Permobile F3 possible generic R-net conversion

[Arima]

Got the shrouds off and managed some pictures. Recommendations on some basic wiring diagram software...freeware of course?

[Arima]

Only 3 at a time I guess.

[Arima]

Last 2

[Burgerman]

You dont need one.
A powerchair is dead simple if you understand what does what. Unless you buy permobil.

But its stupid to replace all or any of it if its working or under warranty.
If its not, then you may only need to swap the defective part. Or reprogram it or whatever.

The following is a wiring diagram for the r-net system... You may spot that its a bit simple.

It consists of a couple of bus cables, and 3 modules.
1. joystick, any will be fine. The advanced colour one is best as below.
2. power module, any will work. Theres various output ones like 70, 90, and 120A versions. The programming is basically the same. The 120A one is best suited to any heavy chair or faster chair though.
3. Theres a seating module.

If we ignore the 3 plugs that go to the BATTERY, and to each MOTOR then everything you need to connect is already connected to make a chair drive in this image...
You also DO NOT NEED the square box with the R-net logo, that is a programming donge temporarily connected...
So only the JOYSTICK and the POWER MODULE connected by a single buss cable is required to drive any powerchair! + the 3 plugs that go to the BATTERY, and to each MOTOR. Thats it. Your chair works. But the seat wont move.

[Burgerman]

So how to make seats and lights work?

You add an ISM.
Thats a 'inteligent seating module'. The ones on ebay are usually ISM6 so they can do 6 channels (6 different seating actuators) and lights and indicators.

Heres one added to the other two parts. This one already has a bunch of wires connected. Most dont. You just buy the bare module on ebay.
The dongle for programming is disconnected and top left.

[Burgerman]

Now presumably you know how to connect the 2 motors. Each has a plug in connector already. With its 4 pins (2 big, and 2 small for the brake) all built in. So thats plug and play. The battery is similar, just two thick wires that go to the battery...

That just leaves the ISM to connect to your actuators, and to the lights if you have any.

And those are all easy. Each is numbered. Each actuator has 2 wires. Each numbered socket is programmable, and works directly from the joystick. And you are done.

Details on connection in the r-net tech file. But you wont need it.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/program ... 981-14.pdf

[Burgerman]

If your chair has position sensors on its actuators then you need a different ISM and more connections. It may have. But:
You can get most of the functionality if you ignore that and treat them as simple 2 wire motor actuators.

Or you can spend a lot of time figuring out how to program the advanced ISM and connecting a few extra wires. Also those are expensive and hard to find. Most chairs dont need them. Some do. Some standers for e.g.

MOST of the wires and stuff on your chair looks 100x more complicated than it is. Much of it may not even be needed and is there because of permobils own seating system electronics. And those are typicaly the bit that fails...

If you plan on replacing that then its easier to remove everything, and then start from scratch so you know what goes where and why.

[Arima]

As you say...people should understand (at least to the best of thier abilitys) and know how things work. Nothing is actually going to happen on this until I have a better picture in my mind how it's put together and connected. I might even label everything!

[Arima]

Oh and thank you for the wiring diagram!

[ex-Gooserider]

I find that a lot of the time wiring diagrams are almost as easy to draw on graph paper w/ pens / pencils of your choice.... (Last I checked those were still open source if not free (atoms cost money....))

If you really do want a computer program, I like KiCAD for electronics and board layout type projects, but it doesn't work really well for things like automobile or chair schematics as your choices for wire colors and such are limited....

I haven't tried using it for the purpose, and you'd need to make your own 'module symbols' but I've heard many people say that the "Fritzing" program that is popular with folks that do breadboard projects also works well for schematics....

ex-Gooserider

[Arima]

How do people work on a chair without getting down on the ground? Got myself a pressure sore from binge reading after finding this forum last month. Harbor freight has a lift cart that lowers to 9" i think.

[Burgerman]

I use a block and tackle. Mostly. The pillows were "just in case" by my female carer! A lot of good they would do...

This is able to lift a ton. Safely. Theres a M12 bolt into an RSJ in my ceiling. Put there for this purpose. The chair ca be lifted higher, or rotated with one hand.

[Irving]

re: Lifting

I use my ceiling hoist (SWL 340kg) to lift chair onto Black & Decker workbench on low (kneeling) height which makes it just the right height to work on.

[Arima]

You guys are setup for some serious lifting! I'd never get away with a ceiling hoist in my apt. This is the best idea I've seen so far.
https://www.harborfreight.com/500-lb-ca ... 61405.html

Slide a tire tube under the Pulse 6 chair base but it blew out at 12 psi.

Is that the new quickie hanging in the sling Burgerman?

[Burgerman]

No its a invacare brushless storm 4

[Burgerman]

more

[Arima]

Nice...silver doesn't show dust like black does.

[ex-Gooserider]

I purchased a "Hi-Lift Motorcycle Lift" from Harbor Fright and did some serious hacking on it.... I added some spacers to the ground legs so they would fit on the outside of most chairs. I then did some serious changes to the lift forks to make them adjustable in width.... There is a thread on here somewhere w/ photos and more detailed descriptions.

