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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Sep 2019, 15:49

Try reading this https://www.howtogeek.com/254830/why-yo ... y-rotated/ it explains all you need to know about image rotation. The issue isn't Apple it is how cameras and software are evolving for users who want simplicty
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2019, 15:51

I know how it works. Thats why I turn it OFF on all my pro camera gear.
It puts the image file the same way around on the memory stick regardless of correct orientation, and adds a little not to tell software to rotate it. Which many things dont use.

It also fails to mention that apple mark the images INCORRECTLY for several software versions. So even if your browser understands this, it still displays incorrectly...
The APPLE IPHONE problem is an extra one... On top of the stpidity of saving the image the wrong way up. https://www.geek.com/apple/why-iphone-p ... t-1602306/

The issue isn't Apple it is how cameras and software are evolving for users who want simplicty

Yes it is. Its saving the files incorrectly. And now cameras HAVE a gravity sensor, there is no need to save the image the wrong way around to begin with. If I strip all the exif data from my 45k photos they will all display the correct way up, because the camera SAVED them correctly on the card.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Sep 2019, 16:12

It just reinforces that a phone is not a substitute for a camera, it is just a quick and handy way to take a snap. Dumbed down so anyone can use it hence software that recognises it. Strip the exif meta data when exporting and you won't have a problem no matter where you upload to.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby steves1977uk » 22 Sep 2019, 16:16

Scooterman wrote:Steve - Does this photo have any metadata in it?


Your first image doesn't have any EXIF data, but the second one does as shown below...

Filename - IMG_3355.jpg
Make - Apple
Model - iPhone SE
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
Software - 12.4.1
DateTime - 2019:09:22 12:23:36
ExifOffset - 182
ExposureTime - 1/33 seconds
FNumber - 2.20
ExposureProgram - Normal program
ISOSpeedRatings - 200
ExifVersion - 0221
DateTimeOriginal - 2019:09:22 12:23:36
DateTimeDigitized - 2019:09:22 12:23:36
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/33 seconds
ApertureValue - F 2.20
BrightnessValue - 2.15
ExposureBiasValue - 0
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
Flash - Flash not fired, auto mode
FocalLength - 4.15 mm
SubsecTimeOriginal - 742
SubsecTimeDigitized - 742
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 320
ExifImageHeight - 240
SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor
SceneType - Other
ExposureMode - Auto
White Balance - Auto
FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 29 mm
SceneCaptureType - Standard
Lens Info - 4.15 4.15 2.20 2.20
Lens Make - Apple
Lens Model - iPhone SE back camera 4.15mm f/2.2

Maker Note (Vendor): -


It seems to me it's a huge privacy flaw especially when Apple "claims" to protect its users privacy. :fart

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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2019, 16:20

It just reinforces that a phone is not a substitute for a camera, it is just a quick and handy way to take a snap. Dumbed down so anyone can use it hence software that recognises it. Strip the exif meta data when exporting and you won't have a problem no matter where you upload to.


Yes you will. And its not just phones. Apple introduces an ADDITIONAL error as it saves the data file INCORRECTLY.

Apple cameras save the file on the memory stick frequently the wrong way around. You take a portrait shot, it saves a landscape image. Then RELIES on the exif data to correct it. So removing the data now results in an iage displayed as saved, incorrectly. And the same if the software or browser ignores the data. wWhat it SHOULD do is what my nikons do. Use the gravity sensor, and save the file the correct way around with the narrow side either top or side. Then exif, or no exif, they display correctly. But apple is stupid.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Sep 2019, 16:21

steves1977uk wrote:It seems to me it's a huge privacy flaw especially when Apple "claims" to protect its users privacy. :fart

Steve


It just shows not to upload from the phone, use decent software like Lightroom that puts you in control.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby steves1977uk » 22 Sep 2019, 16:24

And to compare an image taken with a Lumia phone...

