WAV battery problems...

[aspieman]

Hi all,
So for my third WAV I finally bit the bullet and bought a VW Transporter T5 2007 vintage, with a Hubmatic lift and electric sliding door. I have been using it for a week now and while it is a great vehicle to drive (130hp 2.5 Tdi and 6 speed tiptronic transmission) I have not had such a good experience with the lift, with failing battery power.
It has two Optima yellow top 55ah batteries on a split charging system, and whilst I have had no problem with the starting battery, the auxilliary battery seems to run down really quickly using the lift and door. I have got stuck a couple of times with insufficient battery power to get me elevated back into the van. I have had to resort to using the lift with the engine running which is not an ideal situation.
I've checked the alternator output and it is charging both batteries, (and with extra load of lights etc.) at a regulated 14.38 volts so that looks good. I have been charging the aux battery on the drive too. I probably don't do enough miles to get a good vehicle charge in between using the lift.
The van came with a spare pair of yellow top Optima's (charged but condition unknown) and I was considering adding them in parallel to the aux battery to make a three battery bank, but I wondered if anyone on here has any advice before I go that route.
My previous van (1.6 twin cam Kangoo) had a 72ah starting battery and 95ah auxilliary battery (in the back) on a National Luna split charging system that I installed, and it worked well with lowering suspension and hydraulic tailgate and ramp, so to me the Transporter by comparison looks a bit puny on the battery front.
How do I test the batteries to see if they are fit for purpose or not?
Would you advise fitting extra auxilliary batteries or just charging the aux battery every day on the drive?
Any comments greatfully received.
Steve

[Burgerman]

I would advise that one battery should be adequate even without an auxiliary battery. But first you need to test all of your batteries properly. Inc starter battery.

They need fully charged (16 hours at CC/CV 14.7V and 13.6v float and capacity tested. And load tested. If you don't have the gear or knowledge to do that properly then really you can only replace them. The daft quick testers that battery places use are a waste of time.

Then you need to examine the charge system. How does it work? Why is it needed rather than just hooking all batteries in parallel?
I see no reason to have a separate charge system at all, unless the lift battery has a continuous drain for some reason?

ONE decent deep cycle and starter battery should easily be adequate for all duties. Two in parallel even better. But to do that they must all be the same and preferably Yellow Optimas or Enersys Odyssey batteries. And connected with heavy cables. Nothing cheaper is any good.

Next measure battery discharge current while parked and turned off. It should be LOW. Low means a few 10s of mA only. If not find out why. Or it will forever have a flat battery.

But part charging of the auxilliary battery at low amps, means it wont last long how it is currently configured. And if charging through a split charge diode setup, will be under voltage too. And so that battery is almost guaranteed to be toast.

[aspieman]

Thanks for the info Burgerman. It appears that the auxilliary battery has had it as it doesn't hold a charge overnight, so I swapped it for one of the spares and that operates the lift ok and is holding its charge. I checked the current drain on that battery and its 112ma, so I need to do some investigating there to find out where its going.
As for split charging systems, the idea is to preserve your starting power so overuse of ancillary equipment won't leave you stranded, not being able to start the engine. This has happened to me twice with the Renault when it only had a one battery system, and I had to call Green Flag. After that I installed the split charging system which doesn't use a diode pack but an electronic controller which senses the battery voltages and diverts the charge to the auxilliary battery when needed but always giving priority to the starting battery. Being stuck in a station car park at night in sub-zero temperatures for an hour is no fun, believe me.

[Burgerman]

112ma?

So that's 1.12Ah per 10 hours, or about 2.3Ah per day. If you have a 55Ah battery, (4.2L?) and its deep cycle, as it should be, then it will run a new battery flat (and ruined) in about 20 days.

As leaving ANY battery in any state but 100% charged causes a degree of Sulfation, and the more deeply discharged it is the more it happens, it will soon make your 55Ah battery a 20Ah battery and this will get worse over time. That only gives you about a week... To fully charge the optima needs at least 5 hours at CV of 14.4V to 14.7V.

