polishing the turd!

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Oct 2019, 00:00

Dont do that. They supply chairs primarily for INDOOR use.
If you say dog walking etc they will point you to the mobility allowance... And not supply.

You WANT them to supply or rather ASSESS for an INDOOR/outdoor chair, even if 4mph. Their remit is INDOOR use, with some outdoor abilities. That may involve seat lift for transfering to different surfaces, and tilt for pressure sore issues, and electric legs because my legs swell likeballoons if I am sat for hours, etc etc. It must fit your needs primarily indoors. Then take the money, and buy whatever you wish in january.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 06 Oct 2019, 16:30

Burgerman wrote:Dont do that. They supply chairs primarily for INDOOR use.
If you say dog walking etc they will point you to the mobility allowance... And not supply.

You WANT them to supply or rather ASSESS for an INDOOR/outdoor chair, even if 4mph. Their remit is INDOOR use, with some outdoor abilities. That may involve seat lift for transfering to different surfaces, and tilt for pressure sore issues, and electric legs because my legs swell likeballoons if I am sat for hours, etc etc. It must fit your needs primarily indoors. Then take the money, and buy whatever you wish in january.


thanks for the tip we shall see when and if they get around to it!
as for the turd well im pleased to say that all being equal when the tyres come it should be a managable 30 inch with the big tyres and about 28 if i can get some normal 3x8 wheels should she need it for any reason indoors but i just cant bring myself to spend £100 on horrid wheels (i couldnt believe in one of your threads that you throw them away!) if you sold them on ebay for half price you would do good as well as a small profit,or send them to me id use them! czy
measured all the doorways in our bungalow and smallest is 33 inch and she never goes in there,good job its wheelchair adapted and extra wide doors :clap:
going to have a go at reprogramming it tonight using the prog our woody sent me atleast then basics should be right and it will steer correctly i cant wait to get it over,like a sentence!peace :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby wheelie junkie » 06 Oct 2019, 17:38

If going to WCS don't forget to factor in postural needs with the assessment. Cushion, backrest, armrests can add a lot as well as any specialist control systems. Those extras can total as much as a base chair.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Oct 2019, 17:51

They will only cover things that you can explain that you need. Tilt if pressure sores are an issue for e.g.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby wheelie junkie » 06 Oct 2019, 18:36

So make sure that you know what you need prior to any meeting. Write it down with reasoning especially if it is borderline on getting a power chair. They'll try and get out of it so more needs will always help.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Oct 2019, 19:21

So for e.g.

I use the power legs because it stops them swelling. As actually evidenced by the assessor swollen...
I was allowed lift, which is not cheap. Because I transfer with a board to various dressing bench, bed, other chairs, sofa all different heights.
I was allowed tilt, and recline, because thats a sure way to move the weight off my sores on my backside, to my back. So every 15 mins to half hour or when time and place allows. Like in the pub.
I was allowed 120A controller and 4 pole because I demonstrated with 2 chairs, that it was actually required to zero turn on a 190KG chair with a 20 stone user. They were bewildered.
This is what their quote was for. Their (my) assessement. That was what thay would pay for. 4mph, and as above no lights.

I was allowed 6mph with lights because I took a cheque, and ordered it that way myself, along with better colour advanced joystick, power centre footplate, black custom paint, single post arms, at MY expense from my supplier. I then did my specific mods here.
I could also have spent this instead on say, another BM2 or maintaining my fleet. My CHOICE!

The devil, and the cost, is in the details. A basic salsa is a couple of grand. Configured with all the important bits its about 10k...

Looks pretty similar at a distance. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818 read carefully. They will only give you the options on a chair that cost more if they have a reason. YOU must know that reason, and how it helps you specifically. Because they dont have a damned clue.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 06 Oct 2019, 22:23

Burgerman wrote:So for e.g.

