Magic Mobility V6

[Rye]

I went to pick up my new Magic Mobility V6 with the "offroad" package today. And I knew I'd be shaking my head when I got there. I paid out of pocket for the offroad package after two teleconversations with a rep assured me it would come with a 120 amp PM. I did ask for it in writing, but they kept avoiding that request. It arrived with the 90 amp economy PM. So I ask, "Did I pay almost $2k for knobby tires?" I think $2k is excessive even including the 120amp Pm, but I agreed because I've been a loyal patient/customer of this place for various reasons. Needless to say I didn't accept it and was told I could upgrade. Upgrade? I will return the offroad package before I pay more.

Does the V6 come with the 800w motors as the only option?

[Burgerman]

It has 2x 400 watt motors. That 800 is total. They all come with the same motors as far as I know. I got 3 of the 120A power modules fir around £130 absolutely as new. And they are only around £230 new from PG drives.

But dont let that watts thing bother you because it tells you only average max power allowed, Its a max heat/not melt the motor guestimate. Not a measurement. it does NOT tell you how much power the motor actually has. Fitting a cooling fan to a 250W motor can make it a 400 watt motor with no other changes for e.g.

Its easily possible that a good low impedance 250W motor has more torque than a 500W motor. That depends only on controller Amps max, and motor impedance and max speed. Not watts.

If you want more torque on that chair just be sure it has the 120A controller and not the 90A version. Because they fit that on some chairs to keep price down to fit some code or something in the US. As you know.

I would order it with no off road package, get a 120A module on eBay, and order a set of rims/tyres. Cant be more than 400 even at daft wheelchair prices. And yess they charged you 2000 for rims by the look of it. Hell I paid 75 each for the 19 inch split rims on my van!

[FrontierNZ]

Hi there,

I'd like to make a slight correction to what John said:

I own a frontier V6 all-terrain model and they have two 800 kW electric motors!

They always have had these even the C 73 (or the compact 73 as it's called in the New Zealand and Australia market comes with 800 kW motors now).

They also have in-line electric motors which is somewhat more efficient than the usual type

Cheers,

Malcolm.

[Rye]

Hi there,

I'd like to make a slight correction to what John said:

I own a frontier V6 all-terrain model and they have two 800 kW electric motors!

They always have had these even the C 73 (or the compact 73 as it's called in the New Zealand and Australia market comes with 800 kW motors now).

They also have in-line electric motors which is somewhat more efficient than the usual type

Cheers,

Malcolm.

Did your V6 come stock with a 120amp PM?


Any excuse they give is irrelevant because I asked on 2 occasions via 2 teleconversations on speakerphone in the supplier's office with him present if the 120 PM was included withe offroad package and they answer was yes. I also added to the order form notes that the chair MUST have the 120amp PM.

[FrontierNZ]

No, mine came with the standard 90 amp controller.

Whereas my hospital funded wheelchair comes with a 120 amp controller as standard. Did you deal directly with the manufacturer in Australia or did you have to interact with the local dealer?

The issue I had with my wheelchair was that I didn't order one of the options that I really needed on the order form I made a mistake

When it came time for me to purchase my own rehab seating, the therapist informed me that my wheelchair did not have a electric recline; this had to be retrofitted at a cost of NZ$4500 I was not a happy man!

Because I told via email both the factory and the local agent in New Zealand that I needed one of these!

It was an expensive wheelchair but they are extremely sturdy and reliable.

[FrontierNZ]

I found Magic Mobility themselves in Australia were extremely helpful prior to actual purchase, but they kept directing me to the local distributor in NZ. People say that if you can deal with the factory directly and somebody at magic mobility in Australia you get better treatment. I'm not the greatest fan of distributors, their focus seems to be very narrow in my experience.

The one exception to this has been the local dealer for my TA mid wheel drive and the factory in Denmark they are extremely approachable.

You would think that magic mobility would do everything in their power to make sure that every single customer was happy; especially with many customers who have to pay out of their own pockets for a special wheelchair like this!


I understand from others in the US, that the US distributor, one of the main ones hasn't got the best reputation in the world for support. I know that this is an ever-changing situation, and I guess generalisations can't be made, but I know of at least one other gentleman who has had a lot of issues with the US distributors of this particular wheelchair in Oregon!

[Burgerman]

I'd like to make a slight correction to what John said:
I own a frontier V6 all-terrain model and they have two 800 kW electric motors!

