wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

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wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 08 Jul 2019, 19:24

Okay I want to be able to put two Odyssey PC1500R 12v 68ah batteries in this. I also want to be able to switch to lithium.

(I want to be able to switch between the 2 in case the airline is not happy about carrying a home-made lithium battery.)

I want to be able to charge the 2 Odyssey batteries with my Hyperion charger.

Is there a good place to read about how to do the correct wiring to achieve this?

I wonder if there is any tips about the placement of the Anderson connector for charging. And any tips about the setup of the Hyperion for charging to dry cell batteries.


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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Burgerman » 08 Jul 2019, 19:33

All over this site, and all over this forum, repeated in many threads.

Whats the SPECIFIC question? Theres 101 ways to do this.

Connect the PACK to the chair with an anderson. Both lead and lithium.
Wire each pack as required to do that.

As far as the charging goes. Fit whatever charge connector to each pack that you prefer or want to use. I prefer the sub D connectors, that are good for 40A. For lithium. And Anderson 12+12 parallel charge or 24 series, for lead.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 08 Jul 2019, 23:00

I know you're right mate. I just been searching the forum, and reading it for a couple of hours still haven't got what I need to know. It isn't that there isn't enough information, it just seems to be information overload. What I need is really basic.



So I wire them in series to get 24 V. I go from negative terminal to positive terminal on one wire, then I have two wires one going from the positive terminal one going to the negative that go into a plug which plugs into the R-net controller?
https://imgur.com/a/hCtTJWl
Back in the day when I was a mechanic, you had a big connector which you clamped with a bolt onto the battery terminal. In your picture it looks like a little connector. Is that it? Do you just put a self tapping screw into the terminal with that connector?
https://imgur.com/a/9LPymnW
Charging cable? Then do I just connect positive and negative cable to an Anderson, and then connect to the positive and negative "output" terminals on the batteries?
https://imgur.com/a/DcfZ48Z
what is the name of the connector with the green circle round it, and the one with the brown circle round it?
https://imgur.com/a/bMOFW4h
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Burgerman » 08 Jul 2019, 23:17

1. Is a series connected battery.

2. Is a stock loom from a chair. Basically some barely adequate cables, with 6mm ring terminals that connect to the battery and anderson 50 connectors. This loom just does exactly as described in 1 above.

3. https://imgur.com/a/DcfZ48Z Yes...

4. Anderson... To connect they all need to be the same colour. Or black/grey.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby ex-Gooserider » 09 Jul 2019, 00:44

One of the questions is if you want to be able to charge the 12V batteries in parallel (i.e. directly from your car) at all or not.... It is somewhat simpler if you don't need / want to do this....

Divide the setup into two sections - inside the battery box and outside it.... Outside the box should be essentially identical no matter what is in the box. Inside depends on the type of battery, but the same stuff comes out...

Basically there are two different sets of wires -

1. The high-current wires that feed power to the chair, and that do all or most of the charging. These can be the same basic configuration
2. The 'balance' wires that are ONLY needed with Lithium. These wires do NOT connect to anything on the chair itself other than the lithium batteries

I think it is easiest to keep the wires going to power the chair separate from the charging wires... You need two wires from the 24V output terminals of the batteries to the input to the power module... Optionally you can put a set of Anderson SB-50's in the middle so that you have a 'pigtail' off each pack that connects to the chair wires.

For charging you can either have separate connectors for charging and balance or just stick with a charge and balance combined in a D-sub (and just don't use the balance pins for lead)

Since the D-subs we have been using only have 3 pins for power wiring (we only use two) if you want to be able to do parallel charging on lead, you need to do separate connectors as that needs 4 contacts (BM uses two SB-50 Andersons, I use PP-75's )

It would also be possible to have two different style charge hookups for the lead and lithium packs, and different cables to go to the charger....

Inside the battery box, for lead you either need a jumper connecting the middle two battery terminals (if NOT charging in parallel) OR a lead from each battery terminal to the outside, with appropriate connectors, and a jumper to connect the middle two when using the chair... For Lithium, you need the jumpers that tie the cells together, and the balance wiring....