Filename - WP_20190821_15_23_34_Pro.jpg
Make - Microsoft
Model - Lumia 650
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
YCbCrPositioning - Centered
ExifOffset - 2230
ExposureTime - 1/50 seconds
FNumber - 2.20
ISOSpeedRatings - 400
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2019:08:21 15:23:35
DateTimeDigitized - 2019:08:21 15:23:35
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/50 seconds
ApertureValue - F 2.20
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
MeteringMode - Average
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Not fired
FocalLength - 0.00 mm
SubsecTimeOriginal - 360
SubsecTimeDigitized - 360
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 3264
ExifImageHeight - 1840
InteroperabilityOffset - 53880
ExposureMode - Auto
White Balance - Auto
DigitalZoomRatio - 0.00 x
FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 0 mm
SceneCaptureType - Standard

GPS information: -

Maker Note (Vendor): -


It doesn't store the GPS location info in the image, yet GPS is enabled for maps to work.

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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Sep 2019, 16:27

Burgerman wrote:
It just reinforces that a phone is not a substitute for a camera, it is just a quick and handy way to take a snap. Dumbed down so anyone can use it hence software that recognises it. Strip the exif meta data when exporting and you won't have a problem no matter where you upload to.


Yes you will. And its not just phones. Apple introduces an ADDITIONAL error as it saves the data file INCORRECTLY.

Apple cameras save the file on the memory stick frequently the wrong way around. You take a portrait shot, it saves a landscape image. Then RELIES on the exif data to correct it. So removing the data now results in an iage displayed as saved, incorrectly. And the same if the software or browser ignores the data. wWhat it SHOULD do is what my nikons do. Use the gravity sensor, and save the file the correct way around with the narrow side either top or side. Then exif, or no exif, they display correctly. But apple is stupid.


You remove the exif data after the image has been correctly rotated in software, a phone isn't a decent image editor do it properly on a computer with decent software, export it with no meta data then there is nothing for a browser or anything else to try and use. Lightroom has an export option that removes everything.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2019, 16:31

With my Nikon cameras I get to decide what goes into the exif file. Inc copyright info, etc.

The real problem here is that theres no need to save an image the wrong way around in the first place, and so no need to mark it to be rotated by software. Because to add the data to the exif, the camera MUST already know the correct orientation. So why save it the wrong way up? :clap

And so never any errors. But Apple does things differently... Their way. Doesent matter that it makes no sense, or that it causes problems, or that they even mark them incorrectly too. All non configurable nonsense nobody wanted. My android phone, my nikon cameras, saves the images the right way around, so no exif rotate data is required. They then always display correctly regardless.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Sep 2019, 16:49

If you are using a pro level Nikon, Canon, Sony you will be using Lightroom or equivalent software which will allow you to choose metadata for the export as you are unlikely to share an unedited image. I always kept copyright data in any image.

Iphone works best when used with a Mac, photos app if you want simple, Lightroom if you know what you are doing. A phone isn't an image editor and unless you aren't bothered or can take amazing shots you will need to edit. Personally I have a compact Sony RX100 and always shoot raw if I want anything of reasonable quality. A phone takes a snap.

I was out today with a friend who pulled out a Yashica Mat 1240 and asked my support worker to take a shot, she had never used a film camera, no problem with auto rotate :)
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Seajays » 22 Sep 2019, 17:14

Thanks for all the info Guy's ,but away too technical for me.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2019, 17:57

I still mess with slide film now and again.

I was out today with a friend who pulled out a Yashica Mat 1240 and asked my support worker to take a shot, she had never used a film camera, no problem with auto rotate


Theres absolutely zero need for any camera including a phone, to use the exif file to try and tell future software/browser that the image is saved incorrectly. If apple were to simply save the picture the way they SAY IT SHOULD then all the rotation data is not required, cannot be ignored, and so on. The problem is an apple one. Not a camera one. On top of which they add INCORRECT auto rotate data sometimes as well... Apple, junk.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Sep 2019, 18:25

The friend I was with had just been shooting with a glass plate camera, so much definition in the shot even looking at a digital photo of the images.