Surely you mean 800 watts? 0r 0.8kw

My info came from when trying to buy a pair for a project. They sent me a spec sheet. That claimed 400. Anyway as I said, watts are irrelivant! It tells you absolutely nothing about it power or torque. Maybe a little about efficiency or cooling.

At your chairs 24V and at its 120 Amps your motors are getting 24 x 120 = 2880 watts each at max load & speed.... Regardless of what a spec sheet says is the limit. Watts means almost nothing. Once you get past 250W average (watts is an average input max before overhear) over say 10 mins or so then the controller overheats and rolls back power faster than the motors. So any rating above this wont help.

To know or compare motor power and torque you need only to know its stall torque and current (impedance), the current that the motors magnets become saturated, None of this is related to watts.

This is a 700 watt rated motor. I run it in the air (better cooling) at just over 100Amps, and on 6S arund 24V. So thats 2400 watts. I limit it to 7 to 8 hundred watts on the ground as the cooling is worse so iit doesent melt. Seems perfectly happy. Why is a tiny motor such high watts continuous? It got 1.5 turns of thick wire. Its impedance is super low. Nothing to heat up. And because rare earth magnets, and brushless.

[Burgerman]

Dan payton doesent like the above post and claims its a "pissing contest" I have no clue what that even means here. He says they are 800 watts. And I am wrong. Maybe! Who cares! That was the whole point that I am trying to make. And he wanted his account deleted. Not even sure what he thinks I am arguing against. I suspect he just doesent understand any of it.

'It' being that watt ratings dont mean anything useful, its a theoretical continuous electrical input power rating. Before things get too overheated. Ever noticed how its always a neat round number? 250, 400, 450, 500? And so its an approximation that relates to continuous rolling along for long periods. It says nothing at all about power, or torque, and so basically dont stress it.

If you want to know how powerful (how much torque/speed) a motor has, which is whats important, you need to look at impedance, and at stall current (same thing but one measured with AC and the other measured and use ohms law) and free running current. And that allows you to look up on any DC motor standard graph.

Then add in the speed. (the result of gearing that equalises the output). If the motors are all capable of pulling the max 120A from the controller, which limits it in this case, and I never saw any 4 pole that didnt) then they will all have almost the same torque. There are small differences due to efficiency but theres crap and a bit less crap to choose from. You may see at best 10 to 15 % differences. How do I know, because the DC motor calculators online, dont lie! And ohms law...

And since you will feed them 120A at stall, (or 90?) max, and all the motors will pull more than that at stall, then ohms law tell us that you will be running those motors at 120A x 24V = 2880 watts peak. Regardless of which motors are installed, with the same torque from each. As long as the same top speed in both cases.

Remember that actual real watts is: Amp x Volts = Watts. That you feed the motor. Nothing to do with the "claimed continous rating".
Remember also, the amount of Amps (and so torque) the motor pulls depends only on its impedance.

[LROBBINS]

Watts (power) also has another meaning for a motor - the mechanical power generated at a given torque and RPM. An honest motor manufacturer will cite nominal mechanical watts at rated torque and rated RPM. You can certainly drive a motor over and above that rating, and we absolutely do so for short periods of time, but if you do so for long periods the reliability of the motor will suffer; from overheating, over-stressed parts, insulation breakdown. Full engineering information for a motor will also specify how it should be de-rated for different service factors, duty cycles, ambient conditions and so on. There are ISO etc. standards for motor power ratings, and if manufacturers actually adhere to such standards, the published Watt rating is a fair way to judge the relative oomph of two different motors. Even if not comparable across brands, however, it should be comparable among different motors from one (reputable) manufacturer so gives a way when going through a catalog to make a stab at which one might be suitable for a given application. Of course, that's clearly not the case for consumer products (e.g. vacuum cleaners) where what's stated is a product of advertising fantasy and provides no basis of comparison, certainly not between different brands.

In any case, if reputable manufacturer xxx says one motor is 400 Watt and another is 800 Watt, that second one will be capable of doing more work/unit time over the same service life than the first. It will also be heavier and cost more.

[Burgerman]

True. Thats what I am saying above. But it in no way determines torque or power. Some motors are high claimed wattage. And high impedance and totally gutless. And the other way around.

Basically it doesent much matter what motor watts is over say 250W for a 2 pole 4mph or 350/450W for a 6 to 8mph chair because even my hugely heavy 185 kg plus 130kg of me on top, (the salsa chair); That has the typical 4 pole cheap chinese linix motors as used by permobil, and many others, does not exceed that low average watts. Yet it peaks at 2880 watts! Which is more than exceeding it by a little! Its 6 to 800% more! But it spends far more time running along at full speed where current is way less. Maybe 10A per motor at full speed. So thats 10x 24v is around 250 watts. Less at slower speeds.