I use the power legs because it stops them swelling. As actually evidenced by the assessor swollen...
I was allowed lift, which is not cheap. Because I transfer with a board to various dressing bench, bed, other chairs, sofa all different heights.
I was allowed tilt, and recline, because thats a sure way to move the weight off my sores on my backside, to my back. So every 15 mins to half hour or when time and place allows. Like in the pub.
I was allowed 120A controller and 4 pole because I demonstrated with 2 chairs, that it was actually required to zero turn on a 190KG chair with a 20 stone user. They were bewildered.
This is what their quote was for. Their (my) assessement. That was what thay would pay for. 4mph, and as above no lights.

I was allowed 6mph with lights because I took a cheque, and ordered it that way myself, along with better colour advanced joystick, power centre footplate, black custom paint, single post arms, at MY expense from my supplier. I then did my specific mods here.
I could also have spent this instead on say, another BM2 or maintaining my fleet. My CHOICE!

The devil, and the cost, is in the details. A basic salsa is a couple of grand. Configured with all the important bits its about 10k...

Looks pretty similar at a distance. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818 read carefully. They will only give you the options on a chair that cost more if they have a reason. YOU must know that reason, and how it helps you specifically. Because they dont have a damned clue.

i think other than maybe tilt,recline and centre footrest if possible a basic chair for mostly indoors would be fine she has no special needs as such.
does it matter that she has a chair allready that we bought?its not what you would call an indoor chair and def not suitable for both indoor and out as its a muddy,grassy ,dogshity, dogwalking chair and far to dirty to bring into the living room!last hospital visit they evicted her chair made me put it back in the car till she finished i had given it wash as well,they want to see it normally!
i hate seeing her mobility more limited everyday and see long term daily use even indoors shortly as theres no more fixes in the n.h.s so i didnt want the fact she has a chair to compromise anything?would it?peace cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 07 Oct 2019, 06:20

does it matter that she has a chair allready that we bought?

Its non of their business what you buy or bought.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 07 Oct 2019, 12:47

well i spent yesterday fettling the last few quirks out of this turd i made 2 extra mounts for the seat base as it was sort of perched and rocked about like crazy i have seen some cheap builds but they even scrimped the smallest parts and getting all the old fasteners undone was a right pain as the heads of all the bolts just round of and thats after all night soaking in wd40.
the valves came today for the rear wheels and tyres be here wednesday so should be able to get it on the ground if i can find help to lift ot from its stand and see where it sits as i have only been able to guesstimate so far but i have a good eye for such things and reckon it should sit level enough and seat can still be adjusted for comfort but now its not perched at the top of a top heavy chair it should be 100x better,if not its going on ebay quick!peace cheers :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 10 Oct 2019, 12:15

the tyres came today they look strong design and 6 ply but there so mishapen i have just put 2 tubes in the tyre and blown them up,one tube exploded straight away a brand new fresh out the packet one at that! the idea was to put the shape back and keep beads open long enough to blow them up and there now sat on the radiator with heating on for a few hours and then i shall try fit them,one handed tyre fitters are a rare breed now! as i dont have a big compressor i have made a small pressure storage vessel from a jar and some rubber tubing i can them make my 4x4 tyre inflator fill the vessel to high pressure and release into the valve hopefully enough to seat the tyre and yes i know most folk take such items to garage for fitment but after paying for tyres this months funds are gone and im sure with a bit of cunning planning i can maybe just manage,if not im having to wait a month banghead ,i be back if not blown up!peace cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 10 Oct 2019, 12:35

remove valve core. take to any petrol station airline, or garage airline, or tyre shop air line. Inflate to seat. Then install valve core at home and inflate normally afterwards. I have a small compressor at 160psi in my garage for such jobs. Aldi, 15 years ago. 39 quid...

https://www.aldi.co.uk/workzone-2-5-hp- ... 3223920500

Bought it when I went for food. Invaluable. But loud. Not used often. But when you need it you need it.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby woodygb » 10 Oct 2019, 13:03