I can pick up any chair w/ a solid frame on the bottom to about desk height.... Downside that I didn't realize is that some chairs (like my Invacare H-frame project chair) have a frame that sits up higher with the battery boxes hanging down below, and this doesn't work quite as well...

Of course if I run into a real issue I can always use the Asylum gantry lift....

ex-Gooserider

[Arima]

I purchased a "Hi-Lift Motorcycle Lift" from Harbor Fright and did some serious hacking on it.... I added some spacers to the ground legs so they would fit on the outside of most chairs. I then did some serious changes to the lift forks to make them adjustable in width.... There is a thread on here somewhere w/ photos and more detailed descriptions.

Have not been able to find the thread on modifying the motorcycle lift:(

Did find an R-net LED joystick and a ISM6 seating module. Wonder if my old Permobile PM120 will work with these?

[flagman1776]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3396&p=43864&hilit=motorcycle+lift#p43864

[Arima]

@flagman, I like the forks getting down low to scoop up the chair. Thxs

[Burgerman]

Did find an R-net LED joystick and a ISM6 seating module. Wonder if my old Permobile PM120 will work with these?

Yes. ALL r-net components work together. May need programming correctly to do as you want. Easy enough.

I HAVE some permobil 120 modules.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8857

They are just the same as sunrise, any other chair. All work together. I have 3 full sets now cheap! See above.

[Arima]

Yes I had been thru that thread once before. Probably what made me start buying stuff. Need to find where I put that pm. Thinking I should be able to connect the new/used joystick and pm and it should boot up?

[Burgerman]

You can connect ANY power module, and joystick, and it will boot up if supplied with 24V to the centre connectors. It will give as error if it doesent see motors or brake. Thats easy enough, it cant tell the difference between resistance or motors. Or brakes. I keep some old motors on the shelf though. Thats all thats needed to drive the chair. See pics higher up page.

Even with error, it can be programmed. Or read the program from your configured chair with the right seating settings etc and send it to the new setup/ chair. If its a bigger amp controller you may need to go to motor section and increase amps. So 100A and 20A boost on the 120A module.

Also if you are using a chair with many seating options and lights you may also need a ism6 or the 8 channel one that can do some fancy permobil type stuff... (the cxsm8 as it provides microprocessor control for complex seating needs and actuator feedback for position). Or on a front drive chair a stability accelerometer or gyro module in a frankly futile attempt to get a front drive chair to beat physics and drive like a mid/rear drive... As long as you drive it withstock delayed action turn accelerations and drive like my gran it works... Its obvious it cant do it once programmed properly.

[Arima]

Even with error, it can be programmed. Or read the program from your configured chair with the right seating settings etc and send it to the new setup/ chair. If its a bigger amp controller you may need to go to motor section and increase amps. So 100A and 20A boost on the 120A module.

That is great to hear! Would be nice to have a handle on the programming before trying to update my daily driver. Looked for 3 days for that power module I thought I had and still not finding it. Back to ebay to find a good deal on one. Thxs.

[Arima]

Found a powermodule and it did boot with error. Flashing charge indicator on the LED model joystick.

On the pc the "Controller" pull down menu only allowed "Unlock" to be selected. No luck...still not able to "read from controller". Cycled the joystick thru lock and unlock. Rebooted the application and success.

What do you call the settings file? The extension .R-net is kinda confusing lol...it isn't a profile. Anyway mine is blank...the PM looks new.
Help does not work...I think you guys posted a fix for that somewhere.
I want to try programming using a 18volt (power tool) battery...anyone see any problems with that idea?

Thxs

[Burgerman]

.r-net IS a profile.

You will likely not be able to use 18V as thats too low. Unless very lucky. It might work...

Flashing error codes because you dont have motors, brakes connected? Or have some inhibit like the charger one set reversed for on board charging or something.

Also, define blank?

[Arima]

I'll give 18v a try another day.

Yes error because I only have joystick and PM.

[Arima]

Guess I can't edit my previous post. Here is updated text to go with the image.

I'll give 18v a try another day.

Yes error because I only have joystick and PM. I need to take back the blank profile...it does have some speed settings so it's not blank. It looks that way to a new user lol. Until you drill down the menus and look closer. So within the top level .r-net profile I can have as many as 8 sub profiles?

My JSM-LED does not have a profile button...only battery meter and speed(?) indicator. Unless the speed indicator is the profile. Bare with me while I learn lol.

[johnbae1980]

Guess I can't edit my previous post. Here is updated text to go with the image.

I'll give 18v a try another day.

Yes error because I only have joystick and PM. I need to take back the blank profile...it does have some speed settings so it's not blank. It looks that way to a new user lol. Until you drill down the menus and look closer. So within the top level .r-net profile I can have as many as 8 sub profiles?

My JSM-LED does not have a profile button...only battery meter and speed(?) indicator. Unless the speed indicator is the profile. Bare with me while I learn lol.

I can send you OEM r-net file for F3. but I am not sure whether it is works on 18V or not. let me know if u need the file.