Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

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Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 29 Sep 2020, 04:32

Well, I'm in the middle of trying to get a Bounder Plus funded and there was some paperwork snafu. Anyway, the Bounder Plus is kaput and replaced by a new line of similar but different chairs.
https://www.wheelchairs.com/products.html
Unfortunately the default controller is 120A Linx but fortunately 120A R-net is a free option. Essentially these chairs have been reclassified by weight capacity and the controllers have been switched, so no more DX2 and no more of their own controller. Also there is something called a Bounder Plus 300 that includes either the off road package or the high speed package. Finally all of these chairs now have independent drive wheel suspension as standard. For some strange reason the Bounder Plus did not have this option as standard. I tried a Bounder Plus with the off road package, DX2, and the lithium battery plus the independent drive wheel suspension and I have to say it is good that the suspension is now standard, since it is a nice ride. I tried it on a lot of different surfaces -- gravel, tree roots, curbs -- it is a smoother ride than the Permobil F5.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Burgerman » 29 Sep 2020, 11:06

They moved from the 19th century to the 20th. Just one more to go and they will catch up.

LiNX run away.
Their own system is antient and ugly and debatable as to how programmable it is for end users like me. And they dont sell bounders here anyway.
So R-Net only sensible current option.
Still on drive chains... OK if you like cleaning and regreasing and adjusting regularly. Fix that and they are in this century.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 29 Sep 2020, 22:38

whow looks like things are changing there -

the soft ride you feel - i am pretty sure its because of the off road package - those large tires with low pressure - because the suspension - dosnt really make it soft - i have the chair - i lowered my Air on both front and back - still not soft but better - front forks really dont absorb much or if they do - i still feel it

i dont mind now - chains - yes have to clean and adjust - but not that bad once you get the hang of it - speed is great - gearless motors - feels much better and with chains - no limit how fast you can reach on downhills - i easy do over 15 mph on many areas during the ride - a bike clocked me at 15mph a few weeks back

he was behind me with those little scooters - and i wasnt on downhill - keeping them clean and smooth not too tight works great -

controller - works out good for the box - programming - not really much you can do - but i dont feel i need to change anything either - i work with it - i feel much better holding that JS knob and feel than any other chair so far

if it had Rnet when i got - i may have taken Rnet for sure - i can program it then better -

i wonder when this all took place - have to check website - if its there bounder 300 is medicare billable - the 450 is for heavy users -
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 16 Nov 2020, 22:32

I discovered that the quote that Numotion got back from 21st Century Scientific included Linx instead of R-net. I wrote to them and objected. They wrote to 21st Century Scientific to change it and 21st Century Scientific replied thusly: "With the Lithium Ion Battery, the R-Net is unable to detect the battery condition." Does this matter? I want to make sure this doesn't have an effect on the charging process (?) The gauge isn't accurate anyway, right? I still haven't heard back about approval on this chair but it shouldn't be too long.
Thanks.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Burgerman » 16 Nov 2020, 22:51

NONE of them can detect battery condition properly if at all.
Doesent make a blind bit of difference. Most of us use R-Net with lithium. Looks full all day long. When it starts to fall, get your battery monitor out £2, and check now and again. But fit a big enough battery and range isnt exactly a problem!

Theres many ways to hit a lithium battery. But if you do it right, and add say 200Ah, then charging that via an XLR socket at 10A will take 20 HOURS PLUS.

Also you need some means of balancing cells.


Heres a battery sucking 12mph heavy bounder. In new york. Way less than 200Ah. Expresso on ride...
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 16 Nov 2020, 23:20

Cool. That's what I thought. And I'm still planning on 6 mph top speed so I should be fine 8-) . They claim that the slower motor with a top speed of 7.5 mph
is 40% more efficient than the motors Expresso has. That sounds about right, doesn't it?
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Burgerman » 16 Nov 2020, 23:48

Yes. But its not as simple as a percentage. The time the faster motors suffer the worst is when zero turning or ramps etc. So indoors etc, grass, hills. They will be almost half the range or less under these circumstances.

