Magic Mobility V6

[expresso]

yes i understand that on paper - testings it shows it - but in real life - i dont think anyone ever feels the difference or the need for it - maybe that once in 3 years you may benefit from - what i am saying is if you told someone they had 120A - they would swear it and say they have no issues and works great

but in truth its only 90A - you just told them its 120A or they believed that all along - - i get it - it shows you need more - they should just make it 150A and be done with it - once and for all - the best person to ask is the person who has the Chair and never needed more than what it has - which turned out to be 90A -

if you can get any chair with the 120A - take it - i would - or if you really feel the need to have it - ebay and swap it - i would just use the chair as you get it - just sayings its not life or death - it will work fine at 90A also - 99.9 percent of the time -



about removing the seating - what about on the RWD V6 model - the battery is under the seating - i dont think it slides out ?

[Burgerman]

I need it. And use over 90A at least 100 times a day! If it was only 90, it drives horrible, I know because I can set it to 90...

Try it yourself. Does it work? Yes. Does it turn and go when you tell it? No! Its easy to feel the difference instantly.

[expresso]

i have tried that a long time ago - on my P222 chair - its a lightchair though - i was looking to see if it helped on battery range - this was way before i went to lithium - on pilot plus 100A i went down to 80A - i didnt notice anything different - also not a big difference on the battery either - so i went back to 100A

i went as low as 70A and 60A - now there i felt it - at 80A i didnt really - - i havnt tried it again on any other chair since - P222 is a light chair - no seat lift - just tilt on it - and remember i am 150lbs only also - - as i said- most users may not feel it - - anyone can just try it in programming for themselves

[Gnomatic]

Programming should be just read old 90, then write it to the new 120, and then increase amps from 90 max to 120. A pretty considerable 33% increase. And thats it. Almost plug and play.

Yes. It's that simple. I installed the 120A PM on my 2016 V6. I'll put it through its paces outside once the warm weather gets here. I notice nothing different moving around inside.

I had the 120A DX2 PM on my X5. It wasn't any more powerful starting from stall that I could tell.

Provided you already have an ISMx module for seating/lights etc. They used the 120s on the older model. But then appeared to cheap out a little. If theres only a single function, then they get to cheap out even more as the 90L can work an actuator without needing a ££$$ ISMx added to the bill.

Magic Mobility doesn't use the R-net ISM module, they have their own board for seat and lights etc to plug into. But the programmer/software can see all the functions etc just fine.

So yeah switching the PM's is pretty easy. As you said, just read the settings from the 90A PM with programmer, write them to the 120A PM, and increase the current limit to 120A. The only small thing is that the 120A PM is thicker, so I had to replace the stock M5(I think?) mounting bolts with ones that were ~10mm longer. Not a big deal at all.

[Gnomatic]

You have to take the seat off? Must be a design change because now you can get to the batteries with the drop down panel in the back and they tray slides out...


wimp nae nae lyrics

That's not the fun way Timm! Live a little!

Seriously tho, you are correct if you are only swapping stock lead bricks you can loosen a couple screws to get the rear panel to fold down, and swap in some new lead bricks w/o removing the seat..

[Burgerman]

I had the 120A DX2 PM on my X5. It wasn't any more powerful starting from stall that I could tell.

Then you dont have it stalled. You need to load it to see the 30% difference. Or if it was the R-Net you can connect the programmer, look at the PM Diagnostics as you climb a curb for e.g. from a standstill. Or as you turn while stuck in position off road etc. Once beyond around 1mph the motors will not pull enough amps to tell any difference. he gain is in digging yourself out of a hole. Pretty useful off road. It decides if it will move or not when you push the stick or try to turn when trapped.
Also you need to have it programmed with adequate motor compensation, and with turn acceleration, etc turned up high too. Or the delays cover the high amp time. Or just drive it up to a wall in reverse/forwards. You will see it go 120A.

[Gnomatic]

That I don't doubt, but in my real world use, it wasn't noticeable, YMMV. Chair took my everywhere I wanted to go within reason. If the incline was too steep or whatever, the tires lose traction and spin.

[Rye]

If you haven't already I suggest setting up a demo and trying one out and putting it through it's paces.

I have demoed the chair on my property and I did get it stuck because it wouldn't pull out of a rut. The X8 never got stuck, but it was too bulky and tall. I need all the torque I can get.