It has been mentioned before that a ratchet strap around the tread will often spread the beads enough to get good contact with the rim prior to inflating...if you have no ratchet straps then a " Spanish Windlass " should do the job
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Irving » 10 Oct 2019, 15:29

Burgerman wrote:remove valve core. take to any petrol station airline, or garage airline, or tyre shop air line. Inflate to seat. Then install valve core at home and inflate normally afterwards. I have a small compressor at 160psi in my garage for such jobs. Aldi, 15 years ago. 39 quid...

https://www.aldi.co.uk/workzone-2-5-hp- ... 3223920500

Bought it when I went for food. Invaluable. But loud. Not used often. But when you need it you need it.
snap, but £70 in 2007, 220psi on special including vast array of air tools, most never unpacked still. Too noisy for regular use and not really enough cfm for the serious air impact wrench, but did speed up stripping down suspension, cylinder heads, etc. Great for tyres, paddling pools, blowing crap out of things, or the occasional spraying a part in my spray booth (a large cardboard & ply box with a couple of 12" extractors fitted in the top and a couple of 1-bar electric radiators - crude but effective.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 10 Oct 2019, 17:32

hi all well i have managed to fit one tyre to the wheel so far they are a right bugger with one rotten useless hand but getting the buggers to inflate was fun!the pressurised jam jar method scared the shit out the dog though but it works a beauty pumped it up to 50psi and released all in one hit and no exploding jam jars!
the seller sent wrong spacers so cant proper fit wheels but should be here tomorrow and then i can get it on terra firma again and see how it sits,see it amazing what a determined one armed mad hippy can manage with a little diy! :lol: as to wether the turd will fit out the door i dont know yet!!!!!!! :twisted: :dance i do no my good hand hurts now!peace :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 12 Oct 2019, 19:23

hi all well i have done a lot more work now on the turd but progress has been impeded by the wheel rims as in i do not think them suitable for tubeless tyres despite saying they can be used with or without inner tubes on the ad there are a few pics i took of the rims and tyres and problem is the tyres are easy pushed of the rim at the 5 psi operating pressure my puny 8.5 stone had no problem pushing the tyre of the rim now ive double checked the tyre and it def says tubeless as in tl in specs and says max 24 psi to seat bead well i took it to 28 and no pop nothing then let it down to the op 5 psi and a good kick is enough to remove it! i have messaged the seller and see what they say but i sure as hell am not fitting bloody tubes after all this!
anyhow i temporary fitted the wheels and measured and was 33 inches,far to wide so took it all apart again and after some more heavy thinking and a few :joint i got out the crayons and some scribbling later redesigned the motor mounts then cut them out and now have the motors very much more inboard and theres zero wasted space and its down to a comfy 29.5 inches and so far it all seems to fit nicely and is sturdy clean and tidy heres a few pics anyhow see what i mean about the rims? ive not much experience with tubeless diy! :lol:
chair tyre etc 001.JPG

chair tyre etc 002.JPG

chair tyre etc 006.JPG

czy cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby LROBBINS » 12 Oct 2019, 19:39

For several years I successfully used tubeless tires on non-tubeless split rims. How? Hybrid sealant between the wheel halves and inside the rim along the tire bead before seating. Let sit 24hr (actually just a couple hours is probably enough) at high pressure, then bled down. I started with them at 3.5 psi, but later upped that to 5.5 psi. Stayed stuck and didn't leak.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 12 Oct 2019, 19:40

progress has been impeded by the wheel rims as in i do not think them suitable for tubeless tyres despite saying they can be used with or without inner tubes on the ad there are a few pics i took of the rims and tyres and problem is the tyres are easy pushed of the rim at the 5 psi


Obviously. And in the end you will realise, after wasting money, that you need to do it properly. Why do you suppose I keep pointing you to the alloy PROPER TUBELESS hegar rims? Because long after you bodge everything together with crappy parts, you will end up doing it properly ANYWAY!

Been there when racing bike, cars, building chairs, etc etc. Theres only one way to do a job. And thats properly. Buy cheap pay twice.

