.

For e.g here, I am monitoring the power module. as I attempt a zero speed turn on carpet although a small curb will shows the exact same thing.

Both of these requires a lot of torque or in this case MOTOR AMPS! Same thing. Motor amps and battery amps are VERY VERY different things.

Heres the rnet OEM software showing real time data as I turn in place on a thick carpet. The start of a zero turn.

Look at battery voltage compared to motor Volts.
Look at motor Amps, compared to battery Amps.

[Burgerman]

M1 (Motor 1) current 102.1A
At 10.1V turning the chair on thick carpet.

M2 (Motor 2) current 113.7
At 10.7V -- so basically the same.

So at 24V it would draw 255Amps loaded heavily... Limited to 120A by the controller.
How do we know? Easy, if you divide the motor current we see, by the volts, you get 10.63 Amps per volt at close to stalled speed. And 10.63 x 24V is 255Amps.



So this motor, would be around the same, 255A almost stalled at 24V.
So would the other one...

The actual stall current would be a little bit higher, but the chair was still just moving. And so a little extra load would have seen the controller limit it firmly to 120A per motor at around 11V.

Now if we add up the two measured motor currents, we see 113 + 102 = 215 total motor amps. But if we look at the BATTERY Amps, we see that its just under 25 Amps!!!

When I say that motor amps are NOT the same as battery amps you can now see what I mean. If these were high impedance (2 pole motors) the 120A limit MAY just be reached just the same. So they will have almost the same stump pulling power. But torque falls away rapidly - even at 1mph, as the motor speeds up compared to a 4 pole. And it would take 21V to achieve the same torque. At DOUBLE the BATTERY Amps... If that hurts your head feel free to ask questions. Your head may explode. Its not intuitive!

[Burgerman]

And while I was wandering about with the laptop on my knee I noted this.

My street is a very slight hill. Just about enough for a bike to freewheel. And make it more difficult to pedal in one direction.

In my chair. It takes 37 to 40 BATTERY Amps to go 6mph UP the street. And just 2 Amps to go 6mph DOWN the street.

To travel along the footpath on one side of the street takes 14 A. To travel along the other side takes 23A. Because one side has a 2 degree slant towards the road so it drains better. So slight you cant see it easily.

To travel along the road centre takes 12A but to travel along the edge, where the road is cambered slightly to drain into the curb, takes nearly 39A!

You really should connect a laptop, and go for a drive. Its a sure way to understand why you never get close to the same range 2 days on the trot.

[foghornleghorn]

I do have a question but it isn't specifically R-Net so feel free to split it out from this thread to somewhere else.

Motor length. Looking at the cylindrical body of the motor some are long and some are noticeably shorter. Does this have any bearing on the motors performance or ability to generate torque?

[Burgerman]

It doesent really. What actually matters is motor efficiency. And motor impedance.

A motor thats long and thin with the same design/etc with the same impedance will have the same POWER. But it may be higher RPM with less torque. Thats neither a good or a bad thing. It means that after the gearbox has translated this into the same roadspeed the torque or pushing force, at the road is the same.

Because torque x rpm = power (watts in this case - volts x amps).

So all else equal, a motor that takes 100A stalled at 24V, if geared for the same top speed (gear ratio, tyre diameter) will have the same torque AT THE WHEEL. Weather its 2 pole, 4 pole, thin, fat or indifferent.

Another way to think about this is this.

Take a 150BHP big heavy diesel engine that revs to just 3000 rpm in a truck. And replace it with a 150BHP bike engine, that needs to rev to 12,000 rpm but still makes 150HP. It makes 1/4 the torque at the motor BUT at 4x the RPM. Net result is the same power. Torque x rpm = power. And power is watts.

Now. You would THINK that the bike engine has less torque, and would not work in that truck. But you would be wrong. Because once you apply all the correct gearing, to make the trucks speed the same with both motors, the torque at the wheels is going to be identical. But the driver may go deaf. The truck would do the same hills. The same acceleration, the same top speed from the same power. And with 1/4 the engine torque.

The bike has 4x less torque. But spins 4x faster. So you need to reduce that to the same wheel speed by gearing it a lot, 4x lower. That increases torque by 4x. A gearbox is a torque multiplier.

Going back to electric motors. You only need to know the stall current (all else equal) to determine performance at any given roadspeed. It lets you draw a graph like this: Its the same for every DC motor.