At constant high speed in straight lines its not so bad. Maybe 20% loss of range. But also around half the torque available. So not as good control.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 17 Nov 2020, 05:24

you should be fine with 7.5mph motors - and feel much better on hills etc, than i get with my 12mph speed - i deal with it - and enjoy it alot in the summer time - if your getting lithium - will it be covered by insurance ? also its only 100ah - not alot with a bounder - dont expect to go too far - a good 30 miles maybe with the slower motors

but it will get drained at 30 miles - if you get it covered by insurance - fine take it - if you have to pay out of pocket for them - you can do better and fit 200ah in there most likely - and you wont have to worry then

i have to add an extra 80ah in the rear to make it work for me the whole day - i started to use the PL8 to charge - direct at 25A - stock charger - besides slow - its ok - can leave it overnight - but i noticed the pack has lost some already - it may be a 90ah now - at best

free worth it - :)
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 17 Nov 2020, 05:29

Fusiongoat wrote:Cool. That's what I thought. And I'm still planning on 6 mph top speed so I should be fine 8-) . They claim that the slower motor with a top speed of 7.5 mph
is 40% more efficient than the motors Expresso has. That sounds about right, doesn't it?



yes its true - you be better off with them - i went for the speed - but does suffer on hills - have to deal with it - its not the end of the world - i mean if you count - its a matter of a min. maybe vs 30 sec - give or take -

in the end - your have the better motors - and you can always change out those sprockets on your own to get faster if you wanted -
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 17 Nov 2020, 07:58

Lithium MIGHT be covered. I have Medicaid and they covered a Bounder Plus with lithium for someone without blinking not too long ago. Numotion says these days it seems that it just depends on who reviews the request. They will pay for a group 4 chair for me, but this Bounder Plus 300 isn't coded so it's complicated, but the chair itself should be approved. Our Medicaid is better than most. If you are disabled you can make around $8k per month from a job and keep Medicaid. It's only like 2k/month if you can't work. I used to like fast chairs, but am too old for that now. ;)
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 17 Nov 2020, 17:42

i believe the 300M is coded for group 3 - thats why they changed the speed down to 6mph - it has meet the rules in order to be covered by insurance Medicare - Medicaid etc, - if you have private insurance - they may cover more options etc, or not

i got my chair covered with the lithium a few years back - i had different insurance then which allowed it - i still had to make a case for the lithium but it was fine -

but now - its all different and its not being covered - dosnt mean you cant try to get it - - if you get denied - you have to fight it - etc,
its harder to justify - because lithium isnt medically needed - it has to serve a medically needed function -

you have nothing to loose to try and fight it - just takes more time - who ever likes a bounder - should demo one always first

they are not soft riding chairs - i went for it for the speed - and because i was able to get it insurance wise back then - its true as you get older - the speed isnt as important - sometimes i just want to relax and cruise also -

but worse case - you can fit more in there making it yourself and be better off in the long run also -
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 15 Dec 2020, 07:20

Approved! Bounder Plus 300 :dance :dance
Numotion sent me an automated email today saying the chair had been approved. I haven't received a letter yet, but it should be
here any day, based on how long it took me to get the denial letters. The chair was never exactly denied -- it was stupid and I'm
not going to get into it. Numotion also added a self pay amount to the portal, which appears to be around the MSRP of the horn. So I think
almost everything was approved. Obviously I never expected the horn to be approved. I ended up getting tilt and a seat elevator. I thought
about getting recline but I tested the chair with tilt, elevator and a lithium battery and it was still able to climb 4.5 inch curbs so I was
satisfied. Also mostly I wanted this chair for winter weather conditions. I am getting the off road package -- it is included in the price of
the chair now. It looks like from the order form that it goes 6.5 mph with the off road package unless you want the 5.2 mph, which is fine
if you live on a farm, but otherwise not. Anyway, I don't know for sure that the lithium was approved but based on the incredibly small self
pay amount on Numotion's site I think it was. Before today the self pay amount was zero, so that is also a good sign. Of course I could call
but I didn't feel like dealing with them right now -- although the phone guy is fine.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 15 Dec 2020, 20:43

I just spoke to Numotion and indeed Medicaid did cover the lithium battery and everything else except the horn. I just paid for the horn over the phone
and the Numotion guy was surprised that I would want to "pay that much for a horn" ... but... Besides being more useful than a than a typical horn I also
think of it as a novelty item.
I have a question mostly for Espresso. I know people have mentioned communicating with 21st Century Scientific while their chair is being built, but, for example, about what? I have the impression that it is possible to lower the seat to floor height by a little by moving the position of the bolts on the caster
forks (??) Also, if that is possible, what might the drawbacks of doing it? I guess the seat to floor height will be about 21" with the elevator, which I can live
with, but it is high.
I also got lights and power elevating leg rests on this chair. The only negative thing I see here, and it's not very negative, is that they are no longer offering
pneumatic casters. But I really don't care.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 15 Dec 2020, 21:12