And a stock chair is around 25 or 26 inches wide. With 2x 3 inch tyres. Add 2 x 6 inch tyres instead and the thing gains 3 inches each side = 6 inches wider which wont work.

Why do you suppose I fitted the narrower low profile tyres to the new salsa? And NARROWED the chair, and turned the battery longways on my BM2 to keep its width to 25 inches? Answers on a post card! :argument

You cant do it cheaply. And if you do, you will wish you did it properly to begin with. banghead
Now you have a pile of parts that are basically unsuitable. That you paid for. At least the rims. So you could bodge it and hope. But those have no tubeless lip. So not secure.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby steves1977uk » 13 Oct 2019, 11:22

I have to agree with BM on this duke, I realise you're limited to what you can spend on this project, but it would be better to save up and buy the proper Hegar wheels and do the job properly. You're just throwing money away trying to do it cheaply and bodging it together.

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby LROBBINS » 13 Oct 2019, 12:45

I too would have bought the Hegar wheels when I was using 6" rim tires, but the Hegar's couldn't be made to fit over the gearcases of the MicroMotor inline motors on the chair. Hence, I had to find the solution of steel split rims and hybrid sealant. I have since switched to 8" rim diameter tires and am using Carlisle one piece steel rims modified to fit over that gearcase that say OK for tubeless - they are, and without the sealant, even though they don't have an obvious tubeless bead.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 13 Oct 2019, 13:05

I might add that narrowing the chair was essential for 6 inch wide tyres.

These are 300mm or 12 inch tiles. Its decieving. But the actual overall width is 26 inches. With the 145 tyres you are using, instead thats 25 inches overall.

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 14 Oct 2019, 20:33

Now you have a pile of parts that are basically unsuitable. That you paid for. At least the rims. So you could bodge it and hope. But those have no tubeless lip. So not secure.

hi bm and all well the turd is all together and on the ground and is now only 28 inches total width,despite balls up with the rims all is sitting perfect alignment fyi i am a fully qualified mechanic and have never dodged anything,modified yes lots and very well there are many hundreds of vehicles i have had a hand in still working many years later.
a good builder does not need a huge budget (just as well that) and can make or adapt most any part precisely and function well anyone who knows me will tell you im able to mend near anything mechanical given the needed tooling,thats where i struggle as my budget is small if we want to eat and keep the car running electric etc tools and such come only christmas and odd times when i need them for a job and have to last years.
admitedly having only 1 good hand has hampered me but i am getting a pillar drill for chrimbo should make neater work,but please do not think im some kind of dodger i never would do anything that could endanger my beloved tina,small budget dont mean bad work. :fencing
i shall get better pics once rain stops and the turd can go outside and then you see work is pukka for its needs,peace :joint cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 14 Oct 2019, 21:12

I mean the rims. They are not suitable for tubeless tyres.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 14 Oct 2019, 21:21

Burgerman wrote:I mean the rims. They are not suitable for tubeless tyres.


i worked that out myself and have messaged the seller and am awaiting "someone more techy" to look at the pics i sent them and decide to refund or replace with correct rims,bloody nuisance as this wet weather now means the gunter meire chair sinks in the deep mud in our parks so just wanted to get it sorted for her so she not miserable stuck indoors and can walk the dogs without fear of getting stuck in the mud!
she is pretty good at getting it out most of the time but forecast is masses of rain and storms czy
i would not let her use it till rims are sorted even if i could afford batterys yet as dogwalk is next to the river and path has adverse camber and is covered in wet moss! :evil: peace :joint
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 15 Oct 2019, 03:53

Obviously replacing the rims w/ proper tubeless designed ones would be better, but if they won't refund / replace, a couple of thoughts...

1. Running higher pressure would obviously make the tires harder to dislodge - of course that has the downside of rougher ride, but...

