FWD vs MWD vs RWD - smoothest ride?

[horsound]

Hi everyone,

I've been using a Invacare Bora electric wheelchair for the past 10 years, but I'm now searching for a more comfortable powered wheelchair, and I'm trying to educate myself on this subject. In particular, I'm trying to find the type of chair that allows the smoothest ride. I need to use the wheelchair indoor and outdoor, and the sidewalks and roads where I live are quite bumpy, and unfortunately I'm very sensible to bumps due to weak back and neck muscles.

I know each wheelchair model is different, but at least generally speaking is there a specific chair type that is clearly more comfortable? I guess my question is should I choose a front-wheel, mid-wheel, or rear-wheel powered wheelchair? Which one is the smoothest when going over an obstacle?

I've been reading a lot of articles, and also Burgerman's advice here (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5624), besides many other threads, and initially I was leaning towards mid wheel drive, due to seeing some YouTube videos claiming those chairs were extremely comfortable, but I think the general consensus here is they aren't. Which makes sense, since most (all?) don't have suspension on the middle wheel.

I don't have full control regarding which chair to choose, that's mostly dependent of my doctor and available budget, but I'm hoping to at least try to push him in the right direction. There are only a few brands available in my country - Invacare, Permobil, and Sunrise Quickie - I think the main candidates are the Invacare Storm 4, the Permobil F5, and the Quickie Q700 or Q500 - and hopefully when the time comes I'll be able to know very well all the possibilities and steer the doctor into the right chair.

I was surprised by the negativity here towards Permobil, I thought it was considered a very good brand (and I have to admit I absolutely love their design, I think their chairs are beautiful, in particular the F5), but in the end of the day the most important to me is comfort. Well, I also need 50° tilt, and ideally also 5 or 6mph speed, and that the chair isn't very wide, but ride comfort is really the most important factor.

Thanks in advance for all comments and suggestions. I'm very glad to have found this forum, it seems many people here have a huge amount of knowledge, and even make significant changes to their wheelchairs (which I have to confess never even crossed my mind). Unfortunately I can't go that way, I need my next chair to be as good as possible without custom changes, but my geek side is loving to see what's possible.

[shirley_hkg]

Storm 4, but Xplore only , because it has front arm suspension .

Then change to pneumatic tyres .

[steves1977uk]

Avoid anything Invacare these days, the Storm 4 has major issues if you're a heavy user and their lower powered chairs are virtually un-programmable which means they'll never steer correctly. Permobil gets negativity here because of their overcomplicated design which causes a lot of unneccessary problems which could've been avoided, but can be programmed to steer correctly due to the R-net control system.

Sunrise Medical powerchairs are the mostly recommended on here, but need a few mods as shown here... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

Steve

[Burgerman]

Generalisations.

1. Anything with small caster wheels (less than 9 or 10 inches) will cause the teeth to be rattled about on what passes for pavements.
2. Anything with less than grp24 (70 to 80Ah) batteries is going to be problematint with short lifspan, less range. In a word battery issues with outdoor use.
3. At 6mph you need 4 pole motors, and 100 or more Amp controller. Less, and 2 pole, avoid... And before buying ANY chair be sure that you can get hold of an OEM level programmer. Or it will always drive like a drunken sailer. That basically means R-Net nowadays... Beware permobil as they use a lot of one off permobil only seating, and stability modules meaning that you will be relying on them when it goes wrong. And judging by the posts here they seem to do that a lot.
4. Rear drive (once you move the seat back, use a centre footplate etc, are much better at outdoors, and stability at speed. Front drive are good on curbs. Are naturally directionally unstable. And so must be fitted with a stability module. This means they can actually go 6 or 7 mph without spinning around and facing the wrong way. But you can feel this working, and it removes the stick authority and so they feel distinctly odd at speed. Both rear and front drove can be very comfortable outdoors as long as they have large casters, and suspension.
5. Mid drive. Rubbish outdoors generally with a few exceptions. Because they rock back and forth, the caster arms are 'sprung' into the ground to keep you upright which takes weight off the centre drive wheels and means that when reversing you can easily get stuck or high centred. And because they have so many casters they are allmost always solid, small and rattle your fillings out. Meanwhile, the centre wheels that you are sat on, generally have no suspention. With some notable exceptions. One exception is the X5/V6 magic mobility chairs. These also have no mid wheel suspension byt use the same fat low pressure tyres as my own chairs. So you ride on a soggy air cushion at around 5PSI. They are long, and wide. So crap indoors or in a van. Great outdoors.

[Rollin Positive]

Hi everyone,

I've been using a Invacare Bora electric wheelchair for the past 10 years, but I'm now searching for a more comfortable powered wheelchair, and I'm trying to educate myself on this subject. In particular, I'm trying to find the type of chair that allows the smoothest ride. I need to use the wheelchair indoor and outdoor, and the sidewalks and roads where I live are quite bumpy, and unfortunately I'm very sensible to bumps due to weak back and neck muscles.

I know each wheelchair model is different, but at least generally speaking is there a specific chair type that is clearly more comfortable? I guess my question is should I choose a front-wheel, mid-wheel, or rear-wheel powered wheelchair? Which one is the smoothest when going over an obstacle?

I've been reading a lot of articles, and also Burgerman's advice here (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5624), besides many other threads, and initially I was leaning towards mid wheel drive, due to seeing some YouTube videos claiming those chairs were extremely comfortable, but I think the general consensus here is they aren't. Which makes sense, since most (all?) don't have suspension on the middle wheel.

I don't have full control regarding which chair to choose, that's mostly dependent of my doctor and available budget, but I'm hoping to at least try to push him in the right direction. There are only a few brands available in my country - Invacare, Permobil, and Sunrise Quickie - I think the main candidates are the Invacare Storm 4, the Permobil F5, and the Quickie Q700 or Q500 - and hopefully when the time comes I'll be able to know very well all the possibilities and steer the doctor into the right chair.