hi - glad you got the chair approved and with lithium - i didnt think medicaid would pay for that - the horn is very loud and i like it - - they do charge a few hundred for it i believe - i got it free - i never heard of them not offering Air Tires if you want them - i got them on mines - its a few years ago - maybe things have changed

i was in touch with them during the process to know what i was getting and how - i have lift and tilt - no power leg rests - i have swing away - the first set i got seemed to far out - i had them replaced to bring them in closer - at first they didnt think it would clear the front tires - but it was able to clear them and bring them in closer

i had my chair seat moved back when they built it - it was no cost to do so - not sure how far back they did - anything over what they did would have been a cost - considered custom etc, more work involved - i got the fenders also in the rear - helps alot to keep it clean i had questions on many things since i never done a bounder before -

the brace in the rear of the chair - i put mines on top so the whole back is empty - this way i can hang my backpack with 80ah lithium in there and keep it neatly behind my seat back close - the bar is not in the way - - that was one of my concerns -
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 18 Dec 2020, 03:24

Thanks. I also wasn't sure they would fund the lithium, but they've done it before, so I thought they might. I should clarify -- I'm getting the power elevating
articulating center mount foot board. Not exactly succinct, is it? Now that you mention the fenders, yes, I got those, too. There was some drama about that, but I am getting them. I asked about moving the seat back, but they thought it was a bad idea because my house is basically on a hill. I was thinking about all the wires under the seat ... I mean, they're not shrouded, are they? I'm a little nervous about them getting wet. Do you think this is a reasonable concern?

They did say they can lower the seat by an inch so it will be 20" seat to floor height. Even that sounded high to me but then I realized that my Permobil is already 18.5 so it should be good. Also, on the subject of chains, I was thinking WD-40 to clean them and some kind of synthetic gear lube, but honestly
I don't even know what I'm talking about. Any feedback from anyone on this subject would be highly appreciated :)
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 18 Dec 2020, 03:55

i am not sure what insurance you have that funded the lithium - but as long as you got it - i have to say the wiring is very neat - everything about it is solid - wiring - bolts etc, nothing sloppy - do not use WD 40 on anything - i use these two items

https://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Motorcycl ... 175&sr=8-3

https://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Chain-Sav ... 175&sr=8-4


using a wire brush also - i found that cleaning them after each use works best for me - i feel better - safer - no grinding from dirt build up - and i keep my chains just a bit looser than i think they recommend - i tried following the manual - but noticed they always were too tight - i went a touch loose and worked out better

you will have to figure out what works best for you - when new you will be making chain adjustments a half dozen times till they settle and you find that right spot -
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 18 Dec 2020, 05:22

That's great, thanks! Numotion set a delivery date of like January 7. That seems overly optimistic, doesn't it? Do you recall how long it took them to make yours?
Frankly, I don't much care how long it takes, I am just very relieved to finally have it approved.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 18 Dec 2020, 05:26

i dont recall - but once the funds are cleared - shouldnt be long - that is a near giving Xmas -

where do you live ?
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 18 Dec 2020, 05:45

Denver
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Jay_x » 22 Dec 2020, 22:26

Wait a minute!

ARe you telling me Bounder no longer has the 11.5 mph option?

8.5 is the fastest they go now?

wow, that sucks!

Also be aware oft he chain, things can get caught up into it real easy.

But looking at the new version it looks nearly identical to what I have. I can't see any major design changes at all.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 22 Dec 2020, 22:49

you can still get the chain set you like after the fact and make it faster - its just not advertised for insurance reasons - it wont be funded unless it meets the funding guidelines - 6mph is the standard - you can upgrade up to 8.5 -

i am not 100% sure of this but a call them to get the facts would be the best thing to do if someone really wants the highest speed - i felt the reason most want or get a bounder is for the high speed options - wonder if they will still offer the 48V model or maybe a thing of the past
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Jay_x » 22 Dec 2020, 22:54

Thanks, so other than some electronic changes it seems like its basically the same chair though yes?
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 22 Dec 2020, 23:04

Yes looks it. The use st4 motors slower but more power. It would cost alot if u wanted high speed because u need st3 motors. They used those on the 48v models. st4 motor at 7.5mph. Chain set to get 15mph 48v. But now rnet is used. So maybe 48v is over unless special order maybe. But no insurance will cover that
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 05 Jan 2021, 04:23

Fusiongoat wrote: Numotion set a delivery date of like January 7. That seems overly optimistic, doesn't it?