There are all sorts of possible ways of doing things - you just need to figure out what you want to accomplish and then it becomes fairly straightforward to figure out how to do it....


funkykeyboard wrote:I know you're right mate. I just been searching the forum, and reading it for a couple of hours still haven't got what I need to know. It isn't that there isn't enough information, it just seems to be information overload. What I need is really basic.
So I wire them in series to get 24 V. I go from negative terminal to positive terminal on one wire, then I have two wires one going from the positive terminal one going to the negative that go into a plug which plugs into the R-net controller?
https://imgur.com/a/hCtTJWl
Note that you pictures show 6V batteries - WRONG! We use 12V batteries... (otherwise the drawings are OK)
Back in the day when I was a mechanic, you had a big connector which you clamped with a bolt onto the battery terminal. In your picture it looks like a little connector. Is that it? Do you just put a self tapping screw into the terminal with that connector?
https://imgur.com/a/9LPymnW
Depends on the battery, most use some sort of screw or bolt - size depends on the terminal.
Charging cable? Then do I just connect positive and negative cable to an Anderson, and then connect to the positive and negative "output" terminals on the batteries?
https://imgur.com/a/DcfZ48Z
Yes
what is the name of the connector with the green circle round it, and the one with the brown circle round it?
https://imgur.com/a/bMOFW4h

Green circle looks like a pair of shrink-tubed grey Anderson SB-50's. Not sure about the brown circle, looks like the plug that goes into a P&G power module (I think they use the same one on both R-net and Pilot+)

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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 09 Jul 2019, 20:05

Burgerman wrote:1. Is a series connected battery.

2. Is a stock loom from a chair. Basically some barely adequate cables, with 6mm ring terminals that connect to the battery and anderson 50 connectors. This loom just does exactly as described in 1 above.

3. https://imgur.com/a/DcfZ48Z Yes...

4. Anderson... To connect they all need to be the same colour. Or black/grey.
2. Picture was from here http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/off-roa ... rchair.htm
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images-rebuild/loom.jpg
so if you wanted to construct your own loom, what would the plug that looks into the r-net be called on eBay?
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Burgerman » 09 Jul 2019, 20:29

You wont find them on eBay. Theres 3 options.

Use a R-Net battery loom from a 120A chair -- ebay, or a chair manufacturer.
Use the correct plugs, available from PGDT -- best option.
Use no plastic plug as such, just use the terminals, which are 9.5mm blade terminals for battery and motor wires. And 6.3mm ones for brakes.


...

Image
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 09 Jul 2019, 21:23

ex-Gooserider wrote:One of the questions is if you want to be able to charge the 12V batteries in parallel (i.e. directly from your car) at all or not.... It is somewhat simpler if you don't need / want to do this....

Divide the setup into two sections - inside the battery box and outside it.... Outside the box should be essentially identical no matter what is in the box. Inside depends on the type of battery, but the same stuff comes out...

Basically there are two different sets of wires -

1. The high-current wires that feed power to the chair, and that do all or most of the charging. These can be the same basic configuration
2. The 'balance' wires that are ONLY needed with Lithium. These wires do NOT connect to anything on the chair itself other than the lithium batteries

I think it is easiest to keep the wires going to power the chair separate from the charging wires... You need two wires from the 24V output terminals of the batteries to the input to the power module... Optionally you can put a set of Anderson SB-50's in the middle so that you have a 'pigtail' off each pack that connects to the chair wires.

For charging you can either have separate connectors for charging and balance or just stick with a charge and balance combined in a D-sub (and just don't use the balance pins for lead)

Since the D-subs we have been using only have 3 pins for power wiring (we only use two) if you want to be able to do parallel charging on lead, you need to do separate connectors as that needs 4 contacts (BM uses two SB-50 Andersons, I use PP-75's )

It would also be possible to have two different style charge hookups for the lead and lithium packs, and different cables to go to the charger....

