Need helps for adapted Fiat Doblo

[snaker]

Hi,

My family's car is a Fiat Doblo (year 2008). Everything about the car is Ok except the height from the floor to the top inside the car is too short. The height is only 125cm while the height from the ground to my head top when I seat on the wheelchair is 140cm. I cannot move into the car with my wheelchair. When I need to go to somewhere far, my dad must bring me into the car's middle seats. My disability is severe, so this job is very complicated and hard, sometimes it is not safe.

I am looking a way to resolve my problem above. By chance, I see on youtube there are adapted Fiat Doblo cars which have a height long enough. There are 2 types of adapting:
1. Making the floor lower as in this site wheelchaircars.co.uk.
2. Making the top higher as the car in this video https://youtu.be/HjRN19fO-fg

The solution #1 seems more convenient with my disability because the lower floor will help me move into the car easier. But I see it is too complicated in technical and needs professional teams who are very skilled in car modification. Unfortunately, these teams do not exist in my country (Vietnam).

So, I only has the solution #2 "making the top higher". I do not have any experience in adapted cars. So, I strongly need the helps and advices from everybody in the forum. First, I'd like to know:
- Is the car in the video https://youtu.be/HjRN19fO-fg original or was it modified to have a very high top?
- If it is original, so please tell me its model.
- If it was modified, so please show me some sites of companies which specializes in car modification. Is it possible if I would order their accessories and then I would ask a car repairman in my city help me to modify the car.

Thanks in advance. Any replies or advices are very appreciated.

[LROBBINS]

You haven't indicated where you live and what's available in different countries can be quite different. Most Doblos modified for wheelchair use have a raised roof, but in the last couple years dropped floors have become available. Both are after-factory modifications. Raised roof is somewhat simpler as you said, but I don't think either is exactly a do it yourself project. There are several modified van suppliers here in Italy, one of which is:

http://www.olmedospa.it/

We recently bought a dropped-floor VW Caddy Maxi from them (the kit they use is actually made in the Czech republic), and also have a 2001 dropped-floor, kneeling suspension Renault Kangoo from the predecessor company that now is part of Olmeda.

Ciao,
Lenny

[snaker]

@Lenny:

Thanks for your info about modified Doblo cars. I live in Vietnam where there is not even the term of adapted car. I was very surprised when I saw an adapted car on youtube. I downloaded some videos of adapted cars and showed them for car vendors in my city. They were surprised too, they have not seen them before.

After some search on google, I see adapted cars are very popular in Europe, especially in UK. Their prices for used cars are reasonable. Some companies also provide the modification service. You are really lucky

A car repairman in my city confirms that he is able to modify my car as in videos. Of course, he cannot modify the car as nice and safe as professional companies in Europe. Maybe I will try a risk with him.

[LROBBINS]

snaker,

You might want to contact Fiat Mobility and ask if they have anyone in Vietnam who can help you. Their web address is http://www.fiatautonomy.com/en/
Ciao,
Lenny

[HiRobby]

As stated by LROBBINS, you might want to contact first Fiat Mobility in your area. However, my suggestion is that you contact the professionals in the UK because it is more guaranteed that you will get good service for your car. I will personally suggest Automotive Group in the UK as they have been in the business for a long time.


Regards,
Robby

[LROBBINS]

It would be hard for Automotive Group to service a car that's located in Vietnam.

[Burgerman]

I wonder if Robby might work for them... Seems like thinly disguised spam to me!

[snaker]

There are dramatic things in my country. My dad went to the Authority to ask if car modification is allowed. The cold answer is that all modification is currently not allowed, event the modification is to serve disabled people. As I mentioned in the previous post, the term of adapted car is still strange in my country, the Authority in VN does not know it is very popular outside VN.

[Burgerman]

You mean nobody fits different wheels, seats, cheaper parts that were not made by a big manufacturer, different suspension, fits a tow bar? All are modifications. Or repairs a door/wing after a crash by welding/filler?

No custom cars? engine swaps?

[snaker]

John. I did not mean that.

In VN, every cars must pass a test "Quality Registry" every 2 years. If a car passes this test, it has a small label stuck on the front glass and then it is allowed to go on roads. Without this label, the driver would be stopped and charged by any policeman.