I was surprised by the negativity here towards Permobil, I thought it was considered a very good brand (and I have to admit I absolutely love their design, I think their chairs are beautiful, in particular the F5), but in the end of the day the most important to me is comfort. Well, I also need 50° tilt, and ideally also 5 or 6mph speed, and that the chair isn't very wide, but ride comfort is really the most important factor.

Thanks in advance for all comments and suggestions. I'm very glad to have found this forum, it seems many people here have a huge amount of knowledge, and even make significant changes to their wheelchairs (which I have to confess never even crossed my mind). Unfortunately I can't go that way, I need my next chair to be as good as possible without custom changes, but my geek side is loving to see what's possible.

I think as your looking for a new chair its important to talk to those people off line by email, text or messenger.

There is a lot of generalization based on people that have never ridden a mid wheel or front wheel drive.

There are also end users that have never tried other brands so they are brand specific when the talk about there preference.

Having come from a rear wheel drive then changing to a mid wheel when they 1st came out and then trying a front wheel drive major differences.

One issue with mid wheel is getting stuck a lot when you get on steep inclines, gravel, wet grass or mud.

They are ok in tight areas but you still have castors getting in the way and when casters spin it can really cause wall damage, appliance damage etc.

In a front wheel drive you dont have front casters getting in the way so your closer to doors, tight areas etc.

I agree stick with anything that supports 24 size batteries anything smaller nf 22, or 32 size batteries will impact your rolling.

Work with your providers try and get weekend demos at your house and use the chair as much as possible in your home, roll to a store, market, church, school etc.

If you use transportation train, bus, shuttle then use the demo chair here too to make sure it fits your life style.

Your 100% on Permobil bias here I was told when I got my front wheel F3 it was a terrible ride but its one of the most comfortable and durable chairs ever.

Plus there are a lot of Permobil users that agree. Just need to search them out.

I also roll in a Frontier v6 its a mid wheel and great comfortable ride if your a person that is outside a lot!

Take your time and compare on your own then ask questions of other users of the chair your trying!

[horsound]

Thank you very much for your posts, guys.

Storm 4, but Xplore only , because it has front arm suspension .

Then change to pneumatic tyres .

I'll try to check the differences between the regular Storm 4 and the Xplore, thanks.

Avoid anything Invacare these days, the Storm 4 has major issues if you're a heavy user and their lower powered chairs are virtually un-programmable which means they'll never steer correctly. Permobil gets negativity here because of their overcomplicated design which causes a lot of unneccessary problems which could've been avoided, but can be programmed to steer correctly due to the R-net control system.

Sunrise Medical powerchairs are the mostly recommended on here, but need a few mods as shown here... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

Thanks. I've been wondering about Sunrise Medical's chairs reliability, I wasn't aware of them until very recently. Is it an European company? I tried to check on their website, but didn't find information about that.

Regarding the issues you mentioned on the Storm 4, can you please elaborate on that? Do you mean, reliability problems?

Generalisations.

1. Anything with small caster wheels (less than 9 or 10 inches) will cause the teeth to be rattled about on what passes for pavements.
2. Anything with less than grp24 (70 to 80Ah) batteries is going to be problematint with short lifspan, less range. In a word battery issues with outdoor use.
3. At 6mph you need 4 pole motors, and 100 or more Amp controller. Less, and 2 pole, avoid... And before buying ANY chair be sure that you can get hold of an OEM level programmer. Or it will always drive like a drunken sailer. That basically means R-Net nowadays... Beware permobil as they use a lot of one off permobil only seating, and stability modules meaning that you will be relying on them when it goes wrong. And judging by the posts here they seem to do that a lot.
4. Rear drive (once you move the seat back, use a centre footplate etc, are much better at outdoors, and stability at speed. Front drive are good on curbs. Are naturally directionally unstable. And so must be fitted with a stability module. This means they can actually go 6 or 7 mph without spinning around and facing the wrong way. But you can feel this working, and it removes the stick authority and so they feel distinctly odd at speed. Both rear and front drove can be very comfortable outdoors as long as they have large casters, and suspension.

Thanks Burgerman. Modding/changing a chair is definitely not something I could do, I'm tetraplegic, and don't really know anyone nearby that would be willing to make the necessary changes. Unless the shop selling the chair would make them, but I suspect they wouldn't. And after reading your post I'm even more worried than before, lol, because RWD seems to be only acceptable after making the described changes, and FWD seems to be even worse, unsafe at high-speed, or at least have terrible handling.

Your comment about small caster wheels makes me wonder if it's easy to increase the size of the caster wheels in all chairs. For example something like the Quickie Q700, or similar, the caster wheels are relatively small, but due to the design of the chair it's inevitable that the chair tilts significantly, if bigger caster wheels are installed. The chair would be tilted forward or backward several degrees.

I think as your looking for a new chair its important to talk to those people off line by email, text or messenger.

There is a lot of generalization based on people that have never ridden a mid wheel or front wheel drive.

There are also end users that have never tried other brands so they are brand specific when the talk about there preference.

Having come from a rear wheel drive then changing to a mid wheel when they 1st came out and then trying a front wheel drive major differences.

One issue with mid wheel is getting stuck a lot when you get on steep inclines, gravel, wet grass or mud.

They are ok in tight areas but you still have castors getting in the way and when casters spin it can really cause wall damage, appliance damage etc.

In a front wheel drive you dont have front casters getting in the way so your closer to doors, tight areas etc.

I agree stick with anything that supports 24 size batteries anything smaller nf 22, or 32 size batteries will impact your rolling.

Work with your providers try and get weekend demos at your house and use the chair as much as possible in your home, roll to a store, market, church, school etc.

If you use transportation train, bus, shuttle then use the demo chair here too to make sure it fits your life style.

Your 100% on Permobil bias here I was told when I got my front wheel F3 it was a terrible ride but its one of the most comfortable and durable chairs ever.

Plus there are a lot of Permobil users that agree. Just need to search them out.

I also roll in a Frontier v6 its a mid wheel and great comfortable ride if your a person that is outside a lot!

Take your time and compare on your own then ask questions of other users of the chair your trying!