But heres the thing. If you try to exceed this, and fing a big long hill, the CONTROLLER heats up by just 10 degrees C and starts cutting back on amps it will provide. So even having higher watt motors wouldnt really do much good. Although its true they may last longer if run at the edge heatwise all day every day.

I remember woody doiing a complex breakdown on this with my BM3 chair years back, and running the motors at 45V and 16mph doesent even exceed their rated watts.

I will see if I can find it.

[Burgerman]

Note, that at 6 and 8 mph continuous not much power (watts) is needed. And that at 16mph I am withing the limits of the motors, just. At 45V.
This was born out in practice to be very close. But it varies up and down as the ground isnt level. Uphill obviously increases it. Downhill can actually reverse it into negative figures if its steep. Even the range this predicted was remarkably accurate. Remember that these were 8mph motors. These use 20% more watts at say 6mph than a set of 6mph motors would do. You can ignore anything past 8mph as thats where 24V would end!

[Rollin Positive]

I went to pick up my new Magic Mobility V6 with the "offroad" package today. And I knew I'd be shaking my head when I got there. I paid out of pocket for the offroad package after two teleconversations with a rep assured me it would come with a 120 amp PM. I did ask for it in writing, but they kept avoiding that request. It arrived with the 90 amp economy PM. So I ask, "Did I pay almost $2k for knobby tires?" I think $2k is excessive even including the 120amp Pm, but I agreed because I've been a loyal patient/customer of this place for various reasons. Needless to say I didn't accept it and was told I could upgrade. Upgrade? I will return the offroad package before I pay more.

Does the V6 come with the 800w motors as the only option?

Rye: Sorry for what your going though with your new chair!

Just so that others that may read this understand in the US where you and I are there is only distributor for all of the US and that is Innovation in Motion in Angola, Indiana.

https://mobility-usa.com/p-frontier-v6-mid-wheel.php

They dont sell direct to consumer so it sounds like your issue is from the DME you bought that chair from...

Check your messages and more then willing to help!

I roll in a Frontier v6 and man its a game changer and I also have a 90 amp and this chair is a beast taking me to places from the beach to the mountains and everything in between.

Crazy comfort and super reliable!

Lets talk and get you rollin!!




full facebook on mobile

[Burgerman]

Wouldnt you prefer the rear drive one?
They are pretty good, tried to buy one 3 years back. Only thing that stopped me was the width a little wide for in my van, although just about doable and price was a little heavy. Couldnt get a decent deal. Ended up at around double the price of the salsa with all the trimmings and best bits, 120A, and all the seating options etc. They are a little pricy for my budget.

This is not a V6 rear drive where I come from its a V4.

[Gnomatic]

Rye, the V6 does indeed come with the 90A PM. At least here in the US, the 120A PM isn't even an option to the best of my knowledge. Regardless, it will out perform very noticeably better offroad than something like a Permobil fitted with the 120A PM.

It sounds to me like your DME dealer and/or dealer rep is misinformed about the product they are selling. Unfortunately this is very common. On the order form your DME would use to order a new chair from Innovation In Motion, you can see on page 8 only the 90A PM is listed as an option, no 120A.

As BM mentioned, almost new 120A PM's can be easily had off ebay for cheap. And they can be swapped in to replace the stock 90A PM with bit of fitting and programming.

Have you test drove a V6? I understand your frustration the rep/dealer. But at the end of the day, what matters is if the chair itself meets your needs, not the spec of this part or that. I mistakenly assumed my first V6 AT came with the 120A PM. Didn't learn till years later it was the 90A one. The chair didn't care while I was hiking offroad in national and state parks, or going on beaches etc.

[Burgerman]

>>> I understand your frustration the rep/dealer.

I would be more worried about paying an extra FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS for a R-Net "expandable wiring loom" on top of the price of upgrading to the 90Amp RNET over the VR2. Do you know what it looks like? Like about 20 dollars worth!

Not to mention FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS almost for a spare 6 inch rim and a tyres/tube! Thats mental.

Or a crazy 400? dont remember exactly dollars for a tyre liner (a thin flat rubber ring that goes in the tyre) to help prevent the punctures they wouldnt get if they went tubeless to begin with, or fitted the same tyres I use that have a puncture proof casing.

They are taking the piss! You guys are being screwed. 10x over.