The Authority told that a raising roof car would not pass the test. Small modification would pass (because they do not recognize the change ).

I note that the VN laws have many defeats. The consequence is that almost VN people do not really respect the laws. Although the Authority says it is not allowed, my dad could still do it. The local Authority could still illegally give us a certification label. And no policeman dares to stop and charge a car with a severe disabled person inside. But it's better if everything could be legally implemented. And I am still searching a way to archive this.

[Burgerman]

Done correctly, a roof modification doesn't affect vehicle safety or integrity. Cant see why these inspectors would not give it a sticker!

Or just buy a high roof van, bolt a lift into the rear doors. http://www.vantagemobility.com/wp-conte ... ayLift.pdf

Even the tiny fiat Doblo, can be ordered direct from the factory with a 62.5 inch or 1588mm tall load space, and higher inside. No modification needed. http://www.vanuser.co.uk/?p=1476

http://www.nationwide-cars.co.uk/vans/f ... d28894.asp

Bigger...

There are hundreds.

[snaker]

Thanks Burgerman, the Doblo of XL size seems a perfect solution. Currently, the car price in VN is the most expensive in the World due to crazy Tax, it's 2-3 times higher then the one in EU. And it's not easy to order a car which is not ready in stock in VN. VN and EU just signed a contract (agreement ???) related to Tax, hoping things would change and I could get one .

There is a true story. Some years ago, 3 young British men had a tour in VN. They wanted a long trip from the North to the South of VN (about 1.500km). So they intended to buy an used car in good condition of $5.000. Very soon, they recognized that in VN, with $5.000, they could only buy 4 wheels (not a full car).

[Burgerman]

That's crazy. You can buy a perfectly good car here for £100 ready to drive. It will be old and abused, but safe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R91IjOfED4 watch this... first 3 minutes.

That's the same price as a meal for 2 in the hotel across the road.

[snaker]

At last, these British men bought this 'car'. It costs $5.000
https://youtu.be/Nd5ka91fkDo

[Burgerman]

Vietnam looks interesting. Once its finished I will come and take a look! How do you cope?

[snaker]

Nothing is clear to me now in roof modification. My dad went to a garage in my city. It looks poor so we are afraid that they could not safely implement it. We also tried to contact to a group of 'Fiat lovers' in VN. They recommended to some garages which are specialized in Fiat car modification. They refused because it is over their skills and they have not done the same things before.

My dad also needs a special paper or label like a privilege for disability. In case he has to drive the modified car without me (a disabled human) inside. I am 100% sure that VN policemen will recognize a raised roof Doblo on road as an UFO. And then they will stop and charge it. But he still does not know who/where issues this paper

VN is operating reversely against the rest of the World. If you come to VN, you will find many 'interesting' things . In VN, with £100, you can eat in a month (30 days, 2 meals/day) as every Vietnameses. VN foods are much more delicious than UK and they are good for health. Beleive in me about that

Back to the car modification. In EU, with a budget of $5.000, is it possible to buy an adapted car in good enough condition. the cost needs to include all tax and fees on EU side.

[Burgerman]

It all depends on:

How hard you look.
Your definition of "good enough"
Your definition of "adapted"...

[Burgerman]

Take a look online, ebay etc. Try USA they are cheap! I bought my new van in the US because it was HALF the cost.

[tutatu]

A car repairman in my city confirms that he is able to modify my car as in videos. Of course, he cannot modify the car as nice and safe as professional companies in Europe. Maybe I will try a risk with him.

I had luck to find one brave repairman and he adapted my car. I'm 140 height and had same problem like yours. I don't have Doblo because it's shorter than my Citroen Jumpy (in UK is Dispatch) or Fiat Scudo or Peugeot Expert so I don't need to fold or move out second row of the seats. Knee and footplates will hit back of the seats when you enter with chair.
On annual technical and registration, six years back, no one asks me what is with the vehicle. Always registering without problems. By law I have to apply for customization, but I didn't.

I have 10 or 11 mm steel plates floor, it is strong and welded like a battle tank.