As mentioned before, the 120A PM can be had cheaply from ebay, and installed on the chair.(it'll need programmed, but that's easy enough) Anyway, good luck to you and I hope you end up with a solution that you are satisfied with.

The main take away here is that I purchased the offroad package after being told it would include the 120 pm. Now maybe the rep was mistaken, but my money was spent so I want what I was told I would receive or a refund. I know all this stuff can be bought on ebay and if I receive a refund that's exactly what I'll do.

[Gnomatic]

I have demoed the chair on my property and I did get it stuck because it wouldn't pull out of a rut. The X8 never got stuck, but it was too bulky and tall. I need all the torque I can get.

Cool. Glad you had the demo opportunity. Given what they are, comparing the offroad performance of the X8 and V6 is a bit apples vs oranges. How did the V6 do compared to your Permobils?

As mentioned before, the 120A PM can be had cheaply from ebay, and installed on the chair.(it'll need programmed, but that's easy enough) Anyway, good luck to you and I hope you end up with a solution that you are satisfied with.

The main take away here is that I purchased the offroad package after being told it would include the 120 pm. Now maybe the rep was mistaken, but my money was spent so I want what I was told I would receive or a refund. I know all this stuff can be bought on ebay and if I receive a refund that's exactly what I'll do.

With the misinformation I'd be frustrated as well. I hope you get your $ back and end up with a solution that meets your needs.

[Rollin Positive]

I have demoed the chair on my property and I did get it stuck because it wouldn't pull out of a rut. The X8 never got stuck, but it was too bulky and tall. I need all the torque I can get.

Cool. Glad you had the demo opportunity. Given what they are, comparing the offroad performance of the X8 and V6 is a bit apples vs oranges. How did the V6 do compared to your Permobils?

[quote="Gnomatic"]

FYI Even with a demo you would be surprised with a little playing with tire pressure what a big difference it makes.

Air down to 4 lbs and I never get stuck...some times DME blow the tires up to 9 or 10 lbs and it rides super firm but go off road and its just to hard.

Also buy a low pressure tire gauge...

Did you talk to Todd yet?

[Rollin Positive]

You have to take the seat off? Must be a design change because now you can get to the batteries with the drop down panel in the back and they tray slides out...


wimp nae nae lyrics

That's not the fun way Timm! Live a little!

Seriously tho, you are correct if you are only swapping stock lead bricks you can loosen a couple screws to get the rear panel to fold down, and swap in some new lead bricks w/o removing the seat..

Oh now I had a x5 and can remember that was a battle with the seat off haha!

[Rollin Positive]

Rye: I just got your message and I am telling you from experience if you have a door open with the distributor or manufacture with an issue your having with the DME use it!!

Todd at Innovation in Motion is amazing at getting challenges worked out.

Obviously someone at the DME gave you bad information about 120 amp controller for the v6 or maybe they just dont understand.

So Todd can help get the misunderstanding worked out so you can still get the chair.

I would take the advice of others if your really wanting to add 120 amp DYI though eBay.

[Rye]

I would take the advice of others if your really wanting to add 120 amp DYI though eBay.

I will be doing that if I get my money back.

[Burgerman]

Dont be in a rush. I waited almost a full year and they were very rare, and expensive. Or very used... Its a bit like fishing. Then just like buses 3 came along all at once, at least inside a week. Cheap enought to feel like you ripped someone off. I paid 40, 55 and 90 inc del. All clean, dust free and unmarked as new. One on here. One on UK eBay, one on US ebay.

Bit like those fancy colour joysticks. Same thing, those were selling for £125 a go as factory refurbs, as new. And 2 brand new, from tom thingy that copies my BM2 chairs. And one refurb/new? For 150 on here from a member.

If you are not in a rush, bargains seem to appear in bunches all at once. You need to keep your eyes open/ears close to the ground!

[Gnomatic]

Yes. A few months ago a poached a barely used 120A PM and several other Permobil bits for $100. It looked pristine upon arrival.

[Burgerman]

The cables are worth that! Bargain.

[Rollin Positive]

I would take the advice of others if your really wanting to add 120 amp DYI though eBay.

I will be doing that if I get my money back.

Rye I get your frustrated but not sure where your getting your information that a 120 controller is going to give you a big difference?

But with that said the fact that you keep saying your talking to Magic Mobility leads me to think you might be confused.