I have a much better solution. Connect the vehicle battery to the lift battery with 10sqmm cables. Add 100A fuse. Throw away the split charge stuff. Fit a GOOD deep cycle starter battery like the Odyssey 68Ah PC1500 (fits same place the optima comes out, has a higher cranking Amp, and greater capacity, and is deep cycle capable.

Then rewire your chair by adding a 12V charge/starting system. Then even if your van battery is dead, you can operate the lift from the chairs battery from OUTSIDE of the van. And you can start the van from the chair from inside of it, or outside... Whats more you can charge the chair, as you drive at up to 100A (50 Amps per parallel battery). Then no more worries. But fit a disconnect switch for the lift if you intend leaving it for longer than a week to stop it draining the vehicle battery regardless.

See: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/starter.mp4 My carers van, left lights on overnight in the winter. Stone dead. Just clicks...

Fit this to your vehicle.


One OUTSIDE. Anywhere you can reach it.


One INSIDE. In or under the dash. In use here charging my chair as I drive at 50A. In my van I get in, and plug in, and it will start the van. And once running, charge the chair...


Page... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/faster- ... arging.htm

[rustyjames]

I've got a 2000 VW T4 and if I let it sit a week the battery is flat enough that it won't start. I only use the main battery for the lift, door opener and powerseat base. I start it up before I use any of that apparatus. I haven't really dug into it yet, but I believe the drain is mainly from the remote RF receiver for those items.

[LROBBINS]

The car itself will have some continuous, parasitic drain too. Even without the lift etc., after a few weeks the battery will be down, though perhaps not completely exhausted if it's not already old and tired. Even if the computer(s) are completely powered down, and they may be asleep rather than truly off, the DC-DC converters that power them will drain a bit and bypass capacitors will have a little leakage.

[Burgerman]

I discovered that the solenoid on my tie down stayed energized on release... Faulty micro switch. That killed a good battery in 7 days. Always flat.

I think the previous 112mA on that lift was only on the lift. And its separate battery?

The car itself will have some continuous, parasitic drain too. Even without the lift etc.,

Usually 10 to 50mA. Anything over 30mA is suspicious. Some air conditioning equipment and other equipment can take FOUR to FIVE HOURS to go to sleep fully! So dont do a quick measure!

[aspieman]

Thanks for the additional info Burgerman. I really like the idea of using the chair batteries as a standby power source. I have often thought that we are sitting on a considerable amount of battery power that could be really useful but never figured a practical way of tapping into it. I take it your loop with a plug on each end links the batteries in series for 24v.
Just out of interest, I used 16mm welding cable on the Renault batteries. Its rubber covered not PVC, chemical and burn proof, and it has lots of fine strands so its very flexible. I bought it from a welding supplier. It made things a lot easier when routing it through the dashboard and under floor trims.
I have found the feed wire that is causing the drain but struggling with time at the moment to trace it back. I keep finding compartments in the van crammed full of wiring and relays, so it should be fun finding where it goes. Hopefully tomorrow I will have time for a proper look.

[aspieman]

I have now found the source of the battery drain. The wire on the AUX terminal of the split charge controller (battery cable removed) feeds a fuse-board which supplies the two (driver and passenger) wheelchair locks and the radio receiver. They are each taking 40ma so there is the 120ma drain.
The installers must have been aware of this so they fitted the DEFA battery charger which has a small mains socket on the front bumper.



This is the cubby hole in the passenger side footwell that houses the lift hydraulic valves and the wheelchair lock controller (passenger one) and also the fuse-board.



This is the fuse-board. The top row of fuses is fed from the wire in the first picture and the bottom row is fed from the starter battery via the solenoid and ignition. What I intend to do is put a waterproof switch in the front grille that will isolate the top row of fuses (the bottom row is isolated by the ignition) when I am not using the van. I seems more logical to me to stop the drain rather than use more power with a charger to compensate for it.
I have removed the three offending fuses for testing.

[Burgerman]

I would rip the lot out inc the extra battery as its all un-needed. Save about 60lb and all the mass of complication that doesn't work. Then:

Fit one new high quality deep cycle/starter battery -- odyssey pc1500 battery or bigger if it will fit, for all jobs.