Thanks Rollin Positive. I'll try to try several chairs when the evaluation process occurs, but I'm not very hopeful. However, I have to say that on my RWD Invacare Bora the driving performance is perfectly acceptable for me. Definitely not comfortable, but besides that it's ok. I'm sure it could be better, and maybe I'd be amazed if I ever could try am ''ideal'' chair, but maybe this is a situation where the expression ''ignorance is bliss'' applies.

As a designer I can't fault F3 visual design, I wish all wheelchair manufacturers learned from Permobil in that regard. Not necessarily copying it, of course, but making their wheelchairs aesthetically pleasing. I think it'd help a lot to integrate wheelchair users in society.

But since you mentioned your F3, may I ask if you regularly drive it at full speed? And from your experience, is it perfectly safe, or do you have some reservations about the handling at high speeds?

[Burgerman]

Thanks Rollin Positive. I'll try to try several chairs when the evaluation process occurs, but I'm not very hopeful. However, I have to say that on my RWD Invacare Bora the driving performance is perfectly acceptable for me. Definitely not comfortable, but besides that it's ok. I'm sure it could be better, and maybe I'd be amazed if I ever could try am ''ideal'' chair, but maybe this is a situation where the expression ''ignorance is bliss'' applies.

Because every chair can have 101 custom parts, and configurations its at best pretty much useless to do short term test rides. I fix many chairs for freinds and have tested loads for fun at shows etc over the last 22 years. A great chair can leave a really bad impression if the seating is in the wrong position. Or if the test chair is programmed badly (trust me this makes a huge difference. Esp if the joystick or arm if configured in the wrong position. Or the one you test has small casters or something.

I will give a simple example. I tested other users rear drive, mid drive Salsa chairs over the years. But while they LOOK initially the same as the Salsa I ordered for my own personal use, they were absolutely dismal and unusable. Wouldnt turn, no rear traction, pretty much unusable indoors, ucomfortable etc. Based on a test I would never order one. But because I understood what a few changes can do, I ordered a chair that was on the face of it useless as it came.

But I ordered mine with a custom centre footplate, more seat dump angle, and then drilled a few holes and moved the seat back, modified the arm control pod mounting, and made drastic control programming changes. I also ordered it not with the weedy 90A stock controller, but with a 120A version. And ordered 4pole motors in place of the 2 pole stock ones. The back rest, and headrest also slightly modified. That and a few minor adjustments so it fitted me properly, and now I have adequate power etc and its a totally different chair. Transformed from the unusable test chair that the rep offered me to try. Into the best rear drive chair currently available. Yet it LOOKS the same as the one I tested unless you understand the differences.

So understanding the parameters, possibilities, adjustments, options and not least the programming is AT LEAST as important as trying one. Because that can be worse than misleading. And anyone assessing a chair without doing all the above, or at least understanding what is possible, is going to be mislead in the extreme. Theres no stock chair that I could ever get on with.

And yes. You are as you say. And so is rollin positive, who has never tried a properly programmed chair for e.g. and doesent own a programmer. His views are therefore somewhat limited because he wont open his eyes to the possibilities. Many of these small changes SHOULD be done by the chair suppliers. But never are. The front drive chairs are 'stable' at full speed. And with stock delayed action, and vague steering, the programming disguising the stability effect of the built in gyro/accellerometer. So he will think its great! So as you say, ignorance is bliss. So yes, test. But be aware that small things colour the view of a chair drastically! And these things can be very misleading. And easily sorted. Or not depending on the chairs design.

For e.g. read the first post HERE carefully. All the choices and options I selected is the difference between an excellent chair, and a terrible one. And both look the same... READ carefully. and only then scroll down and look at pictures. Yes I also swapped the rear wheels and tyres. Ignore that.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5624

The DETAILS are the important part. Many of those involve ticking the right option on the order form. Or a small nut/bolt adjustment. Or a simple programming change. NEVER buy any chair that YOU cant get an OEM programmer for. I do that before I would ever even consider buying the chair. Because that alone is a deal breaker. Its that important. Again, ignorance is bliss. Once you experience a chair that is programmed correctly, all the rest are then like wow! How do people manage with those? This is 95% of all chairs out there in the world...

[greybeard]

Seems to me that discussions and opinions on powerchairs soon become similar to ones on religion or politics. Zealots soon appear with tub-thumping views about why their opinion is the only "right" one.

I acquired a stock Invacare TDX SP2 NB a while ago and while being older it has the ability to be programmed, I was pleasantly surprised to find that it steered perfectly so needed no reprogramming at all. I may just have been lucky.
I have also found no issues at all with my front drive Handicare Puma 40 at its maximum 6mph. I like its indoor manoeuvrability.

If I was a zealot I would be insisting that stock Invacares handle well enough for most users (that would clearly be an exaggeration!) and front drive should be everyone's choice. Instead I advise you to try as many different makes and configurations as possible and settle on one that suits you best.

Opinions, no matter how often repeated, are not always correct.

[Burgerman]

I acquired a stock Invacare TDX SP2 NB a while ago and while being older it has the ability to be programmed, I was pleasantly surprised to find that it steered perfectly so needed no reprogramming at all. I may just have been lucky.
I have also found no issues at all with my front drive Handicare Puma 40 at its maximum 6mph. I like its indoor manoeuvrability.

2 questions.
Will you allow me to program your chair, make sure you have correct joystick position and technique, and then repeat your honest opinion?

Because the difference for every single person that has tried this is absolute black and white, night and day. Never has anyone wanted to return to what you have. I have done the same to maybe 35 users over the last 22 years. Yet most thought that their chairs were fine right up until this point. Theres a few on here that have tried this too. Non will ever be able to go back to what you are currently using, and which you currently think is OK.

This, turn acceleration issue, (basically 4 settings) is not about user perception, different opinions. Nor is it about getting used to a different chair. If CORRECTLY programmed all chairs feel identical to control. Other than wheel positions. Its just a matter of never having ever had a chair that steers and responds properly to compare your experience to.

The only exceptions are those that dont have proper normal hand movements. In that case theres no way ever to get proper control, and all those delays allow you to steer like the joystick is a pudding stirrer and you just wait till it goes where you want and slam the joystick about. The same applies to those that do not hold the joystick correctly. Those delays/accellerations allow the chair to drive while you slam the stick around and wait.