Magic Mobility in AU would route a prospective new customer or new customer having issues to Innovation In Motion in Indiana...

Can I ask when you started going though your order process what model of chair did you want to have ?

Is it a v6 or a v6 AT (all terrain) or something different?

Do you have paper work or a order form for what you ordered?

Give the process and the people trying to help you time to get things fixed because in your city there is nothing out there retail that is going to give you the same ride and mobility for your property and surrounding like a v6

Listen and take direction from Burgerman & Gnomatic who can give great direction on adding a 120 amp controller for cheap.

We are all here to help!

[Burgerman]

Rye I get your frustrated but not sure where your getting your information that a 120 controller is going to give you a big difference?

1. Simple schoolkid physics. 33% increase in available current means a 33% increase in peak torque. That is fact. On every electric DC motor, Amps = Torque. Directly! Its a linear relationship. See image.

2. The simple fact that you can measure this directly yourself, using the R-Net programmer on your laptops display in real time as you use the chair and watch it exceed 90A with your own eyes!!! Every time it does, it ran out of steam! If you dont see that, you are not putting the chair into difficult positions, or have it programmed like my grandma.

The motors on a typical chair, draw up to around 200 to 300A stalled. LIMITED to whatever the controller is capable of... The controller LIMITS available torque. And it is easily demonstratable, testable, repeateable. On any chair. Not to mention that every time I swap a 70, 80, 90A module for a bigger one I can clearly feel the difference and measure it too! For e.g it will climb a curb from a standstill easier. It will wheelie where it didnt have the power at start of roll before to lift the wheels. Subject to programming. It will turn in place where it was stuck in soft ground previously. It is only STARTING torque that is improved. From 0MPH up to quite low speed. Once rolling having more amps does nothing. But on an off road chair thats rather important!

As such, I posted a video of my own non R-Net chair LIMITED to 100Amps (pilot plus runing up against its limit just turning in place!
And also as such I posted a screenshot, from the R-Net software at 114 Amps just doing a simple turn in place on a heavy pile carpet.

Look above in this thread alone! And remember the more powerful the motor the more often it will reach the limit of the controller. So the X5 or V6 is going to benefit more than say a weak 2 pole permobil motor. And yet even permobil fit 120A modules. Ask yourself why that is? And theres never a downside of having adequate Amp capability, but there is if you dont have enough. 30% less torque is quite a difference. Will you feel it? ONLY if/when its needed. Like when up against a curb, and the thing hasnt got adequate power to go forwards.

Of course if you dont understand basic figures, facts, physics, and think a powerchair runs on some sort of magic permobil or magic-mobility woo woo, carry on! But you are wrong!

NOTE: TORQUE and AMPS are ONE line. They are the SAME THING!!!

[Rye]

the fact that you keep saying your talking to Magic Mobility leads me to think you might be confused.

Magic Mobility in AU would route a prospective new customer or new customer having issues to Innovation In Motion in Indiana...

I told you in the Message that I was given the information about the 120 power module by a Magic Mobility (rep)resentative, ie. Innovation in Motion.

Give the process and the people trying to help you time to get things fixed because in your city there is nothing out there retail that is going to give you the same ride and mobility for your property and surrounding like a v6
We are all here to help!

That's exactly what I told you I was going to do in the Message. I am seeing what the local dealer can do first. If that doesn't solve it, then I'll speak with the rep you referred me to. If that doesn't work, then I'll speak to Trump. himself- a joke. I don't care to share my specific information with anyone until I see what my local dealer will do.

Don't forget also that in the Message I said that I cannot accept the chair as is because that would mean I am accepting being deceived. I am not trying to defame anyone or any company, but I was told one thing and sold another. I am in search of a solution.

Rye I get your frustrated but not sure where your getting your information that a 120 controller is going to give you a big difference?

1. Simple schoolkid physics. 33% increase in available current means a 33% increase in peak torque. That is fact. On every electric DC motor, Amps = Torque. Directly! Its a linear relationship. See image.

2. The simple fact that you can measure this directly yourself, using the R-Net programmer on your laptops display in real time as you use the chair and watch it exceed 90A with your own eyes!!! Every time it does, it ran out of steam! If you dont see that, you are not putting the chair into difficult positions, or have it programmed like my grandma.

