Permobil F3 front anti-tip wheels advise

[MrSpudboy]

A few months ago I came on this forum for advise on front wheel drive vs mid-wheel, and the off-sidewalk ability of each.
Thanks to all of those who commented on my concerns.

I bought a Permobil F3, and it serves my needs nicely. Head and shoulders above the Quantum mid wheel I had in all respects.
My conundrum now is the front anti tip wheels. They get caught on everything. I am thinking about taking them off. The owners manual states that removing them could void the warranty, but I am pretty sure the company I use will not press that issue.

Soooo, should I take them off? Say " Hell yes!" and i will be happy.

Regards

[swalker]

The first thing I do on all my high speed Permobil wheelchairs (which, by default come with the anti tip wheels) is to remove those stupid anti tip wheels. It is easy to do.

The anti tip wheels contact the ground when the slope changes angle abruptly. Such as when entering or leaving just about any type of ramp. If I am going fast enough, those stupid wheels will lift my drive wheels off the ground leaving me stranded like a beached whale. I absolutely hate them. Must have been invented by lawyers!

I have never tipped my wheelchair. I have lifted the rear wheels off the ground, but that is kind of fun to do.

The closest I have come to tipping over was when I was descending a steep trail at a pretty good speed when my wife and her friend jumped in front of me to surprise me. That was a bit scary, but even then, I was not all that close to tipping over the front. The foot rests contacted the ground and did the job of the anti tip wheels.

Steve

[Burgerman]

As long as your CG position is approximately the same as swalkers that will hold true. Are you sure it is? Go fast down a stiip slope, and slam on the brakes... See if it tries to top over the front and the anti tips save you. If no then no problem, get the hacksaw out.

One other thing nobody considers is that if you are driving and it is accidentally turned off, or a bus cable comes unplugs or goes bad, or an error crops up it will stop rather faster than you realise. Depending on programming. To test drive along at say 2mph (where theres not enough inertia to tip it over) and while doing so pull out a bus cable. If that doesent tip it then dont worry.

[flagman1776]

How much trouble are the front anti-tips? How much interference is there? Yes, you could saw them off but that's rather a full on solution and who knows the attitude of the next service tech you may need. By way of compromise... you could remove just the wheels or replace them with a smaller size.

[foghornleghorn]

How much do you value your face? It will be the first thing that hits the ground when you have to come to an emergency stop.


Not a Permobil but FWD outdoors for 19 years now. I wouldn't cut my anti-tips off, although on most brand new chairs I would be extending them and moving upwards.

[Burgerman]

Its a personal risk assessement thing and your choice at the end of the day.

I would remove them most likely as long as I first made pretty sure I knew where the limits were by testing hard.

But then I am the same guy that accepted that throwing a few superbikes down the road at 70 to 150+ mph 3 or 4 times a year was an acceptable risk. Drag racing turbo/nitrous 400bhp bikes, and speed testing at test facilities, working for bike magazines for performance data etc. Everyones idea of assessed risk/danger and what is acceptable is different. Decent leathers, etc offsets the danger. Try getting out of your mates car at max speed a few times and you get the idea.

Anyway, only you can test, and decide. IF in your opinion the footrest is of adequate construction to prevent a faceplant/tip, you have no problem anyway. ASSESS it, and test things before you remove.

[flagman1776]

My thought would be skate wheels or even ball bearings (no tire) with the same center size but half the OD. They'd probably never touch. I'm surprised the anti-tips touch but not the footplate as BM suggests.
My experience with mid drive, getting stranded when it high centered my my own gravel driveway... has forever left me scared by that risk.

[swalker]

Here are some other thoughts:

1. I chose the F5 over the F3 because I thought it was more stable. For me, the F3 had a much greater tendency to tip forward. If I had bought an F3, I still would have removed the anti tipping wheels

2. Removing the anti tipping wheels is very easy and is covered in the base service manual (https://permobil.ca/wp-content/uploads/ ... Corpus.pdf) in section 4.2.8 starting on page 141. Though the instructions don't mention this, be sure to reinstall the 3 bolts after removing the anti tipping wheel arm ( called the Support Wheel Unit), as they are used to secure the motor. There is no need to break out a saw for this:).

3. Note that in Section 4.2.9 of that document (page 142), there is a list of requirement that should be met before going without just the wheel. They want you to weigh less than 242 pounds and have a seat depth of at least 18 inches. I meet both of those criteria. They also want you to have a maximum speed of less than 6 miles per hour. I rarely do that:).

Steve

[foghornleghorn]

My thought would be skate wheels or even ball bearings (no tire) with the same center size but half the OD. They'd probably never touch. I'm surprised the anti-tips touch but not the footplate as BM suggests.