>>> I understand your frustration the rep/dealer.
Also, the rep/dealer can easily order special builds and options.
When I ordered my last chair, centre power footplate, 120A controller, and the colour BLACK wasnt on the prescription form either... They added that as a special request, got a price and got back to me with prices inside 4 days. So it the dealer/rep was half interested he COULD help.

Also I do seem to remember that they used to offer only 120A options, either the Dynamic DX system or R-Net. But that was the previous model. This one? No idea. But considering it adds 32% extra peak torque I would add one myself... It may not matter if you are light. You wont draw as many Amps anyway. Or if its still programmed in grandma mode. You will likely never feel the difference. It will only affect the times where it stalls against a curb, or when you try to dig yourself out of a hole. But it never hurts to have it for the odd time its required. And yes cheap on here, eBay, etc you just need to watch carefully.

[Gnomatic]

I completely agree regarding prices on chairs etc. here in the US. It's ridiculous and out of hand.

The X5/V6 used to use the Dynamic DX2 electronics with the 120A rated Dynamic PM. Its been all R-net for awhile now. I had one of the last X5's and it had one of the Dynamic 120A rated PM. I compared it directly to my V6 I got off eBay. Both had power tilt/recline etc, all similar. I'm ~220lbs. I took both chairs aggressively climbing the same hills dirt trails to compare. Both would overheat at about the same point on the trails, both 120A rated Dynamic PM and 90A rated R-net. Both had plenty torque. I had to replace my Dynamic PM several times over the lifetime of that chair. Never burned up an R-net PM. (YET)

Right now I have a pair of V6's with the same seating etc. On my 2016 V6, I recently swapped the stock 90APM for the R-net 120A PM I got super cheap off eBay. I'm looking forward testing and comparing the two when the weather warms up.

[Burgerman]

The ONLY difference will be the torque BELOW 1mph. Once rolling at all, theres no difference. Its getting rolling that matters! Climbing a curb from zero. Or digging yoursself out of a hole. Will it go? Or not. So its hard to compare unless you also have your laptop/OEM soft. to see if it gets maxed out at 90A to start with. If it does ever, it would be better to have the 120A one. My guess is that you will see it hit 90A limit often.

Since my own chairs, and any chair I test always does!
Even this had a 100A limit (old 100A pilot plus)with a current clamp over a single extended motor wire:
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/motoramps.mp4
Does it "work" with 80A controller, same chair? Yes. It just feels gutless, slow to respond at times. Now and again it will get "stuck" and not respond correctly.

And the Screenshot of my chair (R-Net programmer screenshot showing over 102.8A and -114.9A) doing a sharp turn on carpet in my hallway. Note M1 and M2 Current here: download/file.php?id=13307&mode=view

Seems remarkably easy to exceed 100 or 110A just by turning alone. If the Salsa was limited to 100 it WOULD probably still turn. They sell them with PM90s... Probably. But its crisp accurate responce would feel like a rubber band and waiting and hoping rather than the joystick connected directly to the wheels. And it may refuse at times and not move as expected. Or may just jam at a curb and fail to move. That extra 30A can be useful!

[Rollin Positive]

Wouldnt you prefer the rear drive one?
They are pretty good, tried to buy one 3 years back. Only thing that stopped me was the width a little wide for in my van, although just about doable and price was a little heavy. Couldnt get a decent deal. Ended up at around double the price of the salsa with all the trimmings and best bits, 120A, and all the seating options etc. They are a little pricy for my budget.

This is not a V6 rear drive where I come from its a V4.

I gave up rear wheel in the 90s with the Pride Blast HD!! I became the king of 3 point turns!!!




We did a video addressing the Frontier v6 AT with the wider knobbys tires fits perfect in a standard ramp van 29 inches wider and you can even turn 180 inside!!



Here in the US you can fund different versions of Frontiers and pay out of pocket for upgrades or you can also find deals on ebay from time to time!

[Rollin Positive]

youtu.be/WFmYGwV2ufI

[Burgerman]

I gave up rear wheel in the 90s with the Pride Blast HD!! I became the king of 3 point turns!!!

But do you know WHY? I dont think you do.



Yes I know you can get an x5/V6 in a minivan. I tried it in my own van. But you cannot get square on to the steering wheel, centrally. With your tyre pushing up against the B pillar you cannot get any further left (left hand drive van). I dont feel comfortable driving that way. True its only around 3 inches off centre. As a passenger, its no prob.
And you have an inch either side on the ramp. Its doable. If the above doesent bother you. But you need that other seat forwards to turn 180, and its tight. You end up getting the ramp wrong now and again and casters hanging over if you rush. As I say you could make it work with care. As a driver its not ideal. I also bang my head as the seats a little tall too.