Fit a 30 watt solar panel, and a tiny charge controller, on the roof, laid flat - not a window. Not a temporary solution.
Use something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/Photonic-Unive ... KD4Q7D8AAF

All your problems go away. Battery always topped up and 100% full. No matter how long you leave it.


More:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20w-25w-40w-5 ... 1317562536
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25w-PV-Solar- ... 1344604142

There are thin ones too. But around 25 to 30 watts not less, and with charge controller.

All modern cars should COME with this built in.

[aspieman]

Thanks, I will definitely look into fitting a solar panel. There is a huge expanse of almost flat dashboard on top so it may well fit on there.
Since the yellow top optima's are very expensive batteries, I am not keen on replacing them until they die, but I may link them in parallel and get rid of the split charging system. They are mounted together on their side in a specially made cage and are a tight fit in that space so it would be a lot of work to fit a different size battery.

[Burgerman]

Thanks, I will definitely look into fitting a solar panel. There is a huge expanse of almost flat dashboard on top so it may well fit on there.

No. It will not work there!

Fit a 30 watt solar panel, and a tiny charge controller, on the roof, laid flat - not a window. Not a temporary solution.

A. dash not big enough.
B. as soon as you have it shaded, by a roof, face wrong direction, etc you lose most of the days sun hours.
C. as soon as you put it behind a windscreen you lose most of its power regardless.

Doing that is a waste of time and money, and will result in a dead batter at the same time.

Since the yellow top optima's are very expensive batteries, I am not keen on replacing them until they die, but I may link them in parallel and get rid of the split charging system.

Old or tired batteries can have an in built high self discharge.
Even if not batteries in a different state of 'wear' or age still should not be connected together.
So unless you have good test equipment such as the PL8 charger I use to test and graph performance and condition and the knowledge to interpret what you measure then you cannot know any of this.

So if it was me I would test. Only if as good as new I would keep them. Or buy 2 replacements. Are they both yellow? 55Ah?

[Burgerman]

I have a similar system for the same reason. I was on my bed for about 5.5 months. My battery reads 13.5V.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271647694359
and
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40W-40-Watt-M ... SwgZVTxOrZ 40w Velcro(ed) to my roof. Cannot be seen. Semi flexible. Mono, one bit, 2mm thick. Cable is thin tucked behind rear door rubber. Charge controller is about hand sized, behind rear plastic shroud in the tailgate area. Cant be seen. Connected to the first 12V wire I found that was live with the key out... Or http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lensun-20W-30 ... 1326831575

Charges at about 2A max in the Nevada desert in high summer. And about 1.5 is the highest you see in the UK. But on a typical day half that. In winter maybe a 200mA peak for 4 or 5 hours in the day. Remember that yours is 100mA day and night. But even in mid January you will get just enough to stay on top with a 30 Watt panel. 40 is better, but even bigger isn't a problem because the charge controller will not allow any overcharge. It just catches up faster.

[Burgerman]

These are flexi, gluable, high efficiency , waterproof, fit and forget.
But not cheap. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-50W-Porta ... 51c12b1c0e

More http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Lensun-Solar/f ... 34.c0.m322

[aspieman]

A. dash not big enough.
B. as soon as you have it shaded, by a roof, face wrong direction, etc you lose most of the days sun hours.
C. as soon as you put it behind a windscreen you lose most of its power regardless.

Doing that is a waste of time and money, and will result in a dead batter at the same time.

Sorry, I should have read your post properly!
To be honest, I have never looked at solar panels before so I shall do some reading up.
These are the batteries - both the same.

[Burgerman]

These are the batteries - both the same.

But treated differently electrically. So they may look great, and one may be great/other toast! How can you know?

I use this:



And more importantly, the knowledge required to make sense of what it tells me. I can charge, or discharge correctly to three decimal places. And any Amp or voltage level, to a voltage point or to a known chosen CV point on charge or discharge.

Those pictures show a valiant attempt at fixing a problem in the wrong way.
First, WHY is the drain so high? That is the real problem You cant fix it.
If you are stuck with it, then feed power don't add a bigger bucket! It will still be dead in the end.