Small wheels for front anti-tips are fine on a hard smooth surface. Anything soft and they will dig in and be worse than not having them. Tarmac with big cracks or holes in will catch you out too if the wheels are too small as you need to roll along a bit rather than come to a dead stop.

I expect my chair is abnormal compared to current offerings but my foot plate folds upwards and would do nothing to stop me going arse over tit.

[F3Head]

My Permobil F3 is roughly five years old. I purchased it without the anti-tip front wheels. I have had virtually no trouble with it. I have to go down a short-steep ramp every morning when I go outside. It never seems to want to tip over. Nor have I ever lifted the rear wheels. Granted I drive it smartly, typically I will tilt back a bit just to make sure that I don't tip over. I do believe there is a weight limit, so if you're heavy you may want the anti-tip wheels.

F3HEAD

[Burgerman]

Not really relevant but...

Though the instructions don't mention this, be sure to reinstall the 3 bolts after removing the anti tipping wheel arm ( called the Support Wheel Unit), as they are used to secure the motor. There is no need to break out a saw for this:).

I discovered the saws of the pre xmas years are hard work. My new tiny 3 inch grinder is way faster and more fun.



I can do a bit of fine tuning on a powerchair, and cut off the likes of casters, or push handles or whatever by the time you find a hacksaw. And its as light as a feather.
I am a bit chop happy at the moment. I have shortened everything, and sharpened the mower blade and am looing around for other stuff to attack.

Goes through padlocks like butter. And my pull out clothes line thing has been modified... That little grinder thing never gets put away. Its a marvelous toy. It goes out in my van too, in case of clampers...

[Rollin Positive]

A few months ago I came on this forum for advise on front wheel drive vs mid-wheel, and the off-sidewalk ability of each.
Thanks to all of those who commented on my concerns.

I bought a Permobil F3, and it serves my needs nicely. Head and shoulders above the Quantum mid wheel I had in all respects.
My conundrum now is the front anti tip wheels. They get caught on everything. I am thinking about taking them off. The owners manual states that removing them could void the warranty, but I am pretty sure the company I use will not press that issue.

Soooo, should I take them off? Say " Hell yes!" and i will be happy.

Regards

I Got mine when they 1st hit the retail market and have never had the anti tip get in the way??

I saw a group of end users at CareCure talking about removing them but it still dont see any purpose?

I will tell you its not the DME that you need to be worried about. But over the next 2 years if you have any issue with your chair where they have to talk with Permobil tech support that is where your warranty can be impacted.

Or if Permobil needs to be brought in over a concern on your chair they may have the local rep consult.

[swalker]

I refuse to alter my lifestyle to satisfy the terms of a warranty. I accept the risk of removing the anti tip wheels, which get in my way often.

For those who care. The anti tip wheels are easy to remove and install (about 15 minutes for an able bodied person). Should you be so inclined, you could always remove them now and reinstall them before a visit from the Permobil rep.

I have had extensive work done on my chairs by both DME (NuMotion) technians and the Permobil rep. I have never had the absence of anti tipping wheels mentioned.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Likewise, warranties are for normal people. Those are suffering with terrible chairs all their lives because they are worried about the great god hacksaw! (Or my new grinder!).


Likewise, doing a little OEM level programming, removing the stupid walls, and then in turn, all that godawful turn acceleration/turn deceleration (and the minimum ones too) and making it steer properly also costs you your warranty. If they could ever figure that out. But the chairs, ALL of them are hopeless without. I cant drive a stock chair 10 feet without feeling angry. So again, its all up to you. Whats your mobility worth? Its your life/legs.

[MrSpudboy]

I am convinced. Thanks for all the input. I didn't need much convincing. It would be my luck to tip over and end up in a wheelchair! That would suck!
I know they are easy to remove...not by me, but I have a couple buddies in mind. I have a small chain hoist that has come in handy a number of times.
Thanks again for all the input!

Phil

[Burgerman]

I once bought a brand new GSX1135E Suzuki. Took it home, rode around the block. Took engine out, fitted different pistons, stronger clutch, a Mr.Turbo RayJay TO4e turbocharger and race wastegate. Bolted it all back together and tested it at the strip. And on the dyno it made 330 rear wheel horsepower. I took it for its 500 mile service which was basically a free oil change a week later. The mechanics thought it was hilarious! The boss thought it voided the warrantee. I thought so what. Thats 3x the stock power output. Warranty? Who cares! I did similar with a car. I dropped a V8 into that to replace the little 4 cylinder motor. And Nitrous.