Apple want to make it point and shoot where the moment is captured without thought or knowledge of a process, their photos app is all about memories, time, location and people/faces which I get but that doesn't fit how everyone uses a camera.Facebook/Instagram have become the medium of choice for the majority and making it simple to post without any technical knowledge the goal for the likes of Apple, dumbing down, sorry pre-empting that doesn't always work.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2019, 18:30

Apple want to make it point and shoot where the moment is captured without thought or knowledge of a process, their photos app is all about memories, time, location and people/faces which I get but that doesn't fit how everyone uses a camera.Facebook/Instagram have become the medium of choice for the majority and making it simple to post without any technical knowledge the goal for the likes of Apple, dumbing down, sorry pre-empting that doesn't always work.


But thats the problem. It does the exact OPPOSITE!!!
If they did it the same way other phones, other camera inc point and shoots, did, and simply saved the image on the card the correct way up, as shot then its simple for EVERYONE, inc all you said above. It always works, in every circustance. But they dont, being apple, they complicate it for reasons only apple couLd ever explain, and save the image 90 degrees wrongly. With all the sideways and upside down shared images they send to their relatives etc being the result.

Apple, have made it so you MUST check everything, and/or change and correct or re-save it the right way up, before sharing! That is retarded. My D810 does not need all that bullshit, because it saves the images the right way up to start with, like my android phone (no longer used) and every other non apple device.

It isnt making anything simpler. Its just making it more complicated and requiring extra info to try and make the recipient fix its error. And after saving the image the RIGHT way, it sometimes adds a tag that is incorrect to boot!

Save the image the right way up, and no tag is needed even if included. It ALWAYS works correctly. But apple. :lol:
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Sep 2019, 18:55

Your Nikon doesn't need to save rotation data as you would correct it in software if it is wrong. A phone can be held in any orientation so they try and add the correction tag which the vast majority of software now uses and will recognise probably because it has to to fix Apple's rotation tag, rightly/wrongly doesn't matter it is there and software makers use it.

I've never had a problem, not once even on phone uploads but I use only 2 orientations and up to date software, coincidence? Probably not. I'd rather they did something about video in portrait that really winds me up, auto rotate to landscape would be default on every phone banghead
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2019, 19:58

Your Nikon doesn't need to save rotation data as you would correct it in software if it is wrong.

ITS NEVER WRONG!!!
NO camera needs to save rotation data unless it is saved the image incorrectly when shot. Because the image top edge should be read first when drawing the image on a screen. If it needs rotating, the camera wrote the file in the wrong orientation. Only apple do that.

If I shoot portrait mode, the camera knows where the ground is. And therefore which way up the camera is. As is the case of all digital cameras for decades. So when I shoot. It writes the data in horizontal lines of 1s and 0s starting at the top of the image. Line after line. The short edge first if your cam is at greater than 45 degrees. This is always the convention of a gif, jpg, etc. So when displayed the data is read from the file the same way. X pixels long then line 2.

If I shoot in landscape, it writes the first line of the sky, the long edge first. To the xxxxx.jpg or xxxxxx.raw etc. And when displayed this is the first line displayed on screen (the top when shot) the rest go below. Line after line. NO rotation data is needed or wanted, although MAY still be included in the exif data. It SHOULD always be the same as the file that was written to the card.

A phone can be held in any orientation so they try and add the correction tag

ALL cameras go in any orientation! Not only apple phones.
The camera KNOWS which is the top, and also what angle your camera is at. Once the shot is taken, it should write the data to the card either long edge first, or short edge first, whichever is less than 45 degrees from the top horizon according to gravity... Then NO TAG IS EVER REQUIRED. But apple are "different". They sometimes save the file the wrong way around. And then rely on that exif data to fix it when displayed. Which may or may not work, depending on where or what desplays it. As we see all over. And worse, sometimes they also add the WRONG exif data, that makes a file that IS correctly written, turn... Had they written the file the correct way around then EVERYTHING would display it as it was intended.

Non of this has anything at all to do with the way you use it or where you send it to.Its simply an Apple bug.