The motors on a typical chair, draw up to around 200 to 300A stalled. LIMITED to whatever the controller is capable of... The controller LIMITS available torque. And it is easily demonstratable, testable, repeateable. On any chair. Not to mention that every time I swap a 70, 80, 90A module for a bigger one I can clearly feel the difference and measure it too! For e.g it will climb a curb from a standstill easier. It will wheelie where it didnt have the power at start of roll before to lift the wheels. Subject to programming. It will turn in place where it was stuck in soft ground previously. It is only STARTING torque that is improved. From 0MPH up to quite low speed. Once rolling having more amps does nothing. But on an off road chair thats rather important!

As such, I posted a video of my own non R-Net chair LIMITED to 100Amps (pilot plus runing up against its limit just turning in place!
And also as such I posted a screenshot, from the R-Net software at 114 Amps just doing a simple turn in place on a heavy pile carpet.

Look above in this thread alone! And remember the more powerful the motor the more often it will reach the limit of the controller. So the X5 or V6 is going to benefit more than say a weak 2 pole permobil motor. And yet even permobil fit 120A modules. Ask yourself why that is? And theres never a downside of having adequate Amp capability, but there is if you dont have enough. 30% less torque is quite a difference. Will you feel it? ONLY if/when its needed. Like when up against a curb, and the thing hasnt got adequate power to go forwards.

Of course if you dont understand basic figures, facts, physics, and think a powerchair runs on some sort of magic permobil or magic-mobility woo woo, carry on! But you are wrong!

NOTE: TORQUE and AMPS are ONE line. They are the SAME THING!!!

This comment was informative.

[Clif]

I have an X8. It is great for outdoors with lots of space. It is hard to back up but goes where nothing else does.I use it on the beach in very soft sand. I have a Quickie 636 with big tires on it for outside also.

[Burgerman]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9647

Why 120 is better than 90.

[Rye]

I took possession of the chair and in one week I will be writing a review of my experience getting a Magic Mobility V6 and a review of the chair itself.

[expresso]

which model did you get - RWD or MWD ?


looking forward to hearing about it

[Rye]

which model did you get - RWD or MWD ?

expresso, I'll cover that in the review. First, I have one quick question for anyone who wants to answer.

What's the physical difference between an 80a PM and a 120a PM?

[Burgerman]

Only a tiny 80 in a squate on the rear.
So you need to unbolt it and look on the back.


Or use the programmer.

[Rye]

Can't an 80a be reprogrammed to look like a 120a and then just change the sticker?

[rover220]

Can't an 80a be reprogrammed to look like a 120a and then just change the sticker?

Unsure on that but you can see what the serial number is in the software. If it doesn't match the sticker then you know. D number on sticker will help.

[Gnomatic]

What's the physical difference between an 80a PM and a 120a PM?

I don't know about the 80A PM. But I do have some side by side pics of the 90A PM that comes stock on the V6 vs the 120A PM. The 90A PM comes in at ~27oz, while the 120A @ ~32oz. The mounting holes are the same distance apart.

[Burgerman]

Can't an 80a be reprogrammed to look like a 120a and then just change the sticker?

Sorry. My bad - the sticker is on the top!

Answer. Yes it could. And would then "look" identical. I doubt that any dealer would be that corrupt when its so easy to demonstrate that 40A is missing. Just plug in the programmer, yes also serial number in software. You could also just test to see if it does 120A. And you can do that in real time with the programmer too.

M1 and M2 while loading the motors in use, on a laptop via the programmer.
Also I doubt the 80A one will allow you to set 120A anyway it will give some error. Although I never tested that.

[Rye]

I was told before signing that this chair had a power module that was capable of 120a.

Here is what's on the machine:

Here's what the programming was set at:

MagicMobilityV6 (original programming).pdf

(179.58 KiB) Downloaded 168 times

Here's what the power module won't allow:

I doubt that any dealer would be that corrupt when its so easy to demonstrate that 40A is missing.

Corruption?

Right now I have a V6 incapable of what is even advertised. What if it stalls while I'm in the hot sun or about to be attacked by razorbacks? I was told by Todd Libby that it's a simple swap to put in a 120a PM. So I guess someone got paid to remove 90a economy module and put in a weaker 80a module, but not before switching the model number stickers to fool me into believing I had a 120a PM. That money could have been respectfully spent giving me the actual 120a power module I was told I would receive on two separate occasions. Not only did I get screwed, but so did Medicare.

I have 60 acres of ground to plow for now. I'll return to this issue at a later date.