Every time someone tells me their chair drives well, easy to control, and I have a go its always the same! Unsteerable and frankly dangerous at speed. I fix it, they are always amazed and refuse to let me put it back how it was. I see this over and over for 2 decades.

[ex-Gooserider]

Welcome to the board Horsound, as you have probably noticed by now there are some very strong opinions to be found here.... It would be helpful if you can go to the User Control Panel near the top of every page, and fill in at least your country... This is an international forum and it helps us make suggestions that are appropriate to where you live..... It can also be helpful to tell us a bit about yourself, particularly about what your disabilities are (you mentioned being a quad, what kind of hand / arm function do you have as an example) We don't need medical history details, but the sorts of things a good evaluation for a chair would ask are useful....

Now for my strong opinions.....

ALL of the chair makers put a great many restrictions and limitations on their chairs at the factory - allegedly to 'keep us safe' but which also act to limit what we can do... This includes controller programming to make the chair driveable by the most severely handicapped that imposes a lot of limits on what the rest of us can do. That is WHY we feel that the ability to reprogram the controllers is so important....

Another issue is that since most chairs are paid for by some sort of insurance (gov't or private) and not by the users, the manufacturers follow the basic rule of 'keep the customer happy' but WE are not the customers (as in who pays for it...), the customers are the insurance companies - who are looking for the cheapest thing they can get us to take....

For companies -

Permobile makes great looking chairs - but all the fancy plastic on the outside makes them harder to work on.... They also use a lot of proprietary tech that is mostly wonderful while it works but is difficult / expensive to repair if it breaks.... They use R-net controllers, but mix in a lot of their own electronics which makes it very difficult to fix programming issues on them, and / or work around some of the restrictions put on the chairs to 'protect' the user.... They basically only make FWD at this time....

Invacare makes reasonable chairs, but they have lately introduced a new controller setup "Lynx" that you have seen mentioned already...

Sunrise / Quickie again make reasonably good reliable chairs and are probably what I'd be inclined to look at these days as they use R-net and avoid the proprietary stuff that causes problems w/ Permobile.

Pride / Quantum are arguably the worst build quality in the business, and again use proprietary, locked down controller electronics.... They are probably the bottom of my list for consideration....

However it is also important to remember that there are only a few suppliers for the parts that go into a power chair - the manufacturers basically bend a few tubes into a frame, and make a bunch of cosmetic covers - and them bolt on all the parts that they get from the SAME few suppliers....

ex-Gooserider

[snaker]

My old chairs were 6kph and 8kph and I only drove them about 15km a day (due to lead batteries). They used to steer 'perfectly' with their stock programming too. Then I had a new chair, faster 14.5kph and I usually go outdoor 100km a trip with my lithium pack. I could say that I could not survive with its stock programming and I had to reprogram it to make it drivable. Then I tried to reprogram my old chairs, they became more than 'perfect'. I mean to understand the true value of a 'properly' reprogrammed chair (or anything), we have to truly use it first.

I have questions for those who feel FWD steers 'perfectly' at max speed 6mph: Did you ever drive it down a steep slope at max speed? How did it steer in that case? If the max speed is higher say 15kph, it is still drivable?

[horsound]

It would be helpful if you can go to the User Control Panel near the top of every page, and fill in at least your country... This is an international forum and it helps us make suggestions that are appropriate to where you live..... It can also be helpful to tell us a bit about yourself, particularly about what your disabilities are (you mentioned being a quad, what kind of hand / arm function do you have as an example) We don't need medical history details, but the sorts of things a good evaluation for a chair would ask are useful....

Good point. I just updated the info on my control panel. I live in Europe, in sunny Portugal.

Regarding my disabilities, I wrote a bit about that on my introductory thread last week, but basically I'm 40, tetraplegic, due to a spinal cord tumor 30 years ago, affecting C-3 and below. I can move my arms, despite not feeling my body below the neck/shoulders (I only have some residual sensibility, maybe 5% - I can use a computer mouse, and also the wheelchair controller/joystick, but not much else), and my hand dexterity is very low. Long story short, all my muscles are very weak - that's why the ride vibrations affect me so much - and I can't transfer myself from the bed to the chair and back again, it's always necessary someone to take my feet from the chair, placed them on the floor, and so on.

Something I forgot to mention and that is rather uncommon is that I almost always ride my wheelchair with a lot of tilt (30°!), because it helps me feel more comfortable. If I drive with only 15 or 20° the time I can be on the chair decreases very significantly, from 6 or 7 hours (maximum) to just 1 or 2 hours. I actually never met someone that drives with so much tilt.

About everyone having a strong opinion, that's a good thing! And it's actually helping me learn a lot, this past week here I've been learning more about powered wheelchairs than in the past 10 years. Burgerman is clearly very opinionated, as several other forum members, but I can see everyone's reasons. And that's helping me realize it's all about priorities and what's more important for each specific person.

I'm still digesting all this info, but reading yesterday's posts I got a few more questions on my mind (sorry if they're basic)....

2 vs 4 pole motors
Can someone please explain why 4 pole motors are better? It seems everyone agrees on this point, but in any case I'd like to learn why. I tried to Google it, but I didn't find specific info regarding wheelchair motors on this subject.

Batteries:100 Ah or more
I don't know much about batteries, but is there any advantage on getting a bigger battery besides not being necessary to charge them so often? I'm asking this because I don't ride many kilometers per week, sometimes I only charge my current chair once a month! I'm guessing that if my next chair has a much better suspension I'll drive it more, but not even close to what some users here drive.

min of 100A or 120A control system
Burgerman mentioned this above, and also on other threads, but can someone please enlighten me on the importance of this subject? (Sorry again for my lack of knowledge on this area)

Foot rests - swing-away vs single
I saw this subject mentioned on other threads, and I like the idea of having a single foot rest, it'd improve the maneuverability indoors (I have tight corridors and doors), but I'm wondering how/if the single foot rests are supposed to be removable when the user gets in/out of the chair.