I've never had a problem, not once even on phone uploads but I use only 2 orientations and up to date software, coincidence? Probably not. I'd rather they did something about video in portrait that really winds me up, auto rotate to landscape would be default on every phone banghead


Thats a different problem.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2019, 20:09

Image data on card, in the xxxxx.jpg should be written:

All zeros as a simplistic diagram. Its written as a bitmap. 3 figures (colour data) for every pixel. In horizontal lines.

Line of pixels one. Top of image. THIS is how it is written to the card if the top is LANDSCAPE and less than 45 degrees from level.

LANDSCAPE
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 LINE 1 end - top sky etc
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 LINE 2 Etc
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 BOTTOM OF IMAGE FILE, LAST DATA LINE.

Line of pixels one. Top of image. THIS is how it is written to the card if the top is PORTRAIT and less than 45 degrees from level.

PORTRAIT
000000000000000000000000000 LINE 1 TOP, SKY Etc.
000000000000000000000000000 LINE 2 Etc...
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000
000000000000000000000000000 END, MANY MORE SHORTER LINES.

This is what every camera does. But apple doesent always bother. They rely on a rotate tag... So you can get 90 or 180 degree images dispayed... And they even write it wrong too on occasion. So it can be wrong, ignored, removed when emailing or whatever and screw up!
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Scooterman » 23 Sep 2019, 11:06

steves1977uk wrote:
Scooterman wrote:Steve - Does this photo have any metadata in it?


Your first image doesn't have any EXIF data, but the second one does as shown below...


Steve

This is well worth watching Steve (and anyone else). The guy gets busted from the Metadata on his photos, and other evidence as well. I watched it a year or two ago but the bit about the photo data stuck in my mind.


youtu.be/HqGEiWds4oI
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby steves1977uk » 23 Sep 2019, 14:11

I just watch that SM, the Surgeon thought he could outsmart the Police but got 8 years in the big house. :lol: Serve him right! :thumbup:

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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Scooterman » 23 Sep 2019, 14:41

steves1977uk wrote:I just watch that SM, the Surgeon thought he could outsmart the Police but got 8 years in the big house. :lol: Serve him right! :thumbup:

Steve

I thought that too, he was cocky bastard!!! :lol:
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 23 Sep 2019, 17:54

It doesn't really matter what is right or wrong, new software corrects it. Apple are just trying to make it work for them and the way they think makes it simpler for viewers. And within the phones processing capabilities. They are behind some phone makers camera technology and I think always will be. I think that they now have a way of separating out selfies based upon the front facing camera exif tag, another feature I'll probably never use. Luckily photos app is a database and stores things like tagged faces in it rather than store in EXIF but some users complain that it doesn't store in EXIF, privacy concerns? Obviously not. You can't please all of the people all of the time
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2019, 19:05

It doesn't really matter what is right or wrong, new software corrects it.

Yes it does matter. And no, new software DOES NOT correct it if apple writes the data wrong, and it does. Thats why the image above was sideways.

Apple are just trying to make it work for them and the way they think makes it simpler for viewers.

No. They are making a simple thing complicated. Harder for viewers because it screws up. And also getting it wrong! And its not needed by anyone ever if they just write the image to the file the way up that their metadata says it was meant to be! Like every other sane camera, phone, and even web cams can do.

And within the phones processing capabilities. They are behind some phone makers camera technology and I think always will be.

They appear to be behind a 6 quid webcam. Because I have one that does all this properly. And every other cheap nasty disposable camera out there. This isnt rocket science, its BASIC STUFF. It has nothing to do with processing power of which the phone has plenty. They KNOW which way its meant to be, or they wouldnt be able to add the correct orientation as a tag. So why write the image to the file the wrong way up? Its RETARDED. And its typical apple

I think that they now have a way of separating out selfies based upon the front facing camera exif tag, another feature I'll probably never use. Luckily photos app is a database and stores things like tagged faces in it rather than store in EXIF but some users complain that it doesn't store in EXIF, privacy concerns? Obviously not. You can't please all of the people all of the time