So, yeah, the chair won't be done until February 18 and I'll get it February 25. I can't say I care very much. If I were in a rush I wouldn't have gone for this chair to begin with. Also, they confirmed that they only offer flat free caters now. Those, however, are easy to swap.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 05 Jan 2021, 05:16

nice - strange about the tires - maybe its an insurance thing - to keep it in the medicare guidelines - who knows they have the strangest rules - but others offer air tires - quickie sunrise etc,

you may be better off anyway with flat free - less to worry about - its a stiff ride - i have air - and removed almost half - i keep my rears at 25psi -

a friend got air same as mines - he got one flat and went to flat free - :D he didnt know he had a nail in his tire - they come with sealer installed which may have helped him but i noticed it right away when i seen it - he never knew - this was at the end of summer - he got them all replaced with flat free tires now in black so they look the same -

in his case - he wont notice any change anyway - he kept the air tires the way he received them - which is just as hard as the flat free - so no difference really -

mines were like 45 psi or 50 in the rear - it was hard-

Did you get the Rnet with your bounder ?
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 05 Jan 2021, 23:39

Yeah, I am getting the R-Net. I'm getting the low pressure off road tires, so they're like 3 psi. I think also they will give me a set of foam-filled that are 13x5.00 in. Kind of strange dimensions.
As for the casters, are these more or less what you have on your chair? https://www.scooterpartscatalog.com/4in ... 154-8.html
Are you still using the dumb charger that came with the chair or are you using a PL8?
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 05 Jan 2021, 23:44

Ok if you are getting the off road rear tires - those should be soft - that link those are the front tires casters i have - my tires are all Air with sealant inside - i was using there charger for a while - i have since started using the PL8 - but i charge it direct - not the xlr - i charge it at 20A or 25A get it done faster and better with the PL 8 -

but i guess you can use there charger also - i dont know how good it can balance them - usually it does that for about 10 mins - with the PL8 it sits on CV for a much longer time - giving it more time to really balance them i would think -
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 06 Jan 2021, 00:01

Fusiongoat wrote:Yeah, I am getting the R-Net. I'm getting the low pressure off road tires, so they're like 3 psi. I think also they will give me a set of foam-filled that are 13x5.00 in. Kind of strange dimensions.
As for the casters, are these more or less what you have on your chair? https://www.scooterpartscatalog.com/4in ... 154-8.html
Are you still using the dumb charger that came with the chair or are you using a PL8?



i didnt do this - but your getting the lithium right - if you want to know get a base line how much you really have - get them charged up fully good - a few cycles - you can check the pack Cap. with the Pl8 discharging - would take a long time - i would use a dumb load to speed it up also -

then do that again in a year to see - i did it and i find i have about 90ah pack now - i cant say for sure because i never did it when new to know - i just noticed its dropping faster than usual when riding - it dosnt affect me much - since i use an ADD ON with it - - i still do a full days riding easy with left over

but if i had only the chair pack - it couldnt make it - now thats just me - if you dont ride too much in a day - you should be fine - good for 30 miles i would think - also my speed dosnt help me there - and you should do better with your speed over mines with battery life
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby Fusiongoat » 23 Feb 2021, 03:29

Well, the chair is a little delayed. I got a call today. They said they are done building it but still have to do the powder coating, so I'll get it the end of next week. Anyway, I have two questions:
Can anyone (John) tell me the dimensions of the R-net 120A PM? Also, the ISM-L? I looked but could not find this information online. For Expresso I have a question about the Naugahyde drive module cover on the chair. I saw a picture of it but I am wondering what it's like on the end where the wires come through to plug into the module. It looks like it just folds over, kind of, rather than closing. Is that right? I neglected to get one of these covers, but I found something I think will work instead. I know it wouldn't be the same size for your electronics but I want to get an idea of how open it is on the end.
Thanks.
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Re: Bounder 300, Bounder 450, 120A R-Net free option

Postby expresso » 23 Feb 2021, 03:47

i got the cover for the PM mines sits on the rear over the battery box - the cover is nice - its not water proof 100% - good enough - its thick and just wrap over it - when i lift the seat up all the way - i can see it folds over the front where the wires are - - not closed over them -

next time - i take a picture actually on my chair since i have the backpack over the rear with my ADD ON - that sits over the PM - not touching it just a inch over about - - i would have to lift the chair seating up to get a good pic -
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