As I mentioned above, I can't do this on my own, so the typical process is to tilt the chairs forward, to 0 or 10° tilt, remove the straps that hold my feet to the feet rests (my chair has 2 swing away feet rests), remove the swing away feet rests, place my feet on the floor, and using a ''transfer plate'', slide my body to the bed, using strength and gravity. Basically I'm just a spectator for all this, the most I can do is to help a tiny bit by holding the person doing all this by the shoulders, when sliding to the bed.

I'm trying to remember if I ever saw this type of transfer from someone with a wheelchair using a single foot rest, but I don't think I ever saw it. Is that even possible? If the central foot rest isn't removable, the only thing that comes to mind would be to place the user's feet on one of the sides of the foot rest, but I'm not sure if it's doable.

Sorry for so many questions.

[LROBBINS]

I'll let others answer your other questions, but the foot plate one is easy. Most are available with a flip-up hinge, or even split in the center with separate flip up hinges. So you just flip the plate behind your legs and you have access to the floor without having to remove anything.

[Burgerman]

2 vs 4 pole motors
Can someone please explain why 4 pole motors are better? It seems everyone agrees on this point, but in any case I'd like to learn why. I tried to Google it, but I didn't find specific info regarding wheelchair motors on this subject.

They are not better as far as motor design is concerned. But as far as WHEELHAIR motor design is concerned they are. Why? Because generally the only difference between the typical 2 and 4 pole motors is an extra set of brushes. And an extra set of magnetic poles. All else remains the same. So this results in motors that have double the torque at any given voltage. And that take double the Amps at any given voltage. What does that mean to a chair user?
It means that provided you have a matching high amp (100 to 120A per channel) controller, you get more torque. And that increased torque applies as speed increases. So when you want to zero turn, that can suck up to 120A per motor on a 6 to 8 mph chair, esp if its a nose heavy rear drove, or tail heavy front drive - you can! It actually turns. With a heavy 190KG rehab seating setup, chair, and a heavy user this is actually essensial or the chair wil not be able to follow the stick. 2 pole motors just dont draw enough Amps.
Volts = RPM or speed.
Amps = Torque. And 2 pole motors are higher (double the resistance or impedance) so draw half the current. Less Amps = less torque.

Batteries:100 Ah or more
I don't know much about batteries, but is there any advantage on getting a bigger battery besides not being necessary to charge them so often? I'm asking this because I don't ride many kilometers per week, sometimes I only charge my current chair once a month! I'm guessing that if my next chair has a much better suspension I'll drive it more, but not even close to what some users here drive.

Its always better to get the biggest battery, as long as its a quality gel like MK or Sonnenschein deep cycle battery. Or an Odyssey battery. Why is it important to get the biggest possible? Because the chair wants to take 120A per motor at times. In order to deliver that current needed in a heavy rehab type chair, that is 6 to 8 mph capable, this GRP24 battery, as above is essential. Or you get voltage drop under load, and less torque. You also find that this increases with age. And with discharge level. So that even the largest generally available which is the 70 to 80Ah range, isnt really adequate. But the best compromise. Because of something called Peukert, you will only get around half the Ah from a lead battery as it says on the label. And less than that if its a cheap AGM or similar. And using a smaller capacity battery means its not able to perform adequately, cannot give the Amps, required for good control. And the average daily discharge level will be higher and so it goes in the bin much sooner. Lead batteries, that are as large as possible, of just a few premium brands are suitable. Even then, they wont last more than a year to two years. And are 500 a set.

min of 100A or 120A control system
Burgerman mentioned this above, and also on other threads, but can someone please enlighten me on the importance of this subject? (Sorry again for my lack of knowledge on this area)

As a guide...
70 amp is adequate in a 4mph or light chair with a 7 stone user. Or with 2 pole motors. Just. Torque will be lacking. So curbs, ramps, turning in place, etc will be just about adequate. With a 6mph chair, that will not be adequate since increasing speed, (just means taller gearing in the motors) also reduces torque proportionally. So now, you need 50% more Amps, to get the same torque. Thats where 4 pole motors, 120A controlles come in...

Foot rests - swing-away vs single
I saw this subject mentioned on other threads, and I like the idea of having a single foot rest, it'd improve the maneuverability indoors (I have tight corridors and doors), but I'm wondering how/if the single foot rests are supposed to be removable when the user gets in/out of the chair.

Mine are not. My feet stay on the footplate as my ass is slid on a board to my bed. I use a chair because I dont do standing or walking. In this is essential to you, they also flip up, or in the case on my Salsa, power down to the ground. So you stay on it... The BIGGEST reason for a centre footplate on a rear drive chair is that it allows you to move the seat back, heels between the casters, so that the chair does not need 400Amps to turn... And so that the chair is/feels shorter and more nimble, esp indoors, and to increase traction on the main drive wheels and take weight off the casters.

[Irving]

2 vs 4 pole motors
Can someone please explain why 4 pole motors are better? It seems everyone agrees on this point, but in any case I'd like to learn why. I tried to Google it, but I didn't find specific info regarding wheelchair motors on this subject.

Put simply, 4-pole motors give higher torque & are more efficient than 2-pole. For outdoor, and especially off-pavement, 4-pole are preferred. If all you do is stay indoors then it makes little difference.

Batteries:100 Ah or more
I don't know much about batteries, but is there any advantage on getting a bigger battery besides not being necessary to charge them so often? I'm asking this because I don't ride many kilometers per week, sometimes I only charge my current chair once a month! I'm guessing that if my next chair has a much better suspension I'll drive it more, but not even close to what some users here drive.

The main benefit, to all users, range aside, is longevity. A standard 74Ah lead acid battery set is good for 40Ah before being depleted and will last a year to 18mo of moderate use, 9mo of heavy use. Replacing with 100A+ of lithium gives greater range, but equally importantly, greater longevity, to 10y or more. And significantly lower total cost of ownership (~ £100/yr v £250+/yr over 10y).