[Burgerman]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351133178894? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Arrived today to replace the older style alloy one on my van roof.

This is same physical size and 50 watts. That's going to work, because even in the depths of winter it will make 5 watts a few hours a day. Enough to keep on top.

Not cheap but much more fun than buying new batteries and no start...

Making 5V here in my LED illuminated room... And a cheap £12 solar charge controller as my old one isn't very good. (home made zenner etc)

[aspieman]

Impressive looking battery diagnostics and charging kit...
The solar panel looks good but a bit pricey. Having looked at the spec on the Lensun panels, they seem a lot better made than the regular panels so probably worth it.

I have spent a few days going through the add on wiring in the van, looking for suspect connections, and I have found plenty. Some of these auto electricians shouldn't be allowed to touch car electrics.

Mostly, the original conversion wiring is to a very good standard with connections soldered and heat shrinked, but I have found some where bare wires are twisted together with a bit of insulating tape wrapped round. A couple of crimp connectors *fell* off the end of the wires!

It's painstaking work but I think it will pay off in the end - I don't want or need unreliable electrics. I found 6 metres of *spare* 15 core control cables stuffed behind the centre console! Why can't they cut cables to length when doing these jobs? Under the dash is a total mess of zip ties and tape!

At least the battery problem is sorted for now so the van is usable. When I have finished untangling the wiring and making it a bit more traceable, and soldering all the dodgy connections, I will re-look at the charging system and a solar panel.

But for now, I have to make an exhaust rear section for the Renault, (garage wanted £540 to do it) so I have just pulled out my TIG welder from years of being boxed up - just need some gas and filler rods!

[Burgerman]

A couple of crimp connectors *fell* off the end of the wires!

Now you know why I love crimps...



Seriously, stand back and look at it. Its all way more complex and heavy than it need be. Requires 2 batteries, and its not needed. And all said, it doesn't work.
More batteries isn't the answer because it justs slows the inevitable. Removing the drain, or replacing it is what's needed.

Junk all of it. Fit one new, healthy quality battery. (Or 2 smaller ones in parallel).
And add largish PV panel, to be sure it copes when dull + charge controller and its always going to be fully charged.

[salixfire]

I know this is a bit of an old thread but I thought I'd post here anyway. Have you updated this solar panel since you last posted or the charge controller? I think I've found a car that is suitable for me and want to add a solar panel as soon as possible as I don't tend to drive every day, sometimes it will not be driven for weeks at a time. Do you have any current recommendations for a solar panel and charge controller? How do you attach them to your car? Is there anything in particular I should do before fitting or to keep in mind while fitting? Thank you

[Burgerman]

In this order.

1. Fit a QUALITY 50 or 60 watt solar panel on the roof with clear RTV silicone sealant as used for aquariums, bath sealer, etc.

2. Run the wires from panel to the charge controller, dont connect them yet.

3. Connect its output to to any permanently "live" wire you can find. Theres a bunch of these in a chrysler vans under the right side plastic trim cover that work the ramp etc in the rear. So its simple. Leave the controller loose under the floor compartment.

4. Set it to 13.3V for the 6 or 8 summer months. Set it to 13.3V for the 6 summer months. (Set to 13.6V for the winter low light colder months). THEN connect the solar panel wires. You must connect to battery first.

5. Hide the wires behind trim/carpet etc.

6. Buy a nice shiny new Odyssey PC1500... Since now it will keep for at least a decade.

Doing the complete job took under an hour, and the panel was placed on the silicone, and left with some heavy books on all 4 corners till next day.


Used these on mine:
NOT cheap. But will last. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351133178894? ... EBIDX%3AIT

Only one of 4 different ones I tried that does the job really well. Its MPPT tracking, and adjustable voltage. The small 10A one is all you need. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-10-20-30- ... QdrGMZpgDg

[Burgerman]

On roof... Every time I check the battery its sat at a perfect 13.3V. It drops to 12.9 over night. And within 30 mins of daylight is sat right back at a perfect 13.3 in the day. Perfect for long term float storage.

[salixfire]

Thank you