All completely irrelivant to what we are talking about. They can ALWAYS write the image to the file the RIGHT WAY UP. That always pleases everyone all of the time with selfies or ANY OTHER type of photography with front, rear, or even 360 degree cameras...
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby steves1977uk » 24 Sep 2019, 00:10

https://iphonephotographyschool.com/iph ... side-down/ Apparently this bug has existed for years! But Apple are just ignoring it, which reminds me why I'll never buy an Apple product, especially when other phones/cameras saves the image the correct way! :roll:

Also sorry BM for taking this thread off-topic. :oops:

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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2019, 00:19

Your iPhone doesn’t convert any images to the correct orientation because that would keep it busy for a few seconds. Instead it simply saves all photos as they were recorded and adds information about their correct orientation to EXIF tags.

It doesent keep any decent camera busy at all as it just caches the image until its figured out which is the right way up, then writes the file CORRECTLY. Meanwhile all android, windows, and every other bit of software and camera stores the photo the right way up... No additional data needed.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby ex-Gooserider » 24 Sep 2019, 03:50

The board I was given when I 'graduated' from rehab back in 2010 was a 36" long "Therafin" brand - nice board made w/ very thin plywood with a LOT of plies in it. The edges and corners were rounded but not tapered, and it has a very slick finish....

I found it a bit long for my usual bed <-> chair transfers so I got an 'Ultra-Slick' board that is coated w/ some sort of plastic (not PTFE) that is claimed to be extra slippery, but I find it really only slides easily if there is cloth between me and the board.... No problem when I'm dressed obviously. I sleep on a disposable 'chuck' so I just keep that under me when transferring to the shower chair getting up in the morning, and then tuck my terrycloth bath towel around the board after showering when I'm transferring back into bed in order to get dressed...

I only use a slide board when the transfer either involves a significant height difference, one surface is 'squishy' or there is a big gap between the surfaces... I use a "Select Comfort" air mattress that is squishy the way a Roho is so I need the extra support of the 'butt bridge'... Otherwise I almost never use a board.

All my boards have handle holes, and I've never found them to be a problem as long as they are nicely rounded, and I use them when positioning the board and / or as anchor points for my hands when transferring - I would not want a board that did NOT have handles....

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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby funkykeyboard » 24 Sep 2019, 13:22

Sorry to but in late, and if anybody has already mentioned this, but have you thought of a slide sheet. Costs very little, and would be that slippy it might even be too dangerous for you. Also, what about a monkey pole?

Best wishes, Tremulous Tetra. :-)
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 25 Sep 2019, 14:15

Well, after 10 weeks up and about and thinking that new Roho was the answer it is back. DN's think that it is moisture related so alternating cushion has been bought, now to get this healed...
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 25 Sep 2019, 14:23

Burgerman wrote:
Your iPhone doesn’t convert any images to the correct orientation because that would keep it busy for a few seconds. Instead it simply saves all photos as they were recorded and adds information about their correct orientation to EXIF tags.

It doesent keep any decent camera busy at all as it just caches the image until its figured out which is the right way up, then writes the file CORRECTLY. Meanwhile all android, windows, and every other bit of software and camera stores the photo the right way up... No additional data needed.


Right/wrong, the company that have sold hundreds of millions of phones, redefined the cell phone market and made billions giving users what they want. I guess right depends upon what you use to determine it. I can understand why they go their own way just wish I had bought shares years ago.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby Burgerman » 25 Sep 2019, 20:17

Right/wrong,

Its quite obviously wrong!

Would you store buckets of glue or paint sideways, or worse ship them that way, with a note to say OPEN THE OTHER WAY UP? Because not everybody might read that... And worse, that note is often INCORRECT TOO!

You can spin it anyway you want. But its plain stupid.
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Re: Back to pressure sores...

Postby wheelie junkie » 26 Sep 2019, 18:50

Burgerman wrote:
You can spin it anyway you want. But its plain stupid.


Unless you are an Apple shareholder or find the interface works for you, or just like owning an iphone. You live in a geek world, unlikely to understand why people do things that don't confirm to your right. Life is a lot more than that, thankfully so.
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