2. I have NOT tried this, but I have heard of people making imitation 'safety lips' by welding narrow strips of metal to the inside of the rim. They don't necessarily need to totally go around the rim if there are enough pieces to act as stoppers... Might not be cost effective if you had to pay for it, but if you can get it done free or just a few beer tokens, might be worth a try

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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby farmer » 16 Oct 2019, 01:42

years ago they made a brush on glue you could brush around the bead worked good sometimes to good and tough to remove tire later ,
don,t remember the name but if all else fails might be worth a search
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Oct 2019, 10:14

When racing drag bikes year ago the wheel would sometimes spin inside the tyre (5 or 6 hundred horsepower) and rip up the rubber bead destroying the tyre. So I would degrease and dry the rim before fitting any new tyre. And use evo stick contact adhesive as the tyre fitting lube on the bead area. Once fitted, any excess visible is removed with a rag and some petrol. No more problem. And as a plus, you get high! :joint

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EVO-STIK-IMP ... 100623.m-1

Tyre machine removes tyre no prob. Petrol cleans old glue off.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby wheelie junkie » 16 Oct 2019, 17:15

Mountain bike riders use gorilla tape to cover spoke holes and help seat a tubeless tyre by running it into the bead, usually called ghetto tubeless.

Track riders have tubular tyres which don't have a bead and the centre section of the tyre is glued to a bead less rim with tub glue or tub tape.Tub glue should work like evostick but is probably more expensive.
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 16 Oct 2019, 20:37

thanks all for the replies i have eventualy gotten a full refund for the wheel rims but not from the seller as they are convinced all customers are stupid and even photographic evidence leaves them saying the tyre doesnt stay on rim because it is powder coated and not designed to be painted!wtf theres a near seethrough coat of cheap cellulose paint and even then only on the outside inside is seethrough! so after being ignored and insulted i complained direct to ebay and they have refunded me,so folks name and shame i say petrolscooter.com on ebay best avoided and do not go by there images as there not what you get.
still i have a free pair of wheels and screwfix round the corner so a tube of gorilla glue and the wheels be useable.
went and bought new drillbits and some kurust as i swear by the stuff not for curing rust cos thats impossible but for preventing it in vulnerable places its worth every penny,i stopped short of hammerite crinkle finish this time!
i do wish the hegar wheels was cheaper be less work for me but better these wheels than none at all!peace :joint cheers
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby Burgerman » 16 Oct 2019, 23:25

Its easier, and more reliable and just better to do it right... And after you have thrown hours, money, and all the rest you will eventually realise that the puncture proof tubeless tyres and the hegar rims were the only sensible option! :silent:
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Re: polishing the turd!

Postby duke1 » 20 Oct 2019, 17:47

Burgerman wrote:Its easier, and more reliable and just better to do it right... And after you have thrown hours, money, and all the rest you will eventually realise that the puncture proof tubeless tyres and the hegar rims were the only sensible option! :silent:

hi bm it is what we can afford to do,other choice would be not doing it at all so i do the best i can with the little ive got and every single part i have used has been redesigned or repurposed from my "useful one day box" i did some research re using the tubeless tyre on these rims and have ordered continental tyre adhesive which is assured to keep the tyre secure until removed with a machine the tyres have remained at the 5psi for 2 weeks or so im happy they seal ok so once secured should be fine.
i took a few better pics today and you can see what a very tight and precise fit the bigger 4 pole motors are on the remodeled motor mounts i found after removing all the unused brackets and mounting holes i gained an extra 6mm each side enabling the bigger motors orientation to be changed a few degrees and fit with a fag paper gap from the swingarm mounts and 2.5 mm gap between tyres and motor bodies so happy with that and width of 28.5 inches total is better than i thought possible without even more major work.
still got to save for batteries and wondered if @burgerman could tell me if higher ah lead would fit the space these come out of,theres scope for taller to fit a good couple of inches but no wiggle room elsewhere this is original and knackered ones! followed by pics,3 at a time sucks! :)
td ap og chair 041.JPG
chair td og etc 20 10 19 001.JPG

chair td og etc 20 10 19 002.JPG
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