If you have "Quality Registry" issues, maybe you consider some bigger van and electric ramp to avoid chopping?

But I always prefer lower floor than high roof. It is significant difference in gravity forces.

Here is my NON ''factory professional cosmetically beautiful vehicle''

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84192064/internet/jumpy/29112009838.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84192064/internet/jumpy/29112009839.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84192064/internet/jumpy/29112009840.jpg

these floor pads was for my old shitty chair and tires when it's wet.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84192064/internet/jumpy/2013-09-27%2015.54.27.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84192064/internet/jumpy/2013-09-27%2015.54.09.jpg

and here is with the closed doors
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84192064/internet/jumpy/2013-05-18%2019.03.37.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84192064/internet/jumpy/2013-05-18%2019.03.47.jpg

[snaker]

I nearly give up. The pictures of your manually adapted car encourage me move on !!!

Your citroen looks very likely my white doblo. At first look, I missed it's a doblo.

Could you give me some extra info about your adapted car?

- Had the repairman modified some cars before yours? Or your car was just his first project?
- Did he have already a draft of modification before. Or he only made the draft just after you asked him modify the car?
- As I know the modification will require special tools, kits and replacements (i.e the steel floor of battle tank ). Did he manually make all in his garage? Or did he buy them from other sources (so which sources)?
- How long time did it take him to complete the modification?

[Burgerman]

That modification is at the sort of level that a custom car builder can do in his garage at home. Quite easily. But will require time and enthusiasm. No special parts needed.

[snaker]

Updated:

- I had the permission from the local Authority for adapting the car.
- I found the right garage to do the modification. It's an official garage of Hyundai at my city - having full tools for car modification. They agreed to raise roof for my doblo. They told me that the final adapted car might not be as nice as the ones in EU but it will be completely safe. The project is going to start very soon.

Now, I need the help from everybody here for the ramp. I confess that I even did not know the term 'wheelchair ramp' before, it does not exist in my country. I just saw it (on images/videos only) after I had joined the board.

I have some questions about the wheelchair ramp:
- As I know the angle is as small as good. But if the angle is small, the ramp must be long -> it will be heavy and take lots space even when folded. So, I am searching a 'neutralizing solution' -> the angle is a bit larger, the ramp is a bit shorter. Do you know what angle is ideal for a ramp?
- Usually, how do you get a ramp? Is it built-in when you bought an adapted car or did you buy it separately or did you hand-make it at home by yourself?
- Are there well-known brands for ramps? Could you recommend for me some places selling good ramps with a reasonable cost?

[Burgerman]

The "ramp" is the easy part. Just a flat bit of metal with sides welded on.

Depends on the car/manfacturer/conversion specialist. In most cases the conversion company make their own, and its not just a ramp. All work in conjunction with rear suspension that lowers down as the ramp deploys electrically, the floor is lowered internally, either at the rear end only or the complete floor area to ensure a shallow ramp angle and adequate headroom, low enough chair height. Its a combination of things. These companies dont just raise the roof and bolt on a ramp generally unless its a large commercial van.

Eg http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... -roadshow/ All short ramps, lowered floors, lowering suspension etc.

They also manufacture the modified floorpans, internal plastic panels, seating and trim, often rerouting of moving exhausts, fuel tanks, suspension, all wiring, brake pipes fuel or air conditioning pipes, and wiring to suit the modified floor. etc. In all a LOT of changes and fabrication work to do the job.

If you dont, and just do things just to comply with the law, ramp/roof for eg like the Awful taxis we get around here, you will end up sat up in the sky, like the pope, and a long, steep ramp. This affect stability and safety too. Eg: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/fiat-do ... ar-van.htm

Unfortunately theres no alternative. It means a lot of modification you probably are not expecting. I honestly think you would be better importing a ready modified vehicle from an existing specialist.