[expresso]

i like the V4 and would consider that chair in the future - maybe a demo first - will be a while before that happens now - but i wish it had just a bit more speed - 6.2 - is a little slow for me - if they could bump that to at least 7.5mph - i would be more inclined to demo one on the next round

[Burgerman]

I like those too. Just not their pricing.

[expresso]

even if the volts were bumped up after the fact - you think 7.5 mph can be achieved ? thats still slow for me - considering i am used to 12mph now - 10mph is Normal for me

[Burgerman]

On lithium, maybe .6mph?

Personally its enough, I would rather have accurate control than a torqueless thing. I have tries many different 8 mph chairs, and non of them drive as well as 6mph ones if you care about everything other than speed. Its a step too far.

[expresso]

yes on lithium and i do fine with my speed - i am Ok with it - so it dosnt bother me as much as it would you - 10mph is fine - the 12mp is much more sluggish on hills for sure - but i still love the speed - i deal with the rest - back to the V4 - i would be giving up alot of speed there - but if it can manage to 7.5 mph

i may be willing to give it a go - not my only chair so i can enjoy it - and may even like it better in many ways - so things can change -

[Gnomatic]

Wouldnt you prefer the rear drive one?

Personally, no. Both mine are MWD. At least here in the US, the MWD vastly outsells the RWD version.

[Rollin Positive]

I gave up rear wheel in the 90s with the Pride Blast HD!! I became the king of 3 point turns!!!

But do you know WHY? I dont think you do.

Fill me in I am listening...

[expresso]

The V6 MWD looks to be the most stable in terms of outdoors up hills etc, - i prefer RWD But i do like the V6 MWD best out of all other MWD chairs here - if i had to choose a MWD - i would lean on the V6 - looks the best out of the bunch -

i

[Burgerman]

Fill me in I am listening...

Its because all current rear drive chairs, including those in this country have the seating sat far too far forwards and generally use the awful seperate swing away footrests that must sit ahead of the front caster wheels by a large margin to allow them to rotate the other way and point forwards.
(Note that far too far may be 2 to 3 inches only, but it makes a massive difference). Theres another reason, and that is to comply with a rule that it must not tip back when accelerated up a certain slope grade. This makes all stock rear drives feel terrible. And so get a bad reputation, and why there almost non now available in the north american market. Its the reason the mid/front drives are so popular. But it doesent need to be that way.

The result of this means that theres not a single rear drive chair that I would want to use on the market. As configured new. In the US or UK.
But by specifying a centre footplate, which allows you to relocate the seat and the mass further back, shortening the chair, simply by adjusting the seat position, usually using existing bolts/holes etc you can fix that. Now your feet can fit with heels between the front casters instead of ahead of them by 6 inches... And the seat is now more over the rear drive wheels. More similar layout to a mid drive chair with the rear wheels missing.

This means many quite large changes to how it works:
1. Theres far less length overall, and no corners at the now narrow front footplate.
2. The CG is rear biased, meaning a lot more weight over the drive wheels and very little over the casters. So they ride lighter, can be run at low pressures, or even with a flat tyre no problem. But the chair turns lightly under you. Your 3 point turn shuffle greatly reduced.
3. Turning is much "lighter and easier esp indoors as it can now end up shorter than mid drive chairs.
4. downside, the chair is much more tippy. So steep uphill slopes are better taken at speed while slowing or in reverse for safety.

The difference is night and day. This type of fine tuning makes a huge difference. Ask any on here that have done this.
Just as it is with correct programming which you also never yet had any experience of. So all of us that have done this KNOW that all your chairs steer like crap! Its obvious once sorted. And you would never go back.

But you dont ever fine tune any of your chairs. So dont understand what a difference these things make. I personally couldnt use a stock (as supplied new) rear drive chair either! If I had no choice, then I would be forced to use mid or front drive. It does not require ANY modification in most cases but does require a fair bit of adjustment that may mean a couple of hours in a workshop with spanners.

[expresso]

the V6 out of the box looks to be the most stable chair for outdoors - hills - slopes etc, when compared to any other MWD chair on the market - If i had to get one - i would demo the V6 - i dont like any others to even try a demo - i would like to demo a V4 on my next round of chairs - would be a while since i am doing one now - so at least 5 years if not more - 5 is Min.