Inside the battery box, for lead you either need a jumper connecting the middle two battery terminals (if NOT charging in parallel) OR a lead from each battery terminal to the outside, with appropriate connectors, and a jumper to connect the middle two when using the chair... For Lithium, you need the jumpers that tie the cells together, and the balance wiring....

There are all sorts of possible ways of doing things - you just need to figure out what you want to accomplish and then it becomes fairly straightforward to figure out how to do it....


funkykeyboard wrote:I know you're right mate. I just been searching the forum, and reading it for a couple of hours still haven't got what I need to know. It isn't that there isn't enough information, it just seems to be information overload. What I need is really basic.
So I wire them in series to get 24 V. I go from negative terminal to positive terminal on one wire, then I have two wires one going from the positive terminal one going to the negative that go into a plug which plugs into the R-net controller?
https://imgur.com/a/hCtTJWl
Note that you pictures show 6V batteries - WRONG! We use 12V batteries... (otherwise the drawings are OK)
Back in the day when I was a mechanic, you had a big connector which you clamped with a bolt onto the battery terminal. In your picture it looks like a little connector. Is that it? Do you just put a self tapping screw into the terminal with that connector?
https://imgur.com/a/9LPymnW
Depends on the battery, most use some sort of screw or bolt - size depends on the terminal.
Charging cable? Then do I just connect positive and negative cable to an Anderson, and then connect to the positive and negative "output" terminals on the batteries?
https://imgur.com/a/DcfZ48Z
Yes
what is the name of the connector with the green circle round it, and the one with the brown circle round it?
https://imgur.com/a/bMOFW4h

Green circle looks like a pair of shrink-tubed grey Anderson SB-50's. Not sure about the brown circle, looks like the plug that goes into a P&G power module (I think they use the same one on both R-net and Pilot+)

ex-Gooserider
Thanks for this, at least I have a clue what I am doing now, even if I don't know what I'm doing yet :D :D :D

I've been building this on and off, mostly off, for 7 years. I just want to get the bug up and running now and trying get the end of the summer in it. So I am just going to get the dry cell batteries working and thoroughly roadtest the wheelchair to see if there any other problems.

That itself should be a learning curve. Then I will come back to the lithium battery pack. Thanks again both of you.

Any advice appreciated, Tremulous Tetra. :-)
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 09 Jul 2019, 21:25

Burgerman wrote:You wont find them on eBay. Theres 3 options.

Use a R-Net battery loom from a 120A chair -- ebay, or a chair manufacturer.
Use the correct plugs, available from PGDT -- best option.
Use no plastic plug as such, just use the terminals, which are 9.5mm blade terminals for battery and motor wires. And 6.3mm ones for brakes.


...

Image

Brilliant, I already have some of them.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Scooterman » 10 Jul 2019, 13:38

funkykeyboard wrote:(I want to be able to switch between the 2 in case the airline is not happy about carrying a home-made lithium battery.)


How would they even know?
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 10 Jul 2019, 16:27

Scooterman wrote:
funkykeyboard wrote:(I want to be able to switch between the 2 in case the airline is not happy about carrying a home-made lithium battery.)


How would they even know?

they ask you for the make and model and specifically about the batteries and then they go and check what you have said with the manufacturer before they let you on the aeroplane.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Scooterman » 10 Jul 2019, 16:31

Oh do they , I didn’t realise it was that stringent.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby LROBBINS » 10 Jul 2019, 17:11

We fly a lot and have never been asked questions of that sort. Usually it's an ignorant "are they dry batteries?" and that's it. After having them flip Rachi's chair on its side a couple time to drag it onto a conveyer, I made a folding hinge for the back, added lift handles for the ramp guys, and I tie it all down as a compact assembly that they can't get into - and keep our fingers crossed. All of the airlines/airports have pretty decent rules about how to handle chairs, but their personnel mostly know squat about that.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Irving » 11 Jul 2019, 01:25

LROBBINS wrote:We fly a lot and have never been asked questions of that sort. Usually it's an ignorant "are they dry batteries?" and that's it.