[LROBBINS]

Most Doblo here in Italy are not fitted with ramps, nor do they have lowered floors. They have a raised roof and use platform lifts. Within the last couple years, lowered floor Doblos with ramps have started to be made, but they do not have kneeling suspensions. Our 2001 Kangoo does have a lowered floor, hydraulic kneeling suspension and very short ramp (< 1 meter), but our new VW Caddy Maxi (yes, with the cheating diesel) has a lowered floor and no kneel, so the ramp is substantially longer. Completely manual but spring counterbalanced so it's actually easy to handle. (Remember, we are transporting Rachi, she's not driving.) The car is longer as well, so parallel parking would be more difficult, but most parking here is nose in anyway.
Ciao,
Lenny

[Burgerman]

I like the cheating. Its sensible. Its what I would end up doing anyway.

More power, better drivability, and better economy...

The CO2/other emissions bullshit is crazy. Even if its true that these gasses cause global warming (many disagree, and many disagree with the amount, and so on) nobody actually showed that a warmer planet is bad overall yet. And that even if the we wanted to "fix" natural warming, we couldn't in any case. And there's way more evidence that its actually a good thing anyway.

They just made the obvious sensible choice for us. Without having to fix it myself.

[snaker]

@Burgerman:

You did not know how hard we faced to get this permission. Maybe nowhere on The Earth except VN, a disabled person has to fight to get the simple and essential right for adapting his own car - it's me. The permission is important because without it, no garage in my city dares to modify a car. The director of the Department of Traffic and Transportation - the highest person in my province who is responsible to grant this permission, coldly said NO to us. We were very angry. I intended to send the request to the Minister, if he still says NO, I will post his answer to world wide, to let the whole world see how cruel the VN government is. Fortunately, like a football penalty at the 90th minute, my aunt suddenly found a paper (circular letter ???) officially released by the Ministry of Traffic and Transportation itself which said the disabled people have the right to do any vehicle adaptation to fit their disability. So the war ended, they must grant the permission. We got it but had to lose too lots time for this stupid thing.

Importing a ready adapted vehicle from abroad to VN is impossible. Not only because of a crazily high cost but alot of required papers that I cannot fulfill. Many things in VN are strange to you - very likely in the "Hunger game" movie -> "Strange things did happen here".

[Burgerman]

Then you are better to use a larger van, already tall enough and a lift in place of a ramp. The van doesent need to be this big however.





Safer, cheaper as nothing to modify other than a few bolts, and much better usability in the end.

[LROBBINS]

The Volkswagen cheating was to "meet" Nitrous Oxide, not CO2, standards. NOX is definitely a serious matter as it is a major player in the smog that makes the air unbreathable in so many cities. They later discovered some (less frequent, and more modest) cheating on CO2 standards, but that's a minor issue compared to the Nitrous Oxide 40-fold over the U.S. legal limit. Rumor is that on the 2015 model-year vehicles, a software fix will be enough to bring them into compliance in the U.S. Standards are more lenient here to begin with, which if you're ever in Firenze (Florence) when there's a temperature inversion in the bowl it sits in you too would not be happy about. Hence it appears that for our 4-mo old car it will also be just a firmware re-load, and some loss of performance (regrettable as it really is a sprightly little box) and perhaps increase fuel consumption. On the 2014 and earlier, looks like some serious mechanical re-work, such as a urea injection and recovery system, will be involved. OUCH.

[snaker]

@Burgerman: VN is another world, very few mini cargo vans to chose. There is not any van as in your picture here. The best one is a Hyundai Strarex but it is still not suitable for wheelchair users. Importing is impossible as I explained in the previous post.

@Lenny: Your link http://www.olmedospa.it is very valuable. There are many detail pictures that help the garage here recognize what is a raised roof doblo. They will follow these pictures to draft a design.

I suppose the angle should be in range 10-15 degrees. So the ramp length should be about 2m (or 7ft). I found a ramp on ebay, did anybody have experiences with this ramp? It is really good?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Wheelchair-Ra ... HKpVrBk00Q

[LROBBINS]

Hi Snaker,

I think that all of the Olmedo vans with ramps do have dropped floors. If you are not lowering the floor on yours, you will need a longer ramp than they use. For manual chair users, they also off a winch to help pull the chair aboard - you might think about that for yours even if you are using a power chair. Small winches are very cheap, but you would have to remember to also use power on the chair so you aren't just dragging the tires up the ramp but rolling them.

Ciao,
Lenny