Charging your batteries, however little used, once a month is bad for them and will shorten their life significantly. Lead-acid like to be full all the time, so should be charged as often as possible, at least every night. You may argue (as have others) that your batteries last longer than a year or so, maybe even 5y, especially if you rarely leave the house, but that's because the deterioration is so gradual you don't realise how poor the chair is really performing - until one day you go out and find it won't climb a ramp or dies after a couple of km.

min of 100A or 120A control system
Burgerman mentioned this above, and also on other threads, but can someone please enlighten me on the importance of this subject? (Sorry again for my lack of knowledge on this area)

Linked to 4-pole motors which can draw more current and therefore benefit from the higher capability of the 120A controller over 90A or less options. Especially outdoors/off-pavement.

Like many things, it all works better if system components are matched together, so 4-pole motors, 120A R-Net controller and better batteries just work better.

[Irving]

hmmm, seems BM was typing at the same time, but being a tetra it takes me longer to type less

[steves1977uk]

Avoid anything Invacare these days, the Storm 4 has major issues if you're a heavy user and their lower powered chairs are virtually un-programmable which means they'll never steer correctly. Permobil gets negativity here because of their overcomplicated design which causes a lot of unneccessary problems which could've been avoided, but can be programmed to steer correctly due to the R-net control system.

Sunrise Medical powerchairs are the mostly recommended on here, but need a few mods as shown here... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

Thanks. I've been wondering about Sunrise Medical's chairs reliability, I wasn't aware of them until very recently. Is it an European company? I tried to check on their website, but didn't find information about that.

Regarding the issues you mentioned on the Storm 4, can you please elaborate on that? Do you mean, reliability problems?

The problems with the Storm 4 as BM found out is that the controller shuts down when it overheats during zero turns, even when it's empty it can draw 190A+ from the batteries! And Invacare can't fix it because it's a flaw in their design due to making the chair too heavy.

Sunrise Medical have partners in the EU... https://www.sunrisemedical.eu/ Their chairs are easier to fix/repair due to no one-off parts.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Hal 9000

[Rollin Positive]

Thank you very much for your posts, guys.

Storm 4, but Xplore only , because it has front arm suspension .

Then change to pneumatic tyres .

I'll try to check the differences between the regular Storm 4 and the Xplore, thanks.

Avoid anything Invacare these days, the Storm 4 has major issues if you're a heavy user and their lower powered chairs are virtually un-programmable which means they'll never steer correctly. Permobil gets negativity here because of their overcomplicated design which causes a lot of unneccessary problems which could've been avoided, but can be programmed to steer correctly due to the R-net control system.

Sunrise Medical powerchairs are the mostly recommended on here, but need a few mods as shown here... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

Thanks. I've been wondering about Sunrise Medical's chairs reliability, I wasn't aware of them until very recently. Is it an European company? I tried to check on their website, but didn't find information about that.

Regarding the issues you mentioned on the Storm 4, can you please elaborate on that? Do you mean, reliability problems?

Generalisations.

1. Anything with small caster wheels (less than 9 or 10 inches) will cause the teeth to be rattled about on what passes for pavements.
2. Anything with less than grp24 (70 to 80Ah) batteries is going to be problematint with short lifspan, less range. In a word battery issues with outdoor use.
3. At 6mph you need 4 pole motors, and 100 or more Amp controller. Less, and 2 pole, avoid... And before buying ANY chair be sure that you can get hold of an OEM level programmer. Or it will always drive like a drunken sailer. That basically means R-Net nowadays... Beware permobil as they use a lot of one off permobil only seating, and stability modules meaning that you will be relying on them when it goes wrong. And judging by the posts here they seem to do that a lot.
4. Rear drive (once you move the seat back, use a centre footplate etc, are much better at outdoors, and stability at speed. Front drive are good on curbs. Are naturally directionally unstable. And so must be fitted with a stability module. This means they can actually go 6 or 7 mph without spinning around and facing the wrong way. But you can feel this working, and it removes the stick authority and so they feel distinctly odd at speed. Both rear and front drove can be very comfortable outdoors as long as they have large casters, and suspension.

Thanks Burgerman. Modding/changing a chair is definitely not something I could do, I'm tetraplegic, and don't really know anyone nearby that would be willing to make the necessary changes. Unless the shop selling the chair would make them, but I suspect they wouldn't. And after reading your post I'm even more worried than before, lol, because RWD seems to be only acceptable after making the described changes, and FWD seems to be even worse, unsafe at high-speed, or at least have terrible handling.

Your comment about small caster wheels makes me wonder if it's easy to increase the size of the caster wheels in all chairs. For example something like the Quickie Q700, or similar, the caster wheels are relatively small, but due to the design of the chair it's inevitable that the chair tilts significantly, if bigger caster wheels are installed. The chair would be tilted forward or backward several degrees.

I think as your looking for a new chair its important to talk to those people off line by email, text or messenger.

There is a lot of generalization based on people that have never ridden a mid wheel or front wheel drive.

There are also end users that have never tried other brands so they are brand specific when the talk about there preference.

Having come from a rear wheel drive then changing to a mid wheel when they 1st came out and then trying a front wheel drive major differences.

One issue with mid wheel is getting stuck a lot when you get on steep inclines, gravel, wet grass or mud.

They are ok in tight areas but you still have castors getting in the way and when casters spin it can really cause wall damage, appliance damage etc.

In a front wheel drive you dont have front casters getting in the way so your closer to doors, tight areas etc.

I agree stick with anything that supports 24 size batteries anything smaller nf 22, or 32 size batteries will impact your rolling.

Work with your providers try and get weekend demos at your house and use the chair as much as possible in your home, roll to a store, market, church, school etc.

If you use transportation train, bus, shuttle then use the demo chair here too to make sure it fits your life style.

Your 100% on Permobil bias here I was told when I got my front wheel F3 it was a terrible ride but its one of the most comfortable and durable chairs ever.

Plus there are a lot of Permobil users that agree. Just need to search them out.

I also roll in a Frontier v6 its a mid wheel and great comfortable ride if your a person that is outside a lot!

Take your time and compare on your own then ask questions of other users of the chair your trying!