Agreed. I am just back from Vancouver (a gruelling 24h with delays) with BA both ways and was only asked the question once on the way out by check-in staff. I had previously asked BA disability services about Lithium and they were OK with it and referred me to their website (also posted here). When I said they were independently isolated and protected against shorts they were happy.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 16 Jul 2019, 15:18

Image

I just want to doublecheck this wiring loom.

Both the battery charging cable, and the wheelchair controller power cable, connected to the same terminal is correct isn't it?
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 16 Jul 2019, 15:34

I found these cables already made up.

Image

Image

I am presuming these are some kind of safety fuse? Do they go on the connection to the charger, or the power cable to the wheelchair controller?

Image
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 16 Jul 2019, 18:53

It's okay I've managed to work out the answer to all these questions.

For information purposes only, I put the fuses between the controller and the battery terminals. (The opposite way to in the picture.)

Was just panicking before I connected everything. But everything is running fine now.

Thank you Tremulous Tetra
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 20 Jul 2019, 12:31

I can see a logical argument for either case, so can you clarify please my confusion please.

Because we have wired the 2 batteries in series, creating a 24 V power source, when setting up the Hyperion charger do we set the charger 24 V, or do we set the charger to 12 V because each battery is 12 V?

Any advice appreciated, Tremulous Tetra. :-)
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jul 2019, 12:49

That depends...

On how your chair and battery wiring is done. Normally you charge via he control pod which is 24V but limited to low Amps.

On my chairs I can do that. But I can charge at both 12 AND 24 volts, via anderson connection. I choose 12V when driving, and overnight charge as it ensures batteries are charged as 1. And so perfectly balanced up.

I charge at 24V and at high amps during the day to maximise power returned for quickness. Maybe 40 to 80A.

And I charge at 24V if theres only a mobility type charger around. So not often!

THIS https://i.postimg.cc/pLgh37nt/BM-3-wiring-loom.jpg
Shows a 24V charge connection. But it DOES NOT show the cable inking the batteries together?
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby funkykeyboard » 20 Jul 2019, 14:39

Burgerman wrote:That depends...

On how your chair and battery wiring is done. Normally you charge via he control pod which is 24V but limited to low Amps.

On my chairs I can do that. But I can charge at both 12 AND 24 volts, via anderson connection. I choose 12V when driving, and overnight charge as it ensures batteries are charged as 1. And so perfectly balanced up.

I charge at 24V and at high amps during the day to maximise power returned for quickness. Maybe 40 to 80A.

And I charge at 24V if theres only a mobility type charger around. So not often!

THIS https://i.postimg.cc/pLgh37nt/BM-3-wiring-loom.jpg
Shows a 24V charge connection. But it DOES NOT show the cable inking the batteries together?
the 2 batteries are wired like this https://imgur.com/a/DcfZ48Z
I mostly charge just overnight, so I will charge them at 12 V as you suggest. Thank you very much.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Irving » 20 Jul 2019, 17:05

I sense confusion here... Are these 12v or 6v each battery?

If 12v each, You can only charge at 24v when wired in series as shown. To charge at 12v you need to wire in parallel. BM does both because his wiring allows him to swap configurations with different Anderson plug arrangements.
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jul 2019, 17:28

Read this very old page carefully. Last updated over a decade ago. But still valid.

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/faster ... arging.htm
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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby steves1977uk » 20 Jul 2019, 18:12

funkykeyboard wrote:the 2 batteries are wired like this https://imgur.com/a/DcfZ48Z
I mostly charge just overnight, so I will charge them at 12 V as you suggest. Thank you very much.


Won't work like that, and if you try to charge 2x12v batteries wired in series to give you 24v but you charge them at 12v, you'll end up going nowhere with dead batteries! :cussing

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Re: wiring dry cell batteries into BM 2 style battery box

Postby ex-Gooserider » 23 Jul 2019, 04:29

IF I understand your wiring, then you should be charging at 24V....

Best way to tell for certain, is to put a volt meter on the place where you will be plugging in the charger - it should be either 12 or 24V nominal.... Charge at the same nominal voltage....

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