Thanks Rollin Positive. I'll try to try several chairs when the evaluation process occurs, but I'm not very hopeful. However, I have to say that on my RWD Invacare Bora the driving performance is perfectly acceptable for me. Definitely not comfortable, but besides that it's ok. I'm sure it could be better, and maybe I'd be amazed if I ever could try am ''ideal'' chair, but maybe this is a situation where the expression ''ignorance is bliss'' applies.

As a designer I can't fault F3 visual design, I wish all wheelchair manufacturers learned from Permobil in that regard. Not necessarily copying it, of course, but making their wheelchairs aesthetically pleasing. I think it'd help a lot to integrate wheelchair users in society.

But since you mentioned your F3, may I ask if you regularly drive it at full speed? And from your experience, is it perfectly safe, or do you have some reservations about the handling at high speeds?

Never apologize for questions because when you go through a dealer these are sales people so sometimes the behavior is dictated by commissions paid out.

They also dont roll in these chairs daily, weekly and yearly.

But also you do not need to by a DYI user like some here to get a good comfortable chair! You also do not need to think that a chair you get will not work good and be relible in less you modify it thats just not true!

I help many each year as an advocate both in the US get chairs that will fit there life style and get help with finding funding.

There are some here like Burgman that do there own programming and it if fits there lifestyle that great but as a whole in our community most do not have that skill set or knowledge.

So please dont by in to your next chair not being a good chair just as its delivered to you!

On the F3 most of my riding is fast vs rolling slow so up hill, down hill, flat surface, gravel and mud.

Top speed is 6.1 6.2 plus I am able to lean the seat back if I feel unstable.

Being able to ride with a 30 percent tilt would be no problem.

Footplate is a 2 piece and flips back to transfer out. With no casters in front to get in your way as you transfer.

I also dont buy in to demos chairs being a waste of time.

I have had 20 plus chairs over the last 20 years and always do a demo weekend trial.

Its like driving a car you dont have to have it fit 100 percent perfect to know if it has characteristics that you like or ones you dont.

Once you find a chair that you like its handling then you can work on getting features and options that will make it a even better ride for you.

We are creatures of habit and you say that your current chair is good if only it was comfortable?

Its easy to stick with the same old manufacture, or worse yet the same drive because its what we are use to.

But if you dont demo a different drive you will never know!

The is the number #1 thing you should be looking with your needs is comfort!

Dont forget the newer the model the better improvements on things like suspensions, reliability, and comfort.

[Burgerman]

But also you do not need to by a DYI user like some here to get a good comfortable chair! You also do not need to think that a chair you get will not work good and be relible in less you modify it thats just not true!

IF your supplier can do all the fine tuning, joystick positioning, etc then thats true. From 22 years in a chair, and going to spinal injuries units, dealing with suppliers and our WCS all I can say is that this is a big IF. As for programming, non of them can or will do that for you. If you dont much care how accurately it drives, then no need to get hold of a programmer. However, many here were of the same opinion. Till they took a little advive. And I would like to bet that NON will ever want a chair that they cant program at the OEM level themselves in the future. So this above all depends... Certainly doing a little fine tuning, positioning, adjusting seat and arm and contoller position, and maybe moving sticky out lights further inboard, shortening push handles or other brackets etc isnt essential. But certainly helps! I never found any test chair that was any good, as tested. And it totally colours the experience, unless you understand why, and how it can be changed.

[Rollin Positive]

Here is a picture of the foot rest.

[Rollin Positive]

But also you do not need to by a DYI user like some here to get a good comfortable chair! You also do not need to think that a chair you get will not work good and be relible in less you modify it thats just not true!

IF your supplier can do all the fine tuning, joystick positioning, etc then thats true. From 22 years in a chair, and going to spinal injuries units, dealing with suppliers and our WCS all I can say is that this is a big IF. As for programming, non of them can or will do that for you. If you dont much care how accurately it drives, then no need to get hold of a programmer. However, many here were of the same opinion. Till they took a little advive. And I would like to bet that NON will ever want a chair that they cant program at the OEM level themselves in the future. So this above all depends... Certainly doing a little fine tuning, positioning, adjusting seat and arm and contoller position, and maybe moving sticky out lights further inboard, shortening push handles or other brackets etc isnt essential. But certainly helps! I never found any test chair that was any good, as tested. And it totally colours the experience, unless you understand why, and how it can be changed.

100 percent agree if you can fine tune it can help. But you I have talked about this before...if they cant do the work, or dont have others to do the work you mention then they are going to get a less then perfect chair and that is just not true!

I dont need a programmer to get a good ride my F3 and now V6 give me a perfect ride and both match my life style.

I also have techs that program to my needs and ride preference.

Agree also not all techs know what they are doing so it may tech us as end users to show and tell what needs to be done and not trust they know what they are doing just because they are techs!

Now not to say I am so appreciative of all you do for me on the back end off line but sometimes we need to considers other end users ability, budgets and skill sets.

Lets not set others up to fail thinking they cant get a good ride direct from the manufacture and work with the DME to do that fine turning...

[greybeard]

2 questions.
Will you allow me to program your chair, make sure you have correct joystick position and technique, and then repeat your honest opinion?

Thanks for the offer, John, but even if I lived next door to you rather than far away, I doubt I would ask you to reprogramme the TDX. I know you will argue with me but it really does steer exactly as I require with settings similar to the ones you recommend. I cannot produce these as I no longer have the record. Maybe I am lucky as I said. Maybe a previous owner reprogrammed it already. It is possible. I did modify the joystick to the position you recommend ( I had already discovered the "sweet spot" for myself and done the necessary mods on all my chairs. ) I also have a programming cable for it and the necessary software but have not needed to make any changes other than joystick damping. I have always cupped the joystick housing because I have minor "shakes".

Both my Pumas, on the other hand needed to be extensively reprogrammed using your excellent guidance and a borrowed OEM kit. As you often say, before that they steered like hover craft. I have the wrecked doorways to prove it. I was really responding to your rear drive recommendations rather than programming for these.

Happy New Year!!

[Burgerman]

Both my Pumas, on the other hand needed to be extensively reprogrammed using your excellent guidance and a borrowed OEM kit. As you often say, before that they steered like hover craft. I have the wrecked doorways to prove it. I was really responding to your rear drive recommendations rather than programming for these.

You will be please to know that every manufacturers stock, factory OEM level settings are almost exactly the same as your Puma was. Including the permobils, all the various sunrise, quickie, pride, even chinese chairs, and the iBot...

And very similar default settings on all the Dynamic controls systems too inc your TDX unless someone had fixed it already. But if so it will not be done copletely because on dynamic systems that needs a more advanced tool than OEM even. Which we have. To adjust something called turn acceleration scaler. Thats why I know that almost every chair ever sold drives like a hovercraft. Because I have checked, and altered practically every mainstream chair made. The vast majority of mainstream chairs are all practically identical. And wrong!

[horsound]

Hal 9000

Indeed. I love ''2001''.

Here is a picture of the foot rest.

Thanks for the photo, Rollin Positive. As I wrote above I quite like the idea of having just one single foot rest, as several persons suggested, but after seeing your photo I started wondering if in my case it's possible or not. I'm saying this because due to lack of physiotherapy many years ago my feet aren't/can't be placed ''straight''. Today I asked someone to take 2 photos, to show the problem. I'll attach them to this post. On the 2nd image it's also possible to see how tilted I usually am when driving. A lot.

But regarding the feet position, basically both feet need to be strapped to the foot rests, and even being strapped they still maintain a certain angle, I'm guessing something like 20 or 30°. I'm afraid I never took close attention to single foot rests, maybe there are some that allow each foot to be strapped at a certain angle, independently, but I'm not sure.

I'll try to speak with my physiotherapist, maybe she knows if it's possible.

[jeffreyclay]

I've had two different styles so far. A FWD and MWD. The change over to pneumatic tires for the drive wheels may a very noticeable difference for me. You'll likely not notice it until you go outside and ride some sidewalks. The recommended tire pressure seem too high to me and likely to wear out the center of the tire. To arrive at my tire pressure I wet the tire and drive noticing the contact patch left on the dry sidewalk. I inflate only to achieve a full width patch, usually around 14psi with my tire size and rider/chair weight combination. That gives good tread life, a very slight sidewall bulge that soaks up impact from height changes in the concrete sections (or bricks) while ridding. The wheels that I pulled solid tires off of had the hole for the inner tube valve present so a set of tires and inner tubes were all you needed.

[Rollin Positive]

Hal 9000

Indeed. I love ''2001''.

Here is a picture of the foot rest.

But regarding the feet position, basically both feet need to be strapped to the foot rests, and even being strapped they still maintain a certain angle, I'm guessing something like 20 or 30°. I'm afraid I never took close attention to single foot rests, maybe there are some that allow each foot to be strapped at a certain angle, independently, but I'm not sure.

I'll try to speak with my physiotherapist, maybe she knows if it's possible.

Not sure how they process your order there but in the US I would talk to the manufacture rep and tell him or here your needs and let them modify something that would work?

Most manufactures have off the shelf solutions but if that doesnt work a more custom set up is always possible.

Have you ever thought of no foot plate?

[Rollin Positive]

I've had two different styles so far. A FWD and MWD. The change over to pneumatic tires for the drive wheels may a very noticeable difference for me. You'll likely not notice it until you go outside and ride some sidewalks. The recommended tire pressure seem too high to me and likely to wear out the center of the tire. To arrive at my tire pressure I wet the tire and drive noticing the contact patch left on the dry sidewalk. I inflate only to achieve a full width patch, usually around 14psi with my tire size and rider/chair weight combination. That gives good tread life, a very slight sidewall bulge that soaks up impact from height changes in the concrete sections (or bricks) while ridding. The wheels that I pulled solid tires off of had the hole for the inner tube valve present so a set of tires and inner tubes were all you needed.

100% Agree air is the only way to roll...being able to lower and add pressure as needed makes a world of difference.

Its also important if you roll with air tires to keep them filled right each month.

Air pressure is much different per tires and rider.

My F3 I have 29 lbs my v6 I use only 8 lb in the street and just 4 on the sand and beach.

Have latex in both sets of tires to help with punctures.



2x2 photo maker

[Burgerman]

Agreed. Thats why I always swap mine for bigger than stock tyres, and tubeless while I am doing so. The larger the tyre air volume the lower the pressure you need. And the greater the cushioning effect over bumps.

I suffer a lot of muscle spasm. So I always do this.
Even the recent stock chair I bought for its seating trickery alone, the salsa, was somewhat harsh. It came with 3.00 x 8 drive tyres and 9 inch caster tyres.

I swapped those for much fatter 120/70 - 8 scooter TUBELESS (tubes fail easily and cause deflation) and run them at whatever pressure feels best. Because this is a lead power tank, weighng 185KG without driver this is still quite high. I also swapped the 9 inch front for 10s. These are much larger cross section and ride better over everything.

download/file.php?id=8868&mode=view
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818

As well as my usual, http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... medium.jpg
And download/file.php?id=4326&mode=view
And http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... mp-car.jpg
Etc...

[Burgerman]

Watch closely. CASTER TYRES MATTER!
Old very tatty chair. With 4 inches of ground clearance. It has the same 3.00 x 4 ten inch low pressure casters. It shows how they deform as I head up a curb and an edge closely. They do this all the time, but you cant see it happening. The ride is smooth. It stops the vibration and jolts setting off my muscle spasm.

This chair also has fat 6 inch wide rear tyres, at 7PSI. This chair went places every day while walking my dog that any 6 wheel or 4 wheel chair with less ground clearance and small casters couldnt go. The V6 above is the exception, but that chair is much longer (by about 9 inches!) and is 28 inches wide. Mine has the same drive tyres but is under 26 inches wide. So its much more compact so great in a van or indoors too. Its also around 80kg lighter than the newer salsa because it has no seating options, and it is what it is. Unfortunately you cant buy one. Take a look at the V4 REAR drive and V6 magic mobility chairs if the sie isnt a problem.

Why fat low pressure, lightly loaded (seat moved back) matters